6 months from now...

[tiredmommy]

(((Momof5)))

Let me tell you a little about a dear friend of mine. Her son was in the same class with Duckie from grades 1 through 3. She and her current husband met on a couples cruise a while back. They were not a couple... my friend was there with her then husband and her present husband was there with a girlfriend. They got drunk and had a torrid affair... resulting in the conception of her 4th child and the end of her marriage.

Fast forward to two years ago last Halloween. She found out that her new husband was having an affair with her best friend. Her boyfriend had a son the same age as R's youngest son (pre-k) and even had R watching the boy while she was with R's husband. R was devastated. I was among the first to know because, frankly, she had just found out and she was beside herself. She didn't know what to do and had four kids that would be impacted by her decision.

She wanted advice so I told her this: she had to decide if she could live with the knowledge that he was capable of risking two of her marriages for sex. And that it was her decision alone, not anyone else's and no one else's opinion really matters. She had to figure out if there was enough left to salvage and, if not, she should put herself in the best financial place she could for the sake of the kids. And she didn't have to decide right away.

They are still married and appear to be happy (I really hope so). I probably would have kicked my husband out.

(((Hugs))) Take your time and decide what's best for you and the kids. Only you can figure that out.

 

[Steely]

Know I am sending you a billion hugs.....sleep well.....and think objectively.

 

[Lothlorien]

Have you tried counseling? It sounds like you both need to air things out with someone who can moderate and show you and him both sides of the stories and make you both understand each other's feelings.

Sending big hugs.

 

[Mamaof5]

I need to address a few points made by some:

1. I've tried 4 counselling sessions - did sweet nothing for me except make me feel worse.
2. Because of the environment of the relationship - other non-family females on his friends lists (where he met his affair partner - on FB) are a boundary I've said is a deal breaker if stepped over. I set my personal boundaries (this being one of them) because I had to. That is a deal breaker for me (never was until he screwed up). It means if he can't respect my boundaries as his wife and a person then I can't stay. I will not be stepped on.
In that respect - I have a few deal breaker boundaries that cannot be crossed which are:

No inappropriate opposite sex friendship (obviously I have to set this boundary because he can't set his own self-boundary for it - he over stepped it by what he did).
Ever does it again - I'm out, no second chances
Complete open, transparent honesty - brutal honesty in fact.
If I have to ask the same questions about the affair, no matter how many times I've asked (and I don't often, once in awhile) then he should be willing to do so.
No trickle truthing - give it to me straight - how much more can one do to hurt someone than they already have in this case right.
Tell me where you are going, how long you're going to be and check in once in a while (especially if going to be late)
Should be willing to give all passwords to all online accounts for my use at my discretion - he no longer has any privacy - he gave that up when he did what he did - in return he has all of mine too.
We have to relationship talk at least once a week and check into the relationship every day.
If I have trigger and I get peeved (by the way my PTSD is because of the affair) about it or upset and cry then he needs to be understanding about that. I can't help having triggers (Adele's Someone like you makes me go ape poo poo - I hate...no DESPISE that song - it's the biggest trigger I have)

There is so much more than the above. For the most part he has put in the work for the above. It's just a few things that happen to be major things that he hasn't lifted a sock about. My needs I spelled out very carefully and very precisely. I want date night once a month, I want more affection, more intimacy, more emotional conversations. 4 things he drags his feet on. As for his stupidity the other day, men say really dumb **** sometimes. After that night when I spelled it out with an ultimatum (6 months to meet me full tilt or I say see ya) I think he's finally getting it - not fully yet but starting to.

He surprised me with a few comments and showed me in words that he was starting to understand (freaking slow bum but better slow than never). I'm still cautious and still sticking to my ultimatum. If I don't need money for the first and last then we've saved up for something else like a rainy day savings account. This is his very last chance to pull up his socks, dig in to the elbows and pull his weight as a husband and man.

He's always - ALWAYS been a fantastic father. Oh and I'm the one who earns the majority of the income in our household (he's about 600 a month I earn about 4200 so going it on my own is no issue).

 

[tiredmommy]

I'm glad you're clear on what you need, that makes it easier for you to be objective and set clear cut goals. I hope he comes full circle and realizes just what he did and what he stands to lose: a phenomenal wife and life partner.

