A Delight in Cruelty

[klmno]

Hi, Daisy! I apologize for the way my post came across last night. I should probably have elaborated a little more. There is no easy answer to this and you are completely justified in feeling frustrated. We all have times where we blame ourselves and have less than warm & fuzzy feelings for our kids. There are times that I really resent the fact that my son's decisions have created such a nightmare situation for us both.

I also understand about the psychiatric hospital not doing enough and then just discharging the kid. It has happened with mine, too. Of course, a few days in the psychiatric hospital is sometimes better than nothing- it just isn't the "big" answer.

Still, I hope you can find a way to keep pushing for more help and keep some part of you understanding that she is a kid that desparately needs some help. You apparently already realize that.

 

[DaisyFace]

Hi, Daisy! I apologize for the way my post came across last night.

No need to apologize....

I just recognize in your words all of the scary things that I don't like to admit to myself. I did almost delete half my response--feeling like "What kind of monster am I to write that I sometimes resent my child?"

And you are right about the psychiatric hospital, also. I was kind of hoping that it was going to be the "big" answer. But instead--I am left feeling very frustrated.

Thanks for being there!

 

[DaisyFace]

Daisyface,

As the battle-weary mom of two difficult child's with nine in-patient hospitalizations between them, I feel like I may have some observations to share with you:

My ex and I have learned the hard way that not all therapists and psychiatrists know what they are doing. We have had our share of jaw-droppingly stupid advice from professionals who told us that their way was the only way. Over time you look back and see where you made mistakes.

I think your daughter is being grossly underserved right now. I don't know anything about neuropsychiatry, but I think it's a very wise thing to have a neurologist run some basic tests on her to see if anything shows up. It may not show anything abnormal, but you'll at least rule certain things out.

The cruelty to animals really worries me, especially at her age. I would not accept the blanket description that most teen girls are depressed and that if only their parents would treat them better they would be fine. B.S. My teens are in trouble now with the law because we gave them too much slack due to their emotional disorders.

Past hospitalizations did little to help my kids because they are of such short duration, a week or maybe two at the most, that the professionals don't get a chance to really get to know how the kid is off their medications. All the hospitals did was pile on more cocktails of medications that didn't help. In the olden days, a psychiatric patient got to stay long enough to make real progress, but now, as you're finding out, you are expected to take her home and find follow up care that will help. The lack of consistent mental health care just prolongs our children's difficulties and makes for very frustrated parents.

Forget that Doctor W. You need to rule out neurological issues and pinpoint what is bothering her. Is she willing to talk to a therapist or does she balk at going?

Thanks for sharing your experience!

It is definitely helpful to hear from someone who has been there. I am still very much a "newbie" at navigating all these professional services and apparantly, also very naive...believing that an "expert" would have all the answers.

I have long suspected that the cruelty issues were indicative of something far more serious than ADD....

As far as therapy goes--the upshot of being termed a "bad, unfeeling mother" is that Dr J______ proscribed joint therapy for difficult child and me (so that I can learn how to share my emotions and be a more nurturing mother....). So now I have a front-row seat for some of the things the therapist has been (or not been) working on...and I quickly discovered that difficult child has not shared any of her major issues with the therapist. (But she has certainly been telling tales of all the terrible things that everyone else does) I finally had a chance to bring up the physical abuse of her brother, her constant disrespect of members of the family, the anger, the outbursts, etc etc.

In the last few therapy sessions, however, difficult child's answers to questions have been getting shorter and shorter. As in "I don't know...", "I don't remember...." or "I guess..."

And it feels like we are quickly heading toward a dead end...(although the therapist is beginning to agree that Dr W_____ is wrong about the Depression diagnosis, and that any problems in the mother/daughter relationship are NOT the results of my callousness or neglect.).

 

[DaisyFace]

Thanks, JJJ--

That is a good suggestion! I think you are absolutely right aout getting a psychiatrist to approach her with the correct mindset.

 

[klmno]

You might have tried this already, but after calling around like JJJ sugests, I'd recommend going to the therapist by yourself first and telling them all these things. That way, it won't fuel more in your daughter to sit there and hear you say these things, but you'll be sure that therapist knows them. And, it appears that she needs an individual therapist more than traditional family therapy to me.

