Marguerite
Active Member
Liahona, I'm sorry you have experienced this. Sadly, it is far more common than it should be. It does sound to me like you know where this has come from (the preacher) and you don't expect much joy there.
It is sad, but this happens in churches. I won't single out churches, but they are places where we expect compassion, from policy/teachings/whatever. This happens in other social groups too.
We experienced this too. I remember when I was a child (I grew up in the church, very much) and I tried to do what we were taught to do and help the less fortunate. There was a family whose father used to drink and gamble every night, he left his two girls in his truck until late at night, parked in the street outside the club. At first the older girl used to bully me but I made friends with her and invited both girls to our church choir. Only the older girl came and it was difficult for her, I now realise, with undoubtedly objections from her parents (the club in those days was closed on Sundays). In choir we wore robes (quick throw-over things) which hid her lack of decent dress. She was one of us, or at least looked the part. And she loved to sing. But older members of the congregation came and spoke to me, told me I was walking into moral danger if I associated with this girl. After only two weeks, the girl told me she would not be back because she did not feel welcome. I know the choir mistress was not the problem, I was there and could witness everything said and done. I suspect now that someone went up to my friend (probably in the street) and told her to stay away from me. And from church.
Sadly, people at church, despite what church is supposed to be about, are just the same as people not at church. In other words people everywhere will be self-serving, lack compassion, are untrained and lacking any understanding in the health professions especially mental health. Some churches (our current one included) do not have a trained pastor but are instead run by a collective. An untrained pastor can make devastating mistakes.
At our church yesterday a visiting preacher (I would like to know more about him; very charismatic, but I got an uncomfortable 'vibe') spoke (somewhat randomly) and mentioned in passing, Matthew Ch 18 vs 15. "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over." The preacher commented that because our church has been going for nearly 50 years now, we're obviously really good with this one. I had to bite my tongue - we have lost good people form our church because the elected church elders fouled up BIG time here. To their credit, the church elders brought in some conflict resolution people who did a series of workshops with us (on Matt 18:15, among other verses) but the damage done was never undone. We've just done better, since.
At various times in our church, children have been welcomed, or not. At one time there was pressure on those of us with young (and often very active) children to keep them quiet and still. One friend gave us an ultimatum - we needed to have the kids in Sunday School with a Sunday School roster, or she would have to remove her family because she was being made to feel unwelcome at church. I had myself hear various church members say things like, "At church when we pray, I do not like other noises to intrude on my communication with God." That one made me really angry - as if distraction is ever a valid excuse for not keeping your mind on God. How distracted is God? And how damaging is it, when such people feel that their spiritual needs are paramount and anybody else's needs which might conflict with their own very rigid requirements can be simply dismissed as unimportant?
Our church is small; when the children were old enough, it disbanded for lack of numbers.
When difficult child 3 was born, he was my fourth. Sunday School was about to begin (thanks to the pressure from congregation members who wanted a kid-free zone - notably, single childless women). Although we had a 'cry room' up the back with sound piped in from the service, I simply sat up the back with my kids and put a few quiet toys and books on the floor. Right up the back nobody should be able to see if I breastfed the baby. In our church, we do this and nobody objects. Of course it can be done under a blanket or in other visually discreet ways. My problem with difficult child 3, however, was that he was a noisy feeder! I produced enough milk for an orphanage and especially if the service suddenly went quiet while the baby was feeding, you could hear the gulps, gurgles and slurps. I could hear quiet chuckles from other mothers and grandmothers. They were okay with it but I was aware it was a distraction. I tried to keep difficult child 3's feeding to louder times in the service.
When difficult child 3 was older and talking loudly, or fussing in other ways, I marched him out the back. I scolded him, I spanked him, I tried to use this strong aversion method to teach him that you DO. NOT. MAKE. NOISE. IN. CHURCH. It did not work. Now we know why - he just did not understand, and he was not capable of being quiet. Perhaps partly as a result of this, he tends to avoid coming to church with us. He has a hard time following the content of the church service which is another reason. He certainly would have had a hard time with yesterday's preacher!