 

[DDD]

You sound comfortable in your decision and, lol, it is your decision and your life. I'm glad that income is not a major issue. Sorry your counseling didn't help. Was it couple's counseling or single counseling? Do you believe that the person you saw was the "right" person?

Truthfully your post was so full of anger and pain (justifiable, of course) that my female gut, my previously divorced single woman gut and my experienced Mother to adults gut all screamed to me to reach out. I have never dealt with infidelity but close friends did with varying degrees of success. The ones who moved on (some with and some with-o their spouses) in a healthy way did unburden themselves via therapy and counseling. Whether as a family unit or as separate biological parents you and your husband will share parenting. It's alot easier when you can focus on the strength you each bring to the children.

I'm rooting for you and promise not to go on and on and on and on. Actually I'm pretty good at listening with-o too much comment. Hugs DDD

 

[Mamaof5]

I have my outlets (TAM forum). I read something today on there that really hit it on the head hard...

---

I know this post is not going to sit well with most WS here but in my opinion there seems to be a lot of difficulty understanding the pain the BS goes through after an affair is discovered. I know the WS is dealing with a lot of intense emotions such as guilt, shame, remorse, regret. But there seems to be a definite disconnect that I thought I'd address. While I am not the most intelligent or articulate person here on TAM I thought I'd try to describe the way my wife and I have come to understand the difference and how we related it to each other.

A person who has an affair does indeed have to deal with a lot of pain in the aftermath. They have to reevaluate their own identity and who they really are and their willingness to cause so much suffering to their loved ones. The statements 'it's just not in me to cheat' and 'I could never do that' are in direct conflict with their actions. They have to come to the painful conclusion that they indeed are not the absolute good person they thought they were. They have to realize that there was something in them that allowed them to be selfish and cruel to the person or people they most cherished. And the scariest part is that they have to realize that since they've done it once they can do it again. Those self examinations are extremely difficult but necessary if the WS wants to become the person they always thought they already were and hope to actually become.

Here is where it gets hard for as much difficulty the WS has to go through they truly cannot comprehend the pain and anguish the BS has to endure. I want you to understand and remember two words. These are two very important words and it will help you to understand what your spouse is probably feeling even if they can't express it. When they discovered your affair…YOU DIED! Let me say it again…YOU DIED! The person that your husband/wife married is gone forever. Think about a time when you lost someone really close to you. A father, mother, sister, brother, son, daughter, or spouse. Think of the grief that you had to deal with. That is the same grief that your spouse has to deal with each and every day. Every day that they wake up after D-Day you die again and they feel it again and it's just as intense. The feelings of loneliness, hopelessness, yes…anger (why did you leave me?) Can you even imagine the pain that he/she is going through? Probably not. Because you are the one that had died and they are the one that is left to pick up the pieces of a shattered life that was taken from. They are the ones that are left to deal with the loss of a loved one.

But here is the sick part. You are still here; but you aren't! You are a doppelganger, a clone, an evil twin. You are the one that killed your spouse's cherished love. You took the love of his/her life away forever violently and without mercy. You stabbed them, mutilated them, burned them and ultimately buried them. You are the monster that has torn up a family. You are the monster that has committed such a senseless heinous act. You are a murderer! And here's the part that most WS miss. You were aware of your actions. You stalked your husband/wife's spouse. You planned how to do it. You conspired with another murdered and you finally struck without warning and without honor. The BS was left in shock and dismay watching their cherished lover, friend, partner, confidant bleed to death in the street. They felt hopeless and helpless as the person they loved most in the world was taken from them. Their world...you...died that day.

And you want the grieving person to forgive you. Love you. Stay with you. Think about that for a minute. You, the pod person, the evil clone, the look alike murderer that destroyed the one person in life that your spouse cherished beyond all time and space want the sorrow filled, grief stricken, angry and injured beyond belief person to LOVE YOU? They had this involuntarily inflicted upon them. They had no choice. Only pain. And now you want them to choose to love you. Can you imagine going up to the person that murdered your loved one and choosing to love them?

