4 months of no contact

[BusynMember]

Witz, your post made me so very sad. Maybe I was relating some of it to my own situation. Although I have kids who are very engaged in my life, I do have one who left us and the pain of that was hard to get over. I can't imagine all of my kids rejecting me. I am so sorry for that...there really are no adequate words to express how I feel about that. I hope you and your husband can enjoy one another...that is something not everybody has. It is a gift.

Onto your father. I can't say the word here that expresses what I think of not just what he did to you but his final, "As always, we love you." WTF? I was also disinherited, although my mother wasn't particularly rich. That, of course, was not the point. Disinheriting a child is saying, "You are not my child" to me. It said to me, "You are so horrible, I won't even mention you when I pass and...haha...I hope it hurts you and defeats you forever." Knowing my mom I don't think she meant the second part...that was in MY mind...I am sure she meant the first part though. There was no obituary written for her, which I found interesting. I think nobody knew what to say when "beloved mother of..." came up, but I never asked. If my mother had written, "As always, I love you" after s slap like that, I don't know what I would have done. I can't even imagine what I would have done to get in my own thoughts on that and then put her on forever ignore.

When my mom had a brain tumor she made it clear to all that I was not to know about it. I have no idea why. Did she think I was going to rush to her bedside and try to strangle her? Everyone kept the secret, even my father, who I am on good terms with whom was not even married to her anymore. I found out by a fuke. It was years later. So when Mother-Of-My-Siblings and my womb donor developed brain cancer, eight years later, I knew about it, but felt so far from her and remembered she hadn't wanted me around for her brain tumor so I did not help my sister, I did not visit, I did not feel bad about detaching from the entire situation. Once she had surgery, which she should never have had, she had no memory of anything so I did call her a few times just because guilt caught up to me and I knew she wouldn't be abusive or hang up. She did not know me. Interestingly, I was the last one to talk to her before sh e died. I did go to her funeral, mostly to comfort those who were grieving. My kids did not go. She had stopped seeing them when my daughter Julie was six, was barely there before that, and she never even sent them a birthday card so they had no relationship with her. She was mean to 37, who was the only one she had talked to in his teens and that was only once. I won't go into details, but it was basically a phone call to get his social security number, which he didn't know, so she called him a liar. That was one time he didn't lie and it upset him and he asked, "Why is she calling me after all this time?"

Unlike some people, who are horrified at the thought, I can understand how somebody could have no feelings toward a DNA relative. I love my immediate family to death...husband and kids...would die for them. But my deceased mother, my surviving sister and my brother...I have no feelings toward them. The feelings died from so many years of abuse. Dead emotions. Yes, you can have them for a relative. I can even understand some people having no feelings for a child they gave birth to. I know that is a big taboo and is not ever spoken about, but some adult children do such horrible things that...well, I'll just say that I can understand it. DNA does not equal love, responsibility or contact in my mind. It is really up to each individual person and hopefully, at least on this forum, we all have the empathy to understand. And not to judge, but to try to understand.

Witz, I get it. I know you love your kids. I didn't write THAT part for you. That rambling paragraph was about ME and my mother and siblings only, not about anyone else.

Your post brought up losts of memories that are usually buried far in the back of my mind. I know how incredibly weird it is to not having feelings either way for some of your family members, but...I don't. My mother is another story. I don't hate her. I dislike the person she was to me, and I pity her for having missed out on knowing my wonderful family.

Ok, rant over.

 

[witzend]

{{{{{{{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}}}}}} from one family misfit to another, MWM.

The argument that started the entire detachment from my family was between my dad and I. L's dad had put her into foster care when she was a 15 year old wild thing after having let her grow up on her own since she was about 8 and traipsing one woman after another through the house in front of her. My sister & I had an argument, and of course everyone piled on with "the perfect one". They all started writing "letters of concern" about my attitude to L in her foster home, and L showed them to the foster mother, saying, "See? Everyone hates my mother." The foster mom told me what had been done, and asked that my family step back. Of course, instead my parents had to drive the 300 miles to see her, and got her father to back them up. Somehow that turned into "Lie to your mom (me) about it" from both her dad and them. Within three days my parents had hunted down a friend at her workplace to tell her that they had gone to K Falls to see L.