We also had problems at church with other congregation members who had their own strong ideas on parenting. You will know this kind of tactic from family and friends, I am sure. I'm talking about the sort of people who will try to explain to you, lovingly, how you could be a more effective parent. When you try to explain in return that your child has a medical diagnosis which makes the usual parenting methods a challenge and often ineffective, they seem to accept this but as soon as your back is turned, they try their own methods out on your kids. The belief is, I think, that they can then present you with a miraculously compliant child and smilingly accept your undying gratitude.
Our church is very much like a family. And you know what that means - a blend of people each with their own agenda. They love other family members but have their own issues too.
A close friend of mine (and sadly, one of those who left due to misapplication of Matt. 18:15) witnessed what she described as abuse directed at difficult child 1 when he was about 8 years old. difficult child 1 was looking at the overhead projector lens. This stands on a low table and is used to display songsheets on the screen. After the service it was off, of course. difficult child 1 was peering through the big lens on top, trying to see what it did. A church member (male, authoritarian) told him to leave it alone. difficult child 1 apparently ignored him. Of course, we knew that to stop difficult child 1 the only way to do it was to get his attention with a touch on his shoulder then give simple instructions. Also we had to let him follow his curiosity so he would then feel able to move on to something else.
This man yelled at difficult child 1 again. Again no response. So he strode forward and grabbed difficult child 1 and dragged him away. My friend witnessed this and immediately intervened. She is a domestic violence survivor and particularly hates seeing adult males bullying younger or more vulnerable people. I recall at the time of this incident (which I did not know about for a few years) this man was also very critical of me and my kids. He and his family have since left our church - his attempts to control were not working here, because this is a consensus community church and not one that works with a single dominant personality trying to be in control.
There were times in our church, especially in the early days of our involvement, when I nearly walked away because I felt I was being excluded or disapproved of, primarily because of the kids. But this is also a dynamic church and it has to change and adapt to the people who attend. We are more informal - I posted in the morning thread yesterday that it was so cold at yesterday's service that we lit the log fire and huddled around it. We have members who bring their dogs to church. Any dog likely to be disruptive has to go outside but one dog (owners are church elders) is very well behaved and often sits under our altar table (or beside the fire!). Sometimes this dog will quietly get up and wander through the congregation, allowing himself to be given a few quiet pats. He seems to know who to go to, who needs to feel loved a little more. His owner will signal him back if he feels the dog is a distraction; he's got him trained with hand signals.
A church needs to be loving and flexible. Too often they are not, because a church is primarily formed by the people who attend and especially those who are in control. I am not talking about the officials; I am talking about those individuals whose opinions tend to set the mood of the place. Such as the woman at our church who wanted absolute quiet during prayer time (she used to complain about neighbours mowing their lawns during prayer time!)
Having children in a church of mostly intolerant adults is very difficult. But your children will not always be children, it will pass. Moving to another church is not generally an option - we had moved from one church to our current one (it was very difficult to do this because I was not welcomed initially by some strong-willed people). Always remember, your faith and your church are not the same thing.
Do not expect the practical help you need to come from anyone at the church. It is possible that the pastor will actively discourage anybody from helping you, because he may be like my former fellow church member (yes, she eventually left too) who wanted absolute quiet during prayer and nearly drove off every family with young children from the church community. From the pastor's point of view, orating to an audience who are able to focus totally on him, is clearly preferable to having people shuffle, fidget and be distracted by a kid up the back whispering loudly (or shouting) "But I want it now!"
If you get practical help from the church members, consider it a bonus. Any help you ever get from anybody, pay it back to them. Do something kind for them and for other people.
I wish you lived closer so I could invite you to our church. Better yet, I wish I could invite this woman and your pastor to visit our church. It is often described as an eye-opener (as distinct from an eye-waterer!).
Because of the communal nature of our church, I am sometimes in the position of having to manage the church service from out the front, with all the distractions and issues of individual congregation members being a random factor. I do understand that some more inflexible individuals trying to do this job with their own fixed ideas needing to be expressed, can do a lot of harm to the will of the people present. I have learned to be flexible and to let things happen sometimes. We do get visitors or new people with small children and we have to constantly reassure them that the kids are welcome; that it's okay, we understand about a little noise. Maybe remove noisy kids to the back room at prayer time, but even that is optional.
How else can kids learn about faith?
Liahona, these things happen. Church is not perfect. But this can be resolved.
I think the classic WWJD? is the way to move forward with this. But remember Matt. 18:15 and keep it confidential until it gets to the stage where you have already tried the individual approach without success. Then Matt. 18:16-17 comes into play.