 

[Nancy423]

Out of the dozen or so therapist and psychiatrist's we've been to over the last 10 yrs or so have ALWAYS had me sit in first, before difficult child. The psychiatrists reserved first 5-10 min for my update and the tdocs all worked with- me. Then again, it's not like difficult child would give them anything. I'd be lucky that she acknowledged the doctor!
Anyway, ask the psychiatrist for a few minutes before sessions or have a report ready that updates the last week's happenings (or how ever long it's been since last session)

and please, PLEASE don't EVER feel guilty about the feelings you have. Each and every one of us is human and if we don't get those feelings out it would do more harm than good. while a good chunk of our day is trying to deal with a difficult child, there are times we just feel too tired to deal ya know?

 

[Steely]

I am slightly confused about all of the details (sorry, I am not so great lately with information flow)
However - I wanted to offer a couple of things.

A) If your difficult child has any type of mood disorder the Celexa could be making it worse. Has she been more agitated or aggressive since starting it?

B) I agree with the others that she needs a thorough neuropsychologist exam, and that there is possibly more going on with the chemicals in her brain than just depression or ADD.

C) There is a huge difference between the type of child Bran posted about who physically injures animals and people for the thrill -
VS kids who get a thrill or rise out of people's responses to their aberrant actions.
My difficult child was one of those who literally enjoyed to see my dismay or anger when he did or said something outrageous to me - mostly abusive stuff. I could see him grinning when I got so upset I could barely speak. However, he did not seek pleasure from the pain it caused, but rather my reaction. For years I worried it was the other way around, but it was all attention driven.
You will have to analyze and differentiate this for yourself with your difficult child - but to me the example of the horses was perfect. She did not literally want to see them be harmed - but she wanted the power she gained from making them run.

The Explosive Child is a good starting point, as well as a through exam so she could possibly be on the correct medications - and in therapy.
Hugs, you are not alone.

 

[bran155]

Steely, you are so right. The little boy I was talking about actually gets the thrill from the pain he is causing. My daughter on the other hand gets a thrill from our reactions. It's as though he thoroughly enjoys hurting others. He does it in such a calculating way. Where my daughter just likes the rise she gets out of me. If you watch this little boy you can actually see the wheels in motion, he sits and plots out things to do - very deliberate. Very sad as well. His mother and grandmother joke that he is a serial killer in the making. I personally don't see any humor in that but these people aren't wrapped too tight. It's a shame because I really do believe they are making this kid so much worse than he has to be.

 

[DaisyFace]

Hmmm---

My current interpretation is that she enjoys the thrill of it--because she is very secretive about it and tries to keep it from my attention.

The horse incident was well out of my visual range and earshot--it was only when I noticed that she had gone off somewhere and went searching for her that I became aware that something was agitating the horses down the hill...

 

[recovering doormat]

and I quickly discovered that difficult child has not shared any of her major issues with the therapist. (But she has certainly been telling tales of all the terrible things that everyone else does) I finally had a chance to bring up the physical abuse of her brother, her constant disrespect of members of the family, the anger, the outbursts, etc etc.


Yup, that's my kid too. She would never talk about the substantive issues, only the superficial tidbits. She's been in therapy five years now, and her current therapist is the first one that she has actually been willing to work with. I coulda had a new living and dining room set for what I've spent on talk therapy that didn't help.

It all comes down to age and maturity of the child, and frankly, most 13 to 16 yr olds really don't want to spill their guts to adults.

If it's any consolation, my daughter has begun to mature and take responsbility for herself after she hit bottom. But she had to recognize it in herself, and now she's making good progress.

There is hope. Don't despair, she's young and you've still got a lot of influence over her, despite what you may fear.

