...Aaaaand it just got worse
- Thread starter greenrene
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2much2recover
Well-Known Member
Trust me that you don't want her at there on her own without it. In my state once they turn 18 and have not signed one they are considered as responsible as any other person. If they are be given state money to take care of her after 18, the providers can "lock you out of having a say" by saying your daughter has "free will". And yes they can say it with a POA but you can really push the issue with them if they get to pushy. The whole system for services for people with these disabilities is absolutely broken. (Even my sister's judge agreed with this) A whole lot of abuse (all ways) takes place on these individuals on an ongoing basis and depending how weak you Department of Family services is - the worse it will be. Vendors for services for your daughter will be supportive of you but like a sociopath not follow up on anything they promise you once they are being paid by the state. Trust me it took me along time to find out what I know now............and I am not afraid to speak up to prevent this type of behavior on people who provide these services.
Just remember - POA doesn't cost anything but maybe a quick trip to a lawyers office but Legal Guardianship can become quite expensive and very time consuming. You have to go through a judge, with a lawyer for your daughter (that you will pay for + court costs) to met the requirements of Guardianship. Even the required yearly basic paperwork is filed through a lawyer to review (more $) You can look up the rules for Guardianship by looking at your States law page. Also be sure when she turns 18 to get her Medicare payments signed over to you as a Representative Payee.
Just remember - POA doesn't cost anything but maybe a quick trip to a lawyers office but Legal Guardianship can become quite expensive and very time consuming. You have to go through a judge, with a lawyer for your daughter (that you will pay for + court costs) to met the requirements of Guardianship. Even the required yearly basic paperwork is filed through a lawyer to review (more $) You can look up the rules for Guardianship by looking at your States law page. Also be sure when she turns 18 to get her Medicare payments signed over to you as a Representative Payee.
2much2recover
Well-Known Member
Every state s different but even in my lawyer heavy state, a person must be proven to be incapacitated, going through professionals to verify ($$$). Unless that has been done then the person is considered a completely functional adult - which no one can interfere with their "rights" until someone alerts the judge that the adult is incapacitated. Trust me, I had to affirm and get a Dr's affirmation every year to prove my sister's continued incapacity even though her IQ at 50 remained the same.
Lil
Well-Known Member
The problem I see with a POA, is that it is something she has to grant to you. If she doesn't want you to have power of attorney, she can flatly refuse to sign it and she can take it away at any time by notifying people that she has revoked it. It gives you the authority to manage her affairs, but does not stop her from managing her own affairs and ignoring you. You have no actual authority over her. For instance, I had POA for my father. I used it to sell his car. He couldn't make that sale invalid and make the guy give the car back, but if he'd not wanted it to happen, he could have stopped me by revoking the POA, and he could have done anything he wanted without my approval too. It sounds to me like you really need to talk to an attorney in your state that handles probate matters and guardianship.
2much2recover
Well-Known Member
The daughter doesn't need to have the mind to revoke it. If all you have is POA, others can manipulate her into doing away with the POA... so THEY can control her. These people really exist out there.
Maybe, start with POA, as it's faster and cheaper, and keep working on the guardianship?
Maybe, start with POA, as it's faster and cheaper, and keep working on the guardianship?
2much2recover
Well-Known Member
Yeah well that is where you have to be reactive and be ready to stand by that POA to the people whom you hire to work for you/her. The less they know the better and the more you act like you are in charge and on top of what you are doing (it is an eyeopening education) you really shouldn't have a problem I trained my sister who had an IQ of 50 to NEVER sign anything.. I would be very surprised if a hired/contracted government company would push the law with someone with ID's to invalidate the POA - would make them look very bad to the whole ID's professional and consumers and provider communities. Plus once they forced the situation into guardianship court you could probably sue them for coercion.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
You want Guardianship, not POA.
2much2recover
Well-Known Member
How about we settle on going to some Family Groups of people with ID's (that's the new term for Developmentally disabilities) Because these family groups are better to advise you from a been there done that perspective. Trust me there is a feed the lawyer game in guardianship and if your daughter has no money, those legal cost of Guardianship will be borne by you and husband. The whole POA vs Guardianship issue is a lot different for people with ID's than say the elderly, as most of them have no money left to steal - but they more so need a competent decision-maker. But in almost every state, as all know it is usually stacked against consumers you will find the Lawyer racket wants it's piece of the pie, and that costs are borne by the people who want guardianship over people who have no money. All of Guardianship is stacked that way. Had I been a paid guardian for my sister ( starting at $65 an HOUR and up to $100PH annual paperwork along is 10-15 hours) plus legal fees and court costs, anyone can where guardianship can quickly run through all but the richest estates.