It wasn't that I objected to them seeing L, it was that they told her to lie to me. She'd been there for 8 months already and they had never gone to see her before, but once they could stir up mess for me they were on it like white on rice, and we were pretty close at the time. I saw them at least weekly and spoke to my mom on the phone almost every day. I went and I told my dad that it wasn't ok for him to tell my kids to lie to me. Of course there was a lot more said than that, and it went on for several hours but I kept bringing it back to that. As an adult and as their parent I needed to know that he could deal with me if I had a problem, not use my kids against me. I told him one last time, and he said, "I can do anything I want with your kids. Everyone knows who I am (?) and that I'm a good honest person and everyone knows you're nothing. Try to stop me." I stood up and walked to the door and said, "Leave my kids alone." My mom, who had sat through the entire ordeal saying nothing stood up and grabbed me by the arm and said, "We love you." She startled me so that I jumped and said, "Don't touch me!" as I walked out the door to the tune of my dad telling me that I'd better be careful driving home - something he'd never said in my life - it was a death wish. This became in my family's story the day I shoved my mother to the ground, and this is what they told my kids. M knew the truth at the end, and so he knew that this was why it was important for him to tell me about his death himself.

So, my dad making sure that M didn't tell me when he died was one last coup de grace from him to make sure that I knew that I was nothing, and he could do what he wanted with my kids and use them to hurt me even beyond the grave. Well, my dad, and if M ever comes around it will be by sheer force of will because clearly I have nothing to offer that any of them think that they want. But I'm not sticking around for the mess they make of their lives.

Echolette, there aren't many families as messed up as mine is. I hope that you will find peace and know that we don't judge your decision.

 

[BusynMember]

Witz, how sad. I give my mother this: She reviled both me AND my children so she did not try to turn them against me. She just turned everyone else against me and everyone agreed with her, although I'm not sure why, other than my siblings desperately wanted Mommy's love and would agree to anything she said about me to get it. That was one way to her heart...trash me.

Echo, most families are not as screwed up as mine was either. Seems like both Witz and I are kind of puzzled as to why we became the focus of our family's dysfunction, but, hey, it is common to delegate somebody the black sheep who can not do anything right. Even the good I tried to do was twisted. I adopted kids. You know why? (This is my mother's version). It wasn't that I cared about all kids, those around the world and in our foster care system (actually it WAS my reason, but she did not believe it). Nope. It was the MONEY I made by adopting children. Aha! The enourmous subsidies I got for each child. My God, I was RICH because of all the adoptions!!!! This is what she told everyone.

The problem was, it wasn't true. The only adopted child of mine who qualified for any subsidy was Sonic who we got $425 a month for. You get no subsidy for international adoption (Julie from Korea and Scott from Hong Kong). In fact, YOU pay big. You get no money for a private adoption. Jumper was adopted through a lawyer, so WE paid again. Wow, did we get rich adopting kids. It really hurt my feelings that they felt that way about me. I am not perfect and never was, but one thing I know is that I have a heart of gold and that's why I did it. I could have had more biolotgical kids or no more kids at all. Now that we are done adopting kids, I have gotten involved in dog rescue and there is no subsidy to care for a dog.

So I was selfish. My mother said so. My sister said so. My brother said so. My mother's brother, my uncle, used to call me "the brat, when I was four years old and my mother laughed and encouraged it. I wasn't a brat at all. I did throw tantrums because I was filled with anxiety and very depressed, even that young. But, hey, if Uncle, who Mother thought was the smartest person in the universe because he had a Ph.D in Chemical Engineering, said I was a brat, by God, he had a right to say it and it was true. I still remember him calling me a brat.

There was just so much. It is truly amazing that I learned how NOT to be a parent by my family and have good relationships with my kids, except for the one we adopted at age six who left everyone. I also have a loving husband, another miracle. Trust me, that bothered my mother because my sister had a jerky husband and my brother never married at all.

I don't know how I got so off topic. Witz's post I guess.

Echo, I'm sure it will be different for you. I am so hoping your life works out the way you want it to, in every aspect.