Marg
It is sad, but this happens in churches. I won't single out churches, but they are places where we expect compassion, from policy/teachings/whatever. This happens in other social groups too.
We experienced this too. I remember when I was a child (I grew up in the church, very much) and I tried to do what we were taught to do and help the less fortunate. There was a family whose father used to drink and gamble every night, he left his two girls in his truck until late at night, parked in the street outside the club. At first the older girl used to bully me but I made friends with her and invited both girls to our church choir. Only the older girl came and it was difficult for her, I now realise, with undoubtedly objections from her parents (the club in those days was closed on Sundays). In choir we wore robes (quick throw-over things) which hid her lack of decent dress. She was one of us, or at least looked the part. And she loved to sing. But older members of the congregation came and spoke to me, told me I was walking into moral danger if I associated with this girl. After only two weeks, the girl told me she would not be back because she did not feel welcome. I know the choir mistress was not the problem, I was there and could witness everything said and done. I suspect now that someone went up to my friend (probably in the street) and told her to stay away from me. And from church.
Sadly, people at church, despite what church is supposed to be about, are just the same as people not at church. In other words people everywhere will be self-serving, lack compassion, are untrained and lacking any understanding in the health professions especially mental health. Some churches (our current one included) do not have a trained pastor but are instead run by a collective. An untrained pastor can make devastating mistakes.
At our church yesterday a visiting preacher (I would like to know more about him; very charismatic, but I got an uncomfortable 'vibe') spoke (somewhat randomly) and mentioned in passing, Matthew Ch 18 vs 15. "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over." The preacher commented that because our church has been going for nearly 50 years now, we're obviously really good with this one. I had to bite my tongue - we have lost good people form our church because the elected church elders fouled up BIG time here. To their credit, the church elders brought in some conflict resolution people who did a series of workshops with us (on Matt 18:15, among other verses) but the damage done was never undone. We've just done better, since.
At various times in our church, children have been welcomed, or not. At one time there was pressure on those of us with young (and often very active) children to keep them quiet and still. One friend gave us an ultimatum - we needed to have the kids in Sunday School with a Sunday School roster, or she would have to remove her family because she was being made to feel unwelcome at church. I had myself hear various church members say things like, "At church when we pray, I do not like other noises to intrude on my communication with God." That one made me really angry - as if distraction is ever a valid excuse for not keeping your mind on God. How distracted is God? And how damaging is it, when such people feel that their spiritual needs are paramount and anybody else's needs which might conflict with their own very rigid requirements can be simply dismissed as unimportant?
Our church is small; when the children were old enough, it disbanded for lack of numbers.
When difficult child 3 was born, he was my fourth. Sunday School was about to begin (thanks to the pressure from congregation members who wanted a kid-free zone - notably, single childless women). Although we had a 'cry room' up the back with sound piped in from the service, I simply sat up the back with my kids and put a few quiet toys and books on the floor. Right up the back nobody should be able to see if I breastfed the baby. In our church, we do this and nobody objects. Of course it can be done under a blanket or in other visually discreet ways. My problem with difficult child 3, however, was that he was a noisy feeder! I produced enough milk for an orphanage and especially if the service suddenly went quiet while the baby was feeding, you could hear the gulps, gurgles and slurps. I could hear quiet chuckles from other mothers and grandmothers. They were okay with it but I was aware it was a distraction. I tried to keep difficult child 3's feeding to louder times in the service.
When difficult child 3 was older and talking loudly, or fussing in other ways, I marched him out the back. I scolded him, I spanked him, I tried to use this strong aversion method to teach him that you DO. NOT. MAKE. NOISE. IN. CHURCH. It did not work. Now we know why - he just did not understand, and he was not capable of being quiet. Perhaps partly as a result of this, he tends to avoid coming to church with us. He has a hard time following the content of the church service which is another reason. He certainly would have had a hard time with yesterday's preacher!
We also had problems at church with other congregation members who had their own strong ideas on parenting. You will know this kind of tactic from family and friends, I am sure. I'm talking about the sort of people who will try to explain to you, lovingly, how you could be a more effective parent. When you try to explain in return that your child has a medical diagnosis which makes the usual parenting methods a challenge and often ineffective, they seem to accept this but as soon as your back is turned, they try their own methods out on your kids. The belief is, I think, that they can then present you with a miraculously compliant child and smilingly accept your undying gratitude.