 

[compassion]

Thanks Recovering Doormat, I get frustrated with difficult child daugther and therapy which she has been doing since late July. I want the deeper stuff addressed: the anger, the low self esteem, the emotional blackmail . Today at the appointment I will ask her to address that with both of us. She is addressing social skills which is somewhat of an issue but the addiction stuff and the blaming, manipulation and general instability I feel is most pressing. It is a tricky balance as therapist wants difficult child to keep coming but I do feel frustrated and like therapist is enabling /ignoring behaviors.
Weekly, I write a behavoir contact and include positives as well as dangerous behaviors. For example, she has been stealing. If I do not insist the outrageous behaviors are addressed, the focus either gets put on me or superficial stuff.Like last week, therapist goes she is doing great at social skills and she had just stolen 2 credit cards and my cellphone. I did not bring that up as was not sure.
I am sticking with one incident: the 3 and a half hour fit she threw yesterday when I said she could not spend the night at E's. I refuse to take it on, will put focus on her.
Compassion

 

[DaisyFace]

I want the deeper stuff addressed: the anger, the low self esteem, the emotional blackmail . [The therapist] is addressing social skills which is somewhat of an issue but the addiction stuff and the blaming, manipulation and general instability I feel is most pressing. It is a tricky balance as therapist wants difficult child to keep coming but I do feel frustrated and like therapist is enabling /ignoring behaviors.

If I do not insist the outrageous behaviors are addressed, the focus either gets put on me or superficial stuff. Compassion

That is exactly my experience as well....

What is the phrase...?: When the whole house is on fire you don't worry about sparks from the fireplace landing on the carpet.

I feel like therapy is focusing on all the little "sparks"...and not on the fire.

 

[compassion]

Today I did bring up the 3.5 hour emtional blackmail fit yesterday and the unsafe people she has in her cellphone. The stealing and the overspeding, did not focus on as much but do bring it up.
It is releif fr me to have her , difficult child own and attempt to deal with stuff. The suppossed trigger was that I said she could spend the night Thursday, not last nihjt.
therapist said she will keep dealing with getting her to face her own feelings and needs. She was overwhelmed and overstimulated and refused my support to deal and calm down., The goal/hope is that she can catch herself and calm herself. She has made a lot of progress. The meltdowns are exhausting but actally can be breakthroughs. She actally made new freiends and put herselg in new social situation. Transitions are very difficult for her. The strucure of academics, volleyball, reglar meetings, and therapy is very important for her. I am the one that creates a lot of the strucure. Compassion

 

[Star*]

DF,

Hi and welcome to the community. Your post found me thinking back to a lot of very bizzare and frightening behaviors in my son. My son is now 18, but his first hospitalization was at age 6 for chasing the neighbor boy down the street with a short handle grain scythe screaming "I'll f'ing kill you." to another 7 year old child who had just wanted to play with difficult child and his friend. When we got him to the ER - he was just as calm as punch. I checked in, told the nurses that he had "flipped out" and excatly what behaviors we witnessed.

I was treated very badly that day by several nurses who looked, whispered, motioned with head gestures and nods. There I sat for over 3 hours with the most angelic, "mommy look" type child ever born. Four hours into the "wait" and with no money for snacks he flipped out again. This time he demolished the childrens waiting area in the ER room and had to be taken to a private room and handcuffed to the bed, where 2 armed police told him if he didn't stop kicking and trashing the ER room and bed they would take him to jail. At that point all the "I'll kill you you #(#)*()ers' began. Nine hours later they transported him to the state psychiatric hospital in a van meant for police K-9s. I cried as they handcuffed him in the van and follwed them sobbing.

The behaviors I had witnessed before that were: Hitting, pushing, shoving, biting, name calling, bullying, lying, taking possessions, hiding, pooping pants, sleeping in his closet, sleeping under the mattress, sleeping between the bed and wall, sleeping with a butcher knife, having horrible nightmares, using any surface for frustrations, beating things with a ballbat, hitting the dog, pinching the dog, pushing the dog, teasing the dog endlessly (we have pit bulls and he had to get bit in the face twice and have his nose broken for it to stop) our psychiatrist said Yup....hours long rages, yelling, screaming, curising to the point I thought he had Tourettes, breaking stuff, not listening, AT ALL....horrible behavior in school, horrible behavior to me - broke my nose ina basket hold too. Blacked my eyes in a basket therapeutic hold. Killed a mouse, killed his hamster and then SWORE TO GOODNESS he had NO idea how she died...and my list goes on and on and on.