 

[Tiredof33]

It's so hard when children decide to go no contact with their loved ones. When I started telling difficult child 'no more money' and he knew I meant it, he decided I wasn't worth keeping in touch with.

Drugs and alcohol make my difficult child's life so much more difficult than it needs to be. His relationship with another difficult child has compounded the problem. She has him convinced I should send money each month to support him if I really loved him. Girlie told difficult child's sibling (they never met in person) that difficult child told her what a bad childhood he had, sibling was always jealous of him, and sibling put out cigarettes on him and I did nothing about it. No one smoked in our family, and certainly I would have (or someone) seen cigarette burns on him. They are eight years apart, and that in itself makes it a crazy allegation. Amazingly, there are no scars. difficult child and girlie have been off/on for close to five years.

difficult child had friends (some PCs) before girlie. She has severed all ties between him, his friends, now all of his family. in my opinion, it is so selfish and self centered for no one, not a single person, to be able to contact difficult child. Sadly, now no one asks me about him.

Family dynamics are so mysterious, it's crazy how some people can hold a grudge, or remember their version of events, for so many years without letting things go. That being said, I have also reached an age where I am not bending over backwards to accommodate every whim of people I don't agree with.

Too many of my family loves drama and gossip, and my aging mother is usually right in the center of it. in my opinion, they are bored and really need to find something else to entertain them. I try very hard to just let it pass over without getting involved.

We can not make our difficult children get help and we can not make them stop using drugs. It's a sad situation.

(((hugs and blessings)))

 

[nlj]

difficult child told her what a bad childhood he had

Family dynamics are so mysterious, it's crazy how some people can hold a grudge, or remember their version of events, for so many years without letting things go.

Too many of my family loves drama and gossip, and my aging mother is usually right in the center of it. in my opinion, they are bored and really need to find something else to entertain them.

These are common threads for many of us Tired. The twisted version of memories, the drama, the unpleasant mother in the centre of spite and gossip.

This thread seems to have gone a bit off course. Sorry Echo! Where are you? I didn't see you in London yesterday

 

[witzend]

The funny - odd - thing about my parents writing me off as the "bad seed", my sisters and brother have all been married at least 3 times. My one sister has been divorced three times. My "perfect" sister is an alcoholic and she's married to a man who is a convicted felon who over a period of 3 years bilked shareholders out of $800 Million in an accounting scam in a case so clever that they use it as a teaching tool at law schools. Then again, it was a white collar crime and he served his sentence with an ankle monitor at their very nice home in the ski resort, so I've been told I'm a liar if I mention it. Um, yeah. Why would I come up with a story like that? "Google it yourself, or should I print the decision, fines and sentencing out for you?"

Silly me, being happily married to the same man for 28 years & none of us having ever been a convicted felon...

 

[BusynMember]

Witz, usually the black sheep is the one who calls the others out on their BS. I know I did. None of us were druggies or in jail or married three times, but we all had lots of problems. However, the other two pretended the abuse in our family did nto go on and I pointed it out. I mean, I was a kid when I started doing it and I never did let anyone get away with their crapola. Now I look back and see I would have been accepted if I had only shut my mouth and maybe, in hindsight, that's what I would have done.

But I think it is actually better for me that I did not stay close to them and become like them. They are toxic and I don't think DNA is important. It's who cares for you in their heart who is your real family and vice versa.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Lucy, if Echo has decided to go incognito, she may be wearing her underwear.

Have you been checking for American ladies with their panties on?

:O)

Cedar

 

[Echolette]

Lucy,

I didn't go to London yet, I'll be there the second week in December...I can't wait to see it lit up with Christmas lights!

I am at work, and I am wearing underwear because it was 21 degrees when I left home this morning...a lady's nether parts need protecting sometimes!

I did facebook message difficult child. I just said "hi." 24 hours later he responded with "hi mom, I miss you" and a heart. I waited, then responded by saying we could have coffee or lunch, the next day or next week. He waited till after "the next day" had passed, then said he was thinking next week.

MWM and Suzirs comments lead me to this a lot...I had a renewed feeling of needing to really accept him as he is, and expect no change..as suzir said, why then would I not relieve his suffering? MWM moved me a notch back towards remembering his relatively severe limitations. I drift on that scale...sometimes I think he is accountable, sometimes less so.

