Aaaaannnnd ... there goes another kid, back to Russia
- Thread starter TerryJ2
- Start date
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
in my opinion from my experiences twelve is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy old to adopt a child and expect him to attach to you and listen to some harsh rules on top of it. And in this kid's case, he had to go to a new culture on top of it. No surprise after reading the story that this didn't work out. Too bad he had to live on the streets.
Adopting a child from another country SOUNDS like a great thing but I always wonder about it. I do think some of the requirements to adopt here in the US are not the greatest, esp as so many children even as babies end up unadopted or are considered unadoptable. I know people who would be amazing parents who very much want to adopt but ten or twelve years later are still waiting, and not just for an infant. The most amazing sp ed teacher we had kept trying to adopt. She and her husband couldn't because she has epilepsy. It is treated, very well controlled and she hasn't had a seizure since her early teens. But she and her husband cannot adopt because of her epilepsy and they tried everything possible even private adoption. They cannot afford a private adoption, and saved for almost eight years to do a foreign adoption. They couldn't do the foreign adoption because even after all the saving they could not afford to fly to another country multiple times. She fell in love with a child in an orphanage overseas, but there was always one more trip that had to be made. Personally it sounded like a scam esp after she found out that this particular country refused to release children unless you could pay large bribes to officials on top of the travel and fees required. It broke my heart when she got hurt so badly. She was the most amazing mom to her husband's adult (when I met her) daughter.
Twelve is a hard enough age with-o having to move to another country and learn to fit in with a family. I feel bad that the kid had to live on the streets for so long, esp after his adoptive parents made him work and took his money (if that is the truth). I wish someone had known the story and been willing/able to help, or that he had known to contact the Russian Embassy or whatever it is called. Though I do not know if they would have helped him, at least it would have been a little bit of home to know where it was and/or be in contact with them.
How could anyone have thought that the adoption of a twelve year old from a different country and culture was a good thing?
Twelve is a hard enough age with-o having to move to another country and learn to fit in with a family. I feel bad that the kid had to live on the streets for so long, esp after his adoptive parents made him work and took his money (if that is the truth). I wish someone had known the story and been willing/able to help, or that he had known to contact the Russian Embassy or whatever it is called. Though I do not know if they would have helped him, at least it would have been a little bit of home to know where it was and/or be in contact with them.
How could anyone have thought that the adoption of a twelve year old from a different country and culture was a good thing?
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
It isn't that hard to adopt in the US. Even gay couples can adopt, especially if they want to adopt through social services. Certain adoption agencies can make up insane rules that bar certain people, but that's them doing it...it's not the law of the land. No child is ever deemed unadoptable. I've seen children who can't speak and will never be more than infants and have feeding tubes up for adoption. However, it is hard to find homes for them, of course. Now other countries are not the US and have the right to put up any barriers they like for Americans to adopt from there. You like it or lump it 
If you want to go international these days, you better believe you'll be traveling and if you don't like it or can't afford best to adopt right here in the US through social services. It costs nothing. Here's what I see with AMerican adoption.
Susie, if you want a healthy white infant you will wait forever. And it's getting to the point where it's hard to get a healthy infant of any race. People are opening their minds and hearts now when they want a baby, but many are dead set on "healthy." Since most birthmothers keep their babies, there isn't much of a supply of healthy babies out there which is why many people try to adopt overseas. Russian children are white, which is a huge bonus to some people, however Russian kids don't tend to be treated well before they are adopted and the older they are, t he harder it gets.
I did adopt overseas twice. Once we adopted our son from Hong Kong and Julie is from Korea. Julie lived here all her life and actually attached to us right away and is not even interested in Korean culture and her life turned out well. Scott was six when we got him (I thought that was young enough to forge a bond). It not only wasn't, but he missed Hong Kong/Chinese culture every day of his life with us. And he left our family. But coming to t he US gave him opportunities he would never have had in Hong Kong since, at that time, orphans were considered inferior citizens. He is a brilliant young man, has his own company, has at least a million, and did find a Chinese girl to marry so things turned out fine for him. He has been to China a lot and doesn't chose to live there.