How do I know these things? First of all I took a college course (Professional Guardianship certificate and state tests - different than family guardianship) and I have a difficult child that would steal every last penny from me should she ever get her hands on my money. Trust me, I know my crap
How do I know these things? First of all I took a college course (Professional Guardianship certificate and state tests - different than family guardianship) and I have a difficult child that would steal every last penny from me should she ever get her hands on my money. Trust me, I know my crap
Lil
Well-Known Member
Well....as one of those in the "lawyer racket" (granted, a civil servant for the last two decades but private attorney before that), I can safely say that getting a guardianship is simply not that expensive (yes, there are fees involved) and a parent being a guardian for an adult child is very different than having a professional guardian appointed. Yes, there will be filings annually (most likely), but most intelligent people can take care of those with little effort and a few minutes talking with the clerks of the probate court.
Many attorney's have free consultations. Every state's laws are somewhat different regarding what is required of guardians and conservators and what fees are required and whether the guardian or ward pays those fees. A Power of Attorney will not let you do anything against your daughter's will, such as put her in treatment, put her in school, etc.
Talk to a lawyer, then make up your mind.
Many attorney's have free consultations. Every state's laws are somewhat different regarding what is required of guardians and conservators and what fees are required and whether the guardian or ward pays those fees. A Power of Attorney will not let you do anything against your daughter's will, such as put her in treatment, put her in school, etc.
Talk to a lawyer, then make up your mind.
2much2recover
Well-Known Member
OK since I guess even though none of you have never been, there, done that with an actual ward of the state I guess since we have a lawyer here, a lawyer (but not in the field of Probate) she would know more than I do about which is the right way to go for someone with Intelectual Disabilities. Especially the billing part - since as she says it has been so long since she did any billing. Again orginanl poster needs to talk with people in the ID's community to help her decide which is the best way to go for her family member. And just because someone here on the board has a law degree, doesn't mean they know anything about the IQ community and what types of protections and programs are offered for ID community members and their family. DUH - oh, it is not the same for "regular" people. The whole ID community has a host of separate issues that are addressed in each state in a different way. However since difficult child is nearing 18 it is time to get a plane in place.
giving information they know nothing about unless they have actually worked in the field of ID's. Yeah I am making it up about the lawyers fee's just to scare OP, (rolls eyes) Making up all the information as I go along WTF??? Seriously?
Someone is a right fighter for sure!
giving information they know nothing about unless they have actually worked in the field of ID's. Yeah I am making it up about the lawyers fee's just to scare OP, (rolls eyes) Making up all the information as I go along WTF??? Seriously?Someone is a right fighter for sure!
2much2recover
Well-Known Member
Ah, just read you are in the same state as me so I can tell you a bunch about the pro's and cons about planning for your daughter - and how to find resources on line (no legal advice - covering my butt here LOL) But just so you know the Judge my sister had, (we had a great relationship with this Judge) well even she was always exasperated by just how broken the system is in this state and encouraged me to report both Medicare and Medicaid fraud when I uncovered major wrong doing by providers in the ID community.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
I found getting guardianship easy. Maybe because Sonic agreed. I know we didn't pay for a lawyer. I'm not sure if one was appointed to us or Sonic or both...it was four years ago and so non-drama that I barely remember it.
We went to court once. Every year we have to file a short form about if anything has changed. That's it. Honestly, we went through it and it was as easy as paying a traffic ticket for us in Wisconsin. The only time it matters is that we have to sign for him, like we did when he was a minor, and we dole out his money, because he would spend it all in one lump sum. His disability and his work pay go into a special guardianship account. He can't get into it. It helps that he agrees that he needs me to dole out his money or he'd spend it all, but it's not hard. I just have to make sure his few bills get paid and that he has enough money when he wants extras, like to buy stuff or do things on weekends.