Now you have a little glimpse into the psyche of your betrayed spouse. You also know why I always tell people that the old marriage is dead and the couple must learn to love each other as new…if they can. It is also why I recommend the betrayed spouse read 'Just Let Them Go' even if they want to reconcile. Because you truly have to let the cheating spouse go in order to learn to hopefully love the new version of your husband/wife. It's hard and it's painful and it can only be done if the WS does everything to make the BS fall in love with them again.

That's how I feel, exactly how it is. It's like the murder\death of your spouse when that spouse cheats. It's the stages of grief. I'm partially stuck on the angry stage (aka rage stage) especially when he has a durr moment.

Really, honestly at this point it's about fixing the problems that were already there because the infidelity is a background problem that we are working out. It's the marital problems that lead to a disconnect and his need to feed his insecurities and ego (through the infidelity). The cheating was NEVER about me, what I am or who I am. It was his problem, his personal demons, his insecurities. I know that, whether he does or not is the issue (and I'm leaning toward not quite there yet in realizing that his own inner insecurities were what helped make his choice, and oh yes it's a choice, to cheat).

It's funny - we have to help each other with this and yet it's like a tug of war some days. Me - why the heck should I help you mr. stab me in the back and him with the "I don't know how to help". I try not to do that spiteful koi (as some of you say) because it doesn't help the situation any more than his durr moments do. It was IC by the way and no I don't think she was a great fit but she is the only female in town (small town) who deals with this particular subject and family counselling. The other one, from my understanding, deal with addictions as a specialty ...erm I'm not an addict so I'm not within her criteria and to hockey sticks I'm going to trust a male counselor with my most inner thoughts and feelings...uhm not happening.

I do have a doctor, he's just away on conferences until May (grumbles).

 

[tiredmommy]

That, I believe, is the most eloquent explanation of the pain and impact of infidelity I have ever read. The author is extremely insightful and it brought tears to my eyes. Thank you... I know it must not be easy to allow us this glimpse into what you have endured.

 

[Mamaof5]

tiredmommy: No, not by a long shot is it easy at all but I trust you all here. I trust you all enough to share and maybe...just maybe someone out there now or in the future may stumble across these humble posts of mine and say "yes, that is it, that is how I feel. I'm understood, someone knows and I'm not alone after all".

If just one person is helped by this, just one than the suffrage and pain that I have endured and most likely am still to endure a while longer will have been worth every effort, every painful moment, every strained breath, every agonizing thought - all of it.

 

[susiestar]

(((((hugs)))))

 

[Star*]

Well with that said MO5

It seems apparent to me that there were things that he did to hurt your relationship. Instead of flipping him to the curb at THAT time - You DID give him another chance. You laid out the "Here is what must be done to stay with me ULTIMATUMS." NOT "Here is what you could do if you think you want to be with me - suggestions." I think you were REMARKABLY clear and in my mind after your explaination? If he truly wanted to make a go of it? He would be doing his best to stay away from the things that he did to hurt you and cause problems in the first place. When you make mistakes and say I am sorry, I won't do it again - you don't skirt the issues. You avoid the issues, and work at repairing yourself, and the things you did wrong to make the situation BETTER. Not go back to old habits and hope someone doesn't notice.

My issues with your situation and any relationship are the fact that you have to be married to a man you have to POLICE. You have full access to all his passwords? That shouldn't be necessary. This is a huge red flag that there is NO trust. WIthout trust? You have nothing. My thought would be - you have said "You can look at ANY of my accounts, in my purse, on my phone- in my car - ANYTIME, but you've had to make ultimatums to do the same for him,and he's agreed possibly to keep a roof, the peace thinking as time goes on - he'll just slip back into old habits, you will too and no one would be the wiser. Again, my thought is if you have NO trust? You have NO relationship. You can have the same thing with a complete stranger. Think about it.....

Everyone including me has suggested counseling to get the three sides of the story. I don't think I need any more of it. It doesn't boil down to money, it doesn't boil down to anger, it doesn't boil down to loath - it boils down to trust - and you don't have it with him. It doesn't sound like he cares to work on it, and if he does he has an odd way of showing it - You would know him better than any of us, and shooting you straight as a girlfriend, not an impartial person of do what you want but as someone who has been there done that with a man who cheated repeatedly - and I gave him every opportunity, had several counseling sessions - and tried MY hardest to keep married? Save yourself the hassle. FWIW? I don't think either of your hearts have been in this for a while. No shame in admitting that. I know once I looked back on my marriage of 13 years? I realized I hadn't been in love for a long, long time - I was just trying to stay married to be married. I wasted a lot of my time. Hope this doesn't anger you - just wanted to be blunt and honest.