The countries that allow Americans do adopt do so because of just those reasons. Their own society does not accept adoption and shuns adopted children, often especially girls, and they don't have the facilities to take care of so many orphaned kids. When we adopted Julie, 28 years ago, the mother of a girl child who was an unwed mother could expect to be shunned and often the daughter, also shunned, would end up a prostitute with no schooling. These mothers want a better life than that for their babies. And they don't want to be shunned. They do what they have to do. That's why overseas adoptees and Americans get together. In my first husband's case, he was fine with adoption, but he didn't want a child who was in any way black, and I didn't want to wait for twelve years so we compromised and adopted Scott and Julie. Both were very loved. Scott, the one who came at six, apparently didn't think so and didn't attach well to us (shrug). I can still say he has a good life and would not have the opportunities in Hong Kong that he had here and he must agree. He can afford to live in China or Hong Kong if that's what he wants to do. I miss him a lot...I had no idea how hard it is for older kids to attach to their families when we got him.
Now if you want to adopt out of America's foster care system, where Sonic is from, forget the "healthy." Most of them were drug/alcohol exposed and often exposed to extreme abuse. We were very lucky that Sonic was so sick that he ended up in a top notch foster home where they loved him like their own, thus making him able to attach to us when we got him at age two. That rarely happens, but it did. Our eleven year old was the one who was sexually active to Jumper and Sonic when they were so small and he wasn't sent to another country, although I'm sure our lifestyle was alien to him. But he had been abusive, we found out later, way before we got him.
I just think social workers need to warn parents who wish to adopt older children that there is a strong possibility that you are going to have a child who won't feel that you are really his parents and it is likely he will bolt one day. but they don't tell potential adoptive parents that. Normally we learn the hard way.
It sounds like this child's grandmother always wanted him. Why they didn't wait f or her boggles my mind. THIS case I believe was a botched one!
If you want to go international these days, you better believe you'll be traveling and if you don't like it or can't afford best to adopt right here in the US through social services. It costs nothing. Here's what I see with AMerican adoption.Susie, if you want a healthy white infant you will wait forever. And it's getting to the point where it's hard to get a healthy infant of any race. People are opening their minds and hearts now when they want a baby, but many are dead set on "healthy." Since most birthmothers keep their babies, there isn't much of a supply of healthy babies out there which is why many people try to adopt overseas. Russian children are white, which is a huge bonus to some people, however Russian kids don't tend to be treated well before they are adopted and the older they are, t he harder it gets.
I did adopt overseas twice. Once we adopted our son from Hong Kong and Julie is from Korea. Julie lived here all her life and actually attached to us right away and is not even interested in Korean culture and her life turned out well. Scott was six when we got him (I thought that was young enough to forge a bond). It not only wasn't, but he missed Hong Kong/Chinese culture every day of his life with us. And he left our family. But coming to t he US gave him opportunities he would never have had in Hong Kong since, at that time, orphans were considered inferior citizens. He is a brilliant young man, has his own company, has at least a million, and did find a Chinese girl to marry so things turned out fine for him. He has been to China a lot and doesn't chose to live there.
The countries that allow Americans do adopt do so because of just those reasons. Their own society does not accept adoption and shuns adopted children, often especially girls, and they don't have the facilities to take care of so many orphaned kids. When we adopted Julie, 28 years ago, the mother of a girl child who was an unwed mother could expect to be shunned and often the daughter, also shunned, would end up a prostitute with no schooling. These mothers want a better life than that for their babies. And they don't want to be shunned. They do what they have to do. That's why overseas adoptees and Americans get together. In my first husband's case, he was fine with adoption, but he didn't want a child who was in any way black, and I didn't want to wait for twelve years so we compromised and adopted Scott and Julie. Both were very loved. Scott, the one who came at six, apparently didn't think so and didn't attach well to us (shrug). I can still say he has a good life and would not have the opportunities in Hong Kong that he had here and he must agree. He can afford to live in China or Hong Kong if that's what he wants to do. I miss him a lot...I had no idea how hard it is for older kids to attach to their families when we got him.
Now if you want to adopt out of America's foster care system, where Sonic is from, forget the "healthy." Most of them were drug/alcohol exposed and often exposed to extreme abuse. We were very lucky that Sonic was so sick that he ended up in a top notch foster home where they loved him like their own, thus making him able to attach to us when we got him at age two. That rarely happens, but it did. Our eleven year old was the one who was sexually active to Jumper and Sonic when they were so small and he wasn't sent to another country, although I'm sure our lifestyle was alien to him. But he had been abusive, we found out later, way before we got him.
I just think social workers need to warn parents who wish to adopt older children that there is a strong possibility that you are going to have a child who won't feel that you are really his parents and it is likely he will bolt one day. but they don't tell potential adoptive parents that. Normally we learn the hard way.
It sounds like this child's grandmother always wanted him. Why they didn't wait f or her boggles my mind. THIS case I believe was a botched one!
SuZir
Well-Known Member
In foreign adoption you always have to remember, that every country tries to find adoptive families inside the country first