Our church is very much like a family. And you know what that means - a blend of people each with their own agenda. They love other family members but have their own issues too.
A close friend of mine (and sadly, one of those who left due to misapplication of Matt. 18:15) witnessed what she described as abuse directed at difficult child 1 when he was about 8 years old. difficult child 1 was looking at the overhead projector lens. This stands on a low table and is used to display songsheets on the screen. After the service it was off, of course. difficult child 1 was peering through the big lens on top, trying to see what it did. A church member (male, authoritarian) told him to leave it alone. difficult child 1 apparently ignored him. Of course, we knew that to stop difficult child 1 the only way to do it was to get his attention with a touch on his shoulder then give simple instructions. Also we had to let him follow his curiosity so he would then feel able to move on to something else.
This man yelled at difficult child 1 again. Again no response. So he strode forward and grabbed difficult child 1 and dragged him away. My friend witnessed this and immediately intervened. She is a domestic violence survivor and particularly hates seeing adult males bullying younger or more vulnerable people. I recall at the time of this incident (which I did not know about for a few years) this man was also very critical of me and my kids. He and his family have since left our church - his attempts to control were not working here, because this is a consensus community church and not one that works with a single dominant personality trying to be in control.
There were times in our church, especially in the early days of our involvement, when I nearly walked away because I felt I was being excluded or disapproved of, primarily because of the kids. But this is also a dynamic church and it has to change and adapt to the people who attend. We are more informal - I posted in the morning thread yesterday that it was so cold at yesterday's service that we lit the log fire and huddled around it. We have members who bring their dogs to church. Any dog likely to be disruptive has to go outside but one dog (owners are church elders) is very well behaved and often sits under our altar table (or beside the fire!). Sometimes this dog will quietly get up and wander through the congregation, allowing himself to be given a few quiet pats. He seems to know who to go to, who needs to feel loved a little more. His owner will signal him back if he feels the dog is a distraction; he's got him trained with hand signals.
A church needs to be loving and flexible. Too often they are not, because a church is primarily formed by the people who attend and especially those who are in control. I am not talking about the officials; I am talking about those individuals whose opinions tend to set the mood of the place. Such as the woman at our church who wanted absolute quiet during prayer time (she used to complain about neighbours mowing their lawns during prayer time!)
Having children in a church of mostly intolerant adults is very difficult. But your children will not always be children, it will pass. Moving to another church is not generally an option - we had moved from one church to our current one (it was very difficult to do this because I was not welcomed initially by some strong-willed people). Always remember, your faith and your church are not the same thing.
Do not expect the practical help you need to come from anyone at the church. It is possible that the pastor will actively discourage anybody from helping you, because he may be like my former fellow church member (yes, she eventually left too) who wanted absolute quiet during prayer and nearly drove off every family with young children from the church community. From the pastor's point of view, orating to an audience who are able to focus totally on him, is clearly preferable to having people shuffle, fidget and be distracted by a kid up the back whispering loudly (or shouting) "But I want it now!"
If you get practical help from the church members, consider it a bonus. Any help you ever get from anybody, pay it back to them. Do something kind for them and for other people.
I wish you lived closer so I could invite you to our church. Better yet, I wish I could invite this woman and your pastor to visit our church. It is often described as an eye-opener (as distinct from an eye-waterer!).
Because of the communal nature of our church, I am sometimes in the position of having to manage the church service from out the front, with all the distractions and issues of individual congregation members being a random factor. I do understand that some more inflexible individuals trying to do this job with their own fixed ideas needing to be expressed, can do a lot of harm to the will of the people present. I have learned to be flexible and to let things happen sometimes. We do get visitors or new people with small children and we have to constantly reassure them that the kids are welcome; that it's okay, we understand about a little noise. Maybe remove noisy kids to the back room at prayer time, but even that is optional.
How else can kids learn about faith?
Liahona, these things happen. Church is not perfect. But this can be resolved.
I think the classic WWJD? is the way to move forward with this. But remember Matt. 18:15 and keep it confidential until it gets to the stage where you have already tried the individual approach without success. Then Matt. 18:16-17 comes into play.
Marg