My son? I think it's nothing short of a miracle he's still alive. We were diagnosis and over diagnosis and underdx and I have quite a reading on many types of psychotic disorders...and still we have no real answers as to what's wrong with him. He's ADHD, SEVERE PTSD and ODD.....he's not cruel to animals anymore. He's stopped hitting people becuase as you get older - you hit, you get punched back - he had his jaw fractured and wired shut. Or you go to jail.

Some things they do get "tough love" via the world over - but I drew the line at the animals. We kept him away from small children which today is amazing because he lives at a foster home that has 34 kids in daycare. He's great with them now. And good with animals.

I held back EVERYONE in the world from giving him what "they felt" he deserved for being mean. I wouldn't allow them to "give it back" to him. There were days when I wanted to just go ape on him and say "SEE HOW THIS FEELS?" but never did. I dont' know if a diagnosis will help you - but I CAN tell you that Ritalin and the other medication you mentioned (stims) made him SO mean NO ONE could handle him and he would be threatened to be kicked out of Residential Treatment Center (RTC) several times until they took him off stims. They did NOT help.

In your daughter's case you have to consider also HORMONES - and PMS...and possibly PMDD. Read up on PMDD also. Talk to her obgyn and find out if there is a better mood stablizer to help her THAT could be alot of her problems. Also if she's had a traumatic event in her life - she could be suffering from PTSD. That itself can manifest into quite a beast.

Does she have any UGH outlets - anything to hit or punch or take out her aggression on? Does she have a place to just SCREAM or get it out of her system as a learned alternative to her striking people and animals.
We had to consider giving our furry children up because of Dude and chose to keep eyes on them instead 24/7. The day Dude left for good - it took 6 months for the pitbull to stop walking around with his tail tucked. Now they love when the big brother "visits" but we still watch them closely. My other dog weighs 140 lbs and well he stopped taking Dudes crud a long time ago - so there were little pinches and slaps and tugs...to the point that I finally told the big dog YOU HAVE MY PERMISSION to defend yourself. When Dude asked what that meant? i said
Well - the pit at 70 lbs - nearly tore your nose off and this dog is twice his weight - so I imagine if you slap or pinch him again - you're going to loose a face or a hand. MIRACLES happen and finally the big dog was left alone.

I think she needs an OBGYN appointment.
I think she needs an outlet for her anger
I think she needs therapy to learn that it's OKAY to be angry but here are ways to COPE that are better than being a JERK....
I think she needs people to stop concentrating on the WHAT is wrong or what makes her tick. Dude is 18 and I still have NO idea why he's so angry. I may never know. But start working more on the HERE are solutions to generalized anger - I wish I had done that sooner with Dude.

Hugs
Star

 

[Steely]

Star-I love when you post. It makes me feel so much less alone. The things you have the courage to talk about regarding dude, I am in awe of. There are still things my difficult child has done, that I still cannot write about, let alone think about. They still scare me that much. Thank you for being so honest, and such an inspiration for me to be the same. And thank you for always sharing your story, so we all feel less alone when our children are doing these aberrant things that most doctors have huge scary labels for. I never believed the ones they tried to plaster on Matt's forehead, and I am truly thankful for that now - he has not and will not live up to any label.

 

[DaisyFace]

In your daughter's case you have to consider also HORMONES - and PMS...and possibly PMDD. Read up on PMDD also. Talk to her obgyn and find out if there is a better mood stablizer to help her THAT could be alot of her problems. Also if she's had a traumatic event in her life - she could be suffering from PTSD. That itself can manifest into quite a beast.

Does she have any UGH outlets - anything to hit or punch or take out her aggression on? Does she have a place to just SCREAM or get it out of her system as a learned alternative to her striking people and animals.

I think she needs an OBGYN appointment.

I think she needs an outlet for her anger

I think she needs therapy to learn that it's OKAY to be angry but here are ways to COPE that are better than being a JERK....

I think she needs people to stop concentrating on the WHAT is wrong or what makes her tick. Dude is 18 and I still have NO idea why he's so angry. I may never know. But start working more on the HERE are solutions to generalized anger - I wish I had done that sooner with Dude.

Hugs
Star

Hi Star--

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences! Reading about the terrible tiems you went through...and to hear that now he is so much better with kids and animals gives me hope!