I can't state how easy it has been, but I don't know how it would go if your child fought you on it. Probably the relationship would be tough, but people who actually mature late, or do not get to an adult level because they CAN'T need help. Sonic's disability payments, combined with his work pay allow him to have his own apartment that I pay the rent on (it is not in my name, I don't think) out of his own money, his cable bill and his electric and heat which is maybe $21 a month in his small one bedroom. He also gets the perk of free cab rides all around town as he did not want to get a driver's license.
Now I'm rambling. At any rate, this was not that complicated for us and continues to be easy. I'm sure every state is different and perhaps every circumstance is different. Sonic was known to have autism since he was in middle school and that was on his records so the school helped us do everything we did. It is good to get your plan together way before the child graduates.
This does not cost us money. It is Sonic's money. He gets Disability and has a daily part-time job.
We went to court once. Every year we have to file a short form about if anything has changed. That's it. Honestly, we went through it and it was as easy as paying a traffic ticket for us in Wisconsin. The only time it matters is that we have to sign for him, like we did when he was a minor, and we dole out his money, because he would spend it all in one lump sum. His disability and his work pay go into a special guardianship account. He can't get into it. It helps that he agrees that he needs me to dole out his money or he'd spend it all, but it's not hard. I just have to make sure his few bills get paid and that he has enough money when he wants extras, like to buy stuff or do things on weekends.
I can't state how easy it has been, but I don't know how it would go if your child fought you on it. Probably the relationship would be tough, but people who actually mature late, or do not get to an adult level because they CAN'T need help. Sonic's disability payments, combined with his work pay allow him to have his own apartment that I pay the rent on (it is not in my name, I don't think) out of his own money, his cable bill and his electric and heat which is maybe $21 a month in his small one bedroom. He also gets the perk of free cab rides all around town as he did not want to get a driver's license.
Now I'm rambling. At any rate, this was not that complicated for us and continues to be easy. I'm sure every state is different and perhaps every circumstance is different. Sonic was known to have autism since he was in middle school and that was on his records so the school helped us do everything we did. It is good to get your plan together way before the child graduates.
This does not cost us money. It is Sonic's money. He gets Disability and has a daily part-time job.
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2much2recover
Well-Known Member
It costs us 4K in our state just for the lawyer in the beginning to start the process - that's because in our state the lawyers have the process all locked up.
2much2recover
Well-Known Member
The problems here in this state is there is a high waiting list for those with ID's needing care and services. (I know at one time 6K on waiting list.) So the quickest way to get service for your child is to abandon them into state care where then the state is forced to move that (adult child) to the top of the list. Thus creates the problem, if you don't have a POA, having abandoned your child and gotten DCF involved it is highly unlikely that the family will be then chosen as the Guardian. So if the family hires the lawyer to get guardianship - they may get stuck paying both the lawyers bills and the guardianship bills as well. To get around this - this state has Family focused groups in support of people with ID's to help them both get the help they need and help to advise on the best legal ways around strict guardianship laws.
I had to go this route because my parents never made any arrangements for my sister and I was helping a long time before Guardianship which we because we got involved with a company that was stealing my sister's money and basically abusing their situation and they used my sister's "free will" (not having been declared incompetent) to basically try and shut the family out. Therefore we had no choice to go this route. Yes, she was being held hostage by a for profit company. The whole state is screwed up about people with these disabilities and the companies that service them and our Governor isn't exactly the type that wants to hear or make any changes about this problem.
I had to go this route because my parents never made any arrangements for my sister and I was helping a long time before Guardianship which we because we got involved with a company that was stealing my sister's money and basically abusing their situation and they used my sister's "free will" (not having been declared incompetent) to basically try and shut the family out. Therefore we had no choice to go this route. Yes, she was being held hostage by a for profit company. The whole state is screwed up about people with these disabilities and the companies that service them and our Governor isn't exactly the type that wants to hear or make any changes about this problem.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
2Much, I'm not sure you have the right program. This is for disabled people and they don't have waiting lists here for disabled people. Other people who need assistance are on waiting lists, but the disabled, who actually are bonafide state qualified, get services at once. The courts didn't pick the guardian. We did. Me. I am the guardian. It was our decision and Sonic agreed. It was easy, quick and financially painless. He has all the services the state has to offer and if you think your govenor, whoever he is, is anti-entitlements, try having Gov. Scott Walker. But even he doesn't try to block people who have bonafide, state sanctioned disabilities or put them on waiting lists. It's not that bad. In fact, it was kind of a snap.