My heart goes out to you - I've always found you to say what you think and for that I'm thankful. I think everyone here just wanted you to take a moment and try to salvage anything if it was there. We all always mean the best for each other. Truly.

Hugs & Love
Star

 

[klmno]

It sounds to me that there are stages one must have to go thru to ever get past this, whether the marriage survives or not. It sounds like you are still in the anger stage, not saying this is wrong but just a phase similar to ones after a loved one dies. I don't think you've moved past wanting to punish him to forgiving him, then deciding you can trust him again. I have no idea how long each phase "should" last, but I am not so sure either of you can be happy together unless and until you get to the forgiveness part and trust him again. OK, in all honesty, I got part of that from a previous Dr. P show on infidelity.

 

[jal]

I have hesitated and hesitated to respond to this thread. If my memory is correct, your husband did not cheat in the physical sense, but the emotional sense. NOT THAT THAT MAKES IT ANY DIFFERENCE, BOTH DEVISTATE. Two years ago I went through this, but in the physical sense, short lived, more communication than together, but still. I have only told 2 people in my life, so putting it out here is a real stretch for me. I do not post a lot, and I do not post personal, but this struck a chord. Only here and there when I feel I have something to contribute and about this I will not go into detail. My world imploded when I discovered what happened. We have 1 difficult child child. We have been together since we were 18, we are now almost 40, difficult child is 9. It has always been us. Supportive family on both sides, no other outside/other people issues. husband was unemployed for a long time due to his career and economy. husband was depressed. I did not see the depression as I have never had to deal with-anything like that in my life to be able to pinpoint it. His unemployment largely contributed to the depression of being home day in and day out and extra time on his hands, although he strived to keep busy and productive. The internet made things too easy. He asked me to help him get on a popular site, figuring something to do, but he's not computer savy and didn't know what could happen. Someone from the past happened (we r talking when he was 15). I knew immediately her intentions were not good. husband is naive and big hearted so he didn't see it. Together we wrote a letter to kabosh the whole thing. Later he felt guilty and reached out to apologize. As he pulled away from me I reacted not knowing what or why he was pulling away. I began to become a problem in our relationship because I didn't know what he was going through and I pushed way too much, became angry and resentful that he wasn't working and there were things that I did that pushed him away and so eventually something happened. I am NOT IN ANY WAY placing the blame on me, but I own A piece of it.

I found out. No, he didn't tell, but when I confronted he spilled. Again, no detail here. He said he'd go to therapy (voluntarily, I didn't ask), I shut down, but also had to look at myself. (NOT SAYING THIS IS UR SITUATION) just I looked at my actions and I could see a few things that I really did wrong during this trying time and why he did what he did. I don't own it, it was a choice he made, but I had to own responsibility in my relationship and responsibility for what I did wrong (AGAIN ALL ME - NOT UR SITUATION). Infidelity in a marriage was always a deal breaker for me in my ideal mind. I had to take a HUGE step back and look at myself to see if I in any way contributed to it, and in my case, yes, small ways I had. All ways - NO WAY. We are about 2 years past this. We made changes in our lives. More time together (as difficult child had been our whole focus forever and consumed so much of us). Time to talk, time to be. The anger is a lot less now, but I still have bad days as to what happened. I am still hurt and it makes me sick to think about it. There is so much more to this story that I can't put out there (just for privacy reasons) but both parties have to be willing to work at it. It really is a give and take. We were always strong, but we are even more stronger now. I still love him and he has proved to me that again I can trust him. I have his passwords, I didn't demand, I found...but I've checked. A lot in the beginning, who wouldn't after being betrayed? Once maybe every 3 - 4 months now, if really at all, he no longer goes on the computer (ever since, by his choice) even though its available. He's more than proved he's sorry, he's more than proved I can trust him again, but G_D knows if there is an ever again, he will be gone in a heartbeat. We grew up together, we do love each other and without each other we'd be lost and so would our child, so in that I am lucky that we both want to work at it, but work it does take.