As to your questions...the anger/aggression issues have been going on since difficult child was born. She always preferred smashing her toys to playing with them. Hormones are probably contributing at this point--but would not seem to be the primary problem.

As to traumatic events...she comes from what is practically a "Norman Rockwell Home". Our natural child, parents together living at home, no drugs/alcohol, plenty of playmates, plenty of doting grandparents/aunts/uncles etc., no accidents, no trauma, no abuse, no loss of anyone close (not even a goldfish!), no separations or divorce.

We have been working on providing positive outlets for her anger...over the years we have tried sports, punching bags, martial arts...as well as coaxing her to just 'punch a pillow' or 'yell at the woods'... None of these have worked--and a few have backfired. (The martial arts techniques she was learning began to be employed on other kids!)

Her anger is so constant...it is as though she feels that the entire world is out to get her and she must always be on "offense" so she can get them before they get her. She is very paranoid and often perceives that the people around her are being malicious or have some dark ulterior motive against her. She has felt this way most especially about me...

The first effect I noticed of the Celexa was a shift in difficult child's perception of reality. She began asking questions about things as though she'd been asleep this whole time. She had a few "light bulb" moments in therapy (such as the suggestion to stop calling her Mom a b****). And she has not had any major melt-downs since staring the drug. This seems good.

However, it has been a few weeks now, and as she is adjusting to the Celexa...the anger is beginning to resurface again.

I think that you are right about finding solutions in the HERE and NOW and worrying about the reasons afterward. I hope that I can find someone who will help me do that.

 

[Shelia]

Hi everybody....I'm also new here...my first post as a matter of fact. I have a 5 yr old son named Jacen. He has not been diagnosed with anything as of yet....but I suspect he may have auditory processing/ADHD/ODD. He can be a very sweet little boy but he has exhibited cruel moments that have worried me also. He has always wanted a puppy and our neighbors gave him one. It wasn't the time I would have chosen....but Jacen was thrilled and it was a cute little dog. The puppy was sweet and he took a liking to me right away. He loved to cuddle....but it was obvious to me that he tried his best to avoid Jacen.
On one occasion I caught Jacen about to THROW this little baby dog and he was laughing. I grabbed the puppy out of his arms and had to really bite my tongue to keep from screaming at him "WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH YOU!!!" My voice was shaking but I told him....this dog is just a baby....and it's our job to take care of him...to love him...not hurt him. I made him go with me the next day and take the dog back...."because it deserved to live with a little boy that would take care of him....not hurt him". I hope that might have sunk into his little brain that there are consequences to hurting other people or animals.

The little girl next door knocks the fire out of him and he doesn't hit back.....but he does hit me or my husband sometimes when he is angry.

I have seen other kids that seem to get some sort of "kick" out of being intentionally mean.....almost like a high. Maybe it makes them feel powerful...for a moment.

I just know it is very troubling.....Good Luck, Shelia

 

[DaisyFace]

Well...wish me luck everyone--

We have an appointment this afternoon with the therapist. I am going to see if we can arrange another evaluation. before the therapist decides that my difficult child is no longer "Depressed" and can be discharged from therapy services...

Cross your fingers!

 

[DaisyFace]

OK--

Another update:

At the therapy appointment today...I asked what kind of testing/evaluations had been done for difficult child at the psychiatric hospital. Turns out that the psychiatrist (Dr. J____), had based his diagnosis of Depression almost entirely on patient interviews in which difficult child had talked about having a bad day at school.

During today's session, therapist tried to address some of the violence and aggressive behaviors that I've been worrying about...and finally difficult child admitted to homicidal/suicidal thoughts on a very regular basis, but genuinely seemed to feel that such violent thoughts were, in her words, "no big deal".

And when therapist asked about the incident in which difficult child was spooking the horses (which happened since last session), difficult child said that the horses were having fun. She truly seems to lack any sort of empathy and seems very confused as to why everyone has been making such a fuss over these sorts of incidents.

In light of today's session...therapist agrees that further testing is required. She said she would make a few calls and see if she could come up with a recommendation for us.

therapist also mentioned looking into some kind of "aversion therapy" technique that would help difficult child learn and remember to keep her hands off of other people. {Not sure how that would work...}

So I guess I am waiting to hear back for therapist's recommendation....