2much2recover
Well-Known Member
Here is the information on the wait list and other information the family may need. I am sorry, maybe I wasn't clear, there is no wait list for SSI or medicaid, but there is a wait-list for what is called in the ID community "Community Based Services" which include such things as help with independent living and all other necessary programs. Here is the info about the wait-list: http://www.oppaga.state.fl.us/MonitorDocs/Reports/pdf/0932rpt.pdf
Currently there are over 11K on the wait-list for these services. OP needs to look at: http://ahca.myflorida.com/
plus: http://www.dfmc-florida.org/ and: http://www.floridasvoice.org/
Here is info on guardianship vs POA : http://newrightlaw.com/practice-areas/practice-areasdisability-benefits
http://www.fddc.org/sites/default/files/file/publications/Guardianship Family Manual_0.pdf
Sorry people the programs in Florida are so screwed up in just lights my fire when other people don't understand the screwed up ways things are done in this state. Getting into the programs is just the beginning of what goes on in these programs ugh! been there done that and at really (the system) makes me POed! Touchy subject because I can not begin to tell you all the ways my poor sister was abused by those people being paid by the state via federal funds - zero accountability in this state or for being able to get a company for closed down even in founded abuse situations.
Currently there are over 11K on the wait-list for these services. OP needs to look at: http://ahca.myflorida.com/
plus: http://www.dfmc-florida.org/ and: http://www.floridasvoice.org/
Here is info on guardianship vs POA : http://newrightlaw.com/practice-areas/practice-areasdisability-benefits
http://www.fddc.org/sites/default/files/file/publications/Guardianship Family Manual_0.pdf
Sorry people the programs in Florida are so screwed up in just lights my fire when other people don't understand the screwed up ways things are done in this state. Getting into the programs is just the beginning of what goes on in these programs ugh! been there done that and at really (the system) makes me POed! Touchy subject because I can not begin to tell you all the ways my poor sister was abused by those people being paid by the state via federal funds - zero accountability in this state or for being able to get a company for closed down even in founded abuse situations.
Lil
Well-Known Member
OK since I guess even though none of you have never been, there, done that with an actual ward of the state I guess since we have a lawyer here, a lawyer (but not in the field of Probate) she would know more than I do about which is the right way to go for someone with Intelectual Disabilities. Especially the billing part - since as she says it has been so long since she did any billing. Again orginanl poster needs to talk with people in the ID's community to help her decide which is the best way to go for her family member. And just because someone here on the board has a law degree, doesn't mean they know anything about the IQ community and what types of protections and programs are offered for ID community members and their family. DUH - oh, it is not the same for "regular" people. The whole ID community has a host of separate issues that are addressed in each state in a different way. However since difficult child is nearing 18 it is time to get a plane in place.
Someone is a right fighter for sure!
Okay...
What exactly did I say that was so RUDE about your advice or HURTFUL about you personally? I did not say she should not check out your advice. Simply to check a lawyer and then make up her mind. I ALSO pointed out all states are different.
Incidently, just because I'm not in private practice now does NOT mean I know nothing about the field and in fact I work in Social Services...and I CERTAINLY know that a power of attorney is NOT what she needs.
But rest assured, I will offer not one single suggestion again on this thread or likely on this forum. Not worth having someone be so rude when I'm only trying to help.
2much2recover
Well-Known Member
I guess this is what I was referring to. Unless someone has actually paid the lawyers bills, been through the whole Guardianship court system they really can not say it can't cost that much. I guess the expense is relevant to how much money one has. If someone is a millionaire, I guess having a paid guardian and a lawyer to file all the paperwork would be a bargain. And my point here is not to argue with people but to share what I learned with what I now know (from looking it up) is a resident of the same state and therefore IS SUBJECT and material to what I am posting.
Also this is considered giving legal advice. In the ID community it is quite common for parents to have POA rather than the more expensive guardianship. And yes there is another alternative which I linked for the OP or anyone else that wants to look it up.