In the end it is my own sadness and discomfort I was struggling to relieve...too hard to think of myself as an abandoning mother...I didn't even abandon the dang rescue dog we got years ago..the one who was so meek at the shelter and looked like a small deer, but actually waited till people tried to pet her then bit them...we walked her with a muzzle, paid a trainer, went to the university vet school behavioral health clinic (to the tune of 100's of dollars and time off work...) and put her on prozac. They told me she was a special needs dog and needed to be treated as such for the rest of her life. I didn't abandon HER....(well OK I did try to have her put to sleep when she actually succeeded in biting some one and they sued us...) but in the end...we did all we could for her.

Completely cutting ties didn't feel like I was doing all I could.

ON a related note...I had the very , very sobering event, when I went to message him on FB...of reading all the facebook messages between us for the LAST FOUR YEARS. Yup...since 2010. Same same same...more than I realized. My pushing, naggin, aarrangingin, reminding, cajoling, encouraging...and clearly, in the messages, his polite complete lack of interest or engagement. It was so much clearer reading it all in one sitting than it was at the time. I was blind, and relentless. I have no business resenting the time I put into trying to help him...he never asked for it, not one jot.

I also saw that I have cut off ties in anger more often than I realized.

So it was a difficult but good exercise.

And in the end I messaged him.

And in the end, as Suzir suggested, he didn't really want to see me. But I think I made him feel better.

And today, in these dark, cold, underwear-necessary days, as the warmth of Thanksgiving, Christmas, and the winter holidays of light all come into view...I needed to reach out a hand and make some one feel warmer.

Cedar, Lucy, Albie, Guide, Recovering...all your words helped. I needed to be supported as I worked through it, and I particularly valued the advice from several of you to pause, take no action. That was quite valuable too.

Tomorrow is my one year anniversary on the board! Happy anniversary to one and all!

Echo

 

[recoveringenabler]

Happy anniversary my friend. You've come a long long way in this year...............

Your post speaks to so much growth, healing and acceptance. I am happy and relieved that you've landed where you are................the letting go of our insisting they be who they aren't and the judgment and despairing that goes along with that, is a HUGE, HUGE step. I believe then the love comes forth and we can show up for them in a different way, one in which accepts them and is able to really "see" them for who they are, not who we want or need them to be. For myself, I was amazed at the level of love and compassion for my daughter that came barreling out when I stopped "arguing with reality" and just accepted what is.

I am happy for you ECHO. We go through the agonies of the damned to get to acceptance...................celebrate your victory, it is quite the enormous shift................and gift..................

 

[BusynMember]

We're so happy you're here, Echo. You're a champ.

It really is easier when we accept them as they are then when we try to change them. It's easier for us and easier for them.

Hugs and may you continue to share valuable, wise posts for a long, long time.

 

[Albatross]

Echo, I'm so glad you found a solution you can live with.

In the end it is my own sadness and discomfort I was struggling to relieve...too hard to think of myself as an abandoning mother...

I have been thinking a lot along the lines above today. How the things we do in our relationships with our difficult children are ultimately pretty much driven by what we think of OURSELVES at the end of the day.

I guess that's true of our relationship with everything and everybody, but a difficult child really drives that point home because we rarely get much else in return.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us, Echo.

 

[recoveringenabler]

How the things we do in our relationships with our difficult children are ultimately pretty much driven by what we think of OURSELVES at the end of the day.

I agree. That point was made numerous times to me in my therapy group. It's funny, but when it was addressed to another parent, I could TOTALLY see it, and for a long time, when it was addressed to me, I was not able to see it, too busy defending myself in my own head. But, when I did open my eyes to that, it was a lot easier to shift my own responses and let go of judging, nagging, encouraging, etc.........and REALLY see my daughter for who she is.

 

[Echolette]

So I did meet him yestarday, at the Dunkin Donuts across from my office. First time we've talked in 4 months. He was waiting outside (I suspect he tried to wait inside and they made him leave). He was excited and immediately told me he hadn't taken a shower because the place he usually goes was closed, but that he had sprayed himself with febreze so he wouldn't smell bad...then he tried to hug me and I said, sorry no hugging of stinky people. I know that sounds awful, but that had to be a boundary for me...I had decided it a while back, hugging him is just so noxious and I feel like I"m being forced to pretend it is nice. He totally stinks and I feel stinked for hours after...so I decided that I would not subject myself to that anymore...and I didn't.

I bought him coffee and a sandwich and we sat down. I didn't ask stuff other than pretty polite, sort of how are you, where you hanging out, how are things going, are feeling ok. He mentioned having been depressed about still living outside as the winter rolls around, he mentioned the community of homeless and how they are very tight and watch out for each other, he mentioned a friend trying to stay clean, and said that he (difficult child) was going to help that person get disability and foodstamps, now that he had figured out how to do it for himself. He said this month was the best he had done in stretching out his foodstamps to last all month. He said he was using some. He asked if I could tell him where and when to come watch me in a road race I'm running this Sunday. It was about 1/2 hour. It was OK.

I think I am generically blue, so I teetered on the edge of a maw of regret and sadness for the rest of the afternoon, but I worked hard to push it back, and although the work is ongoing, I haven't been swallowed. I probably will message him and give him some ideas about the race, although I find that I get derailed if I am looking for some one at a given location and they aren't there, sooooo I have to figure that out.

But...it was a better, less engaged, less highly invested meeting than I usually have with him. I didn't push for plans or solutions or even for change. He didn't ask for anything. I didn't get the nauseating hug. So overall...OK.

Echo

 

[nlj]

I'm glad you met him.
I'm glad you were less engaged than usual.
I'm glad you dealt with the smell.
I'm glad you have a race to focus on now. It's good to have something else to focus on.
How do you feel about him coming to support you in the race? Sometimes I feel self-conscious that the stinky person is with me and sometimes I don't give a sh*t what anyone else thinks.
Anyway, I'm glad it was "OK", that's a big improvement.

 

[Echolette]

Lucy,

I was a little surprised that I wasn't at all embarrassed at Dunkin Donuts...the people behind the counter were clearly very uncomfortable having him there, and their brains were exploding that the professional looking woman in the suit was calmly chatting with the wild haired dirty smelly guy who reached for his coffee with filthy hands. I actually...just didn't care.

Sometimes I do. Like you.

At the race...I'll buzz by so fast it doesn't really matter. When he was little he used to wait for me at races and give me a little bag of doritos. I'll give him the chance to do that again...and I think I'll be OK if he isn't there.

My sister's son is 7 feet tall, probably about 400 pounds, and severely autisitic...he shuffles, touches things, moans, blurts nonsense quotes from movies, and generally draws a LOT of attention. He is, in the most literal interpretion of the term, monstrous. He also likes to go to Walmart and Barnes and Nobles for entertainment. I do NOT know how she survives the looks and stares she gets from other people. So sometimes I try to channel her when I feel embarassed about difficult child. Sometimes I get mad at him for being as he is and making everyone, including me, uncomfortable. And sometimes...it just doesn't seem like a thing.

Thanks for being out there, Lucy. Its good to have company.

Echo

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

(I suspect he tried to wait inside and they made him leave).

I'm sorry. That is a peculiar kind of pain, isn't it. difficult child daughter had that sort of defenseless hyperawareness ~ that understanding that people would (and had the power to) move her along.

I was very shocked and hurt to see it.

Somehow, none of it was a game, anymore. People could, and did, do that to my daughter.

I never forgot that feeling.

I could cry, thinking about it, now.

but that he had sprayed himself with febreze so he wouldn't smell bad

I love this! I love that he did this. Where did he find the Febreze?

Echo, where did a homeless person find Febreze?

Echo, this is so amazing.

I do believe we come to love and come to think about and to be more intricately involved with our difficult child children than ever a parent of a easy child could be.

I love that he did this for you.

I had decided it a while back, hugging him is just so noxious and I feel like I"m being forced to pretend it is nice.

You chose honesty, Echo. That is always the hardest choice. You respect both yourself and your son enough to choose honest.

This gives your difficult child something to think about, something real.

Who knows where this tiny piece of honest interaction with a mother who loves him enough to tell him true things will take difficult child over the long run?

he (difficult child) was going to help that person get disability and foodstamps, now that he had figured out how to do it for himself.

Totally proud of him.

Generous with his time. Honest, in that he will not steal the foodstamps or whatever.

Those are amazing true things about your boy too, Echo.

I teetered on the edge of a maw of regret and
sadness for the rest of the afternoon

We are in a hard place, Echo.

I am glad you took the hard way, the honest hard way, through it instead of any of the other choices you may have made about how to change your feeling state. It is tragic, what has happened to our children. It took great courage, to see him, to admit it, to let it be.

You love him that much.

I didn't push for plans or solutions or even for
change.

It is very hard, a huge step, to let go of our protections, to admit that maybe this is all real, and that it isn't going to change.

You did well, Echo.

Remember when I was posting about that song, Halleluiah? About love being, not a triumph, but it's a cold, and it's a broken, halleluiah....

Love comes in so many shades and colors and tints. Like a kaliedescope.

Sometimes I feel self-conscious that the stinky person is with me and sometimes I don't give a sh*t what anyone else thinks.

I have felt that shame, and that defiance.

I want to protect my child, but I am ashamed, and I don't know where to stand, inside.

It comes out as defiance.

Only I use the F word, not the S word.

Not out loud, of course.

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

I am angry for you that people judged your son, Echo. I know people do judge and that's why our kids can be so ostracized, but I hate the it happens. And I hate it even more when people don't even try to hide their feelings about it. As for your poor sister's autistic son, that makes me even madder. When Sonic was little he was cute as a button, but he acted very oddly in public, ran in front of me, made weird noises, squaled and even drooled. If anyone stared at him with that "CONTROL THAT CRAZY BLACK KID YOU'RE TAKING CARE OF, WHOEVER HE IS!" I would stare their in the eyeballs and asked sweetly, "Is something wrong?" Nobody every answered.

I would do the same thing if I had a 7 ft. tall, 400 lb. autistic son who is so low functioning that he couldn't help how he behaved. "Can I help you with something? You seem to be interested in us." Calm. Raised eyebrows. No expression. I have sadly gotten so good at dealing with difficult people by staying calm and cool and yet making my point. Years of practice going on here...

I have a personal problem with those who stare at people who are different. It is the height of rudeness. Since a very young age, because I have always felt different (although I looked normal) I went out of my way to be kind and very mindfully normal around anyone who maybe brought questions into my mind. I refused to engage in staring, judging for appearance...that sort of thing. To this day it is a wild pet peeve of mine. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

 

[Albatross]

that had to be a boundary for me...I had decided it a while back

I think this is a very good thing, Echo, both that he was sensitive to it and that you spoke it, rather than suffering in silence.

I worked hard to push it back, and although the work is ongoing, I haven't been swallowed.

I didn't push for plans or solutions or even for change. He didn't ask for anything.

Oh Echo, I know how strange it sounds to say this, but in that case it was a wonderful visit. I am glad you met with him too, that you could be honest and keep a connection and give him a sandwich, and not get swallowed by it all. Those are all GOOD things.

 

[Lil]

He was excited and immediately told me he hadn't taken a shower because the place he usually goes was closed, but that he had sprayed himself with febreze so he wouldn't smell bad.

It is very sweet he went to that effort for you.

...the people behind the counter were clearly very uncomfortable having him there, and their brains were exploding that the professional looking woman in the suit was calmly chatting with the wild haired dirty smelly guy who reached for his coffee with filthy hands.

This upsets me. I have taken to watching a lot of What Would You Do on YouTube and just last week watched one where they had a person bring a "homeless person" (actor) into a restaurant, seat them at the bar and give them money for a meal to see how the customers would react if the servers would refuse to serve them. Pretty much everyone told the bartender they didn't mind if he sat there and ate and some got very irate and even refused to eat there themselves or gave him their food orders when the bartender refused to take an order! Good to see that so many people have a heart. If a person has money, or someone buying for them, they should be allowed the same courtesy of any other customer! Goodness knows I've been out with my son, who in my opinion looks homeless - even when he isn't, enough times!

Good luck on your race! I'm sure he'll be cheering you on, even if he doesn't actually make it.