Sorry this is tough subject for me because I had to learn the PROBATE AND GUARDIANSHIP LAWS the hard way because people were being abusive to my sister (So I absolutely do know what I am talking about.) I am probably being much touchier then normal as it is a holiday and I am, of course, missing her. Again these types of issues here in Florida, it is one big Cluster eff. I am also touchy about it as well as I have reported companies, people and agencies for not doing their jobs in not only not protecting my sister but other situations with other people with disabilities I observed as well. I have been told by enough people that I do not know what I am talking about (who don't want to go to jail or have to pay the state money back) that it sets me off when people tell me I don't know what I am talking about. Anything anyone wants to know about adults with ID's, the laws, the programs, POA vs Guardianship etc. they is a placed called Google where anything someone wants to learn about these subjects can be found. That's where I spent many, many hours learning this stuff. Even State Statutes can be found via Google : ) I take most of my self-confidence from what I am saying via the Probate Judge I worked so closely with, who valued the information I shared with her and shared her own opinions on the state of services with me. Between her opinion and doing best by my sister I don't need anyone else to value my input.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
2Much2Recover, you're not listening (screams loud). Ok. got your attention?
We did it and we didn't have a lawyer. It didn't cost us anything. You don't understand what getting guardianship entails or what it requires. Trust me. $4000? We wouldn't have had $400 if it had cost THAT much. It didn't cost us anything. I think we went to court without a lawyer. If we had one, it was a free lawyer. You are making it a much bigger deal than it is, and I'm afraid you are going to scare this poster into thinking it's a money market to get guardianship. I know others who also have guardianship, none who have gone through that kind of mess you're talking about. Maybe if it's an older adult it's different, but a disabled child is not that big a deal and is not costly. IT IS NOT COSTLY OR HARD TO ACCOMPLISH! YOU DO NOT NEED TO WORK CLOSELY OR, I BELIEVE, EVEN HAVE A LAWYER!I just asked my husband, who was in this with me.
Me: When we went for guardianship for Sonic, did cost us anything?
Him: (shaking head) No.
Me: Did we have a lawyer?
Him: No. Why are you asking?
I let him read th e post.
Him: She's wrong. It's not like that.
There. We both said it. We went through it. We do know. No POA is even involved, by the way. You are making a simple process sound enormously perilous and complicated.
HLM, I can't make you change your mind, but I hope that the original poster will get information from Aging and Disabilities, where we did, rather than this forum. I may be the only parent here who has actually done it. It's not the right place to get information. I just brought it up because it seems that if the daughter is cognitively impaired she should look into it, rather than discipline this child, but I think her resources should first be from the school and her local office of Aging and Disabilities and not here. Then do what you are told to do from Aging and Disabilities. They will give good advice and if you actually need a lawyer in your state, you will be referred to one, maybe one that costs nothing. But I know we didnt' need a lawyer here.
Good luck to the original poster!!!
We did it and we didn't have a lawyer. It didn't cost us anything. You don't understand what getting guardianship entails or what it requires. Trust me. $4000? We wouldn't have had $400 if it had cost THAT much. It didn't cost us anything. I think we went to court without a lawyer. If we had one, it was a free lawyer. You are making it a much bigger deal than it is, and I'm afraid you are going to scare this poster into thinking it's a money market to get guardianship. I know others who also have guardianship, none who have gone through that kind of mess you're talking about. Maybe if it's an older adult it's different, but a disabled child is not that big a deal and is not costly. IT IS NOT COSTLY OR HARD TO ACCOMPLISH! YOU DO NOT NEED TO WORK CLOSELY OR, I BELIEVE, EVEN HAVE A LAWYER!I just asked my husband, who was in this with me.
Me: When we went for guardianship for Sonic, did cost us anything?
Him: (shaking head) No.
Me: Did we have a lawyer?
Him: No. Why are you asking?
I let him read th e post.
Him: She's wrong. It's not like that.
There. We both said it. We went through it. We do know. No POA is even involved, by the way. You are making a simple process sound enormously perilous and complicated.
HLM, I can't make you change your mind, but I hope that the original poster will get information from Aging and Disabilities, where we did, rather than this forum. I may be the only parent here who has actually done it. It's not the right place to get information. I just brought it up because it seems that if the daughter is cognitively impaired she should look into it, rather than discipline this child, but I think her resources should first be from the school and her local office of Aging and Disabilities and not here. Then do what you are told to do from Aging and Disabilities. They will give good advice and if you actually need a lawyer in your state, you will be referred to one, maybe one that costs nothing. But I know we didnt' need a lawyer here.
Good luck to the original poster!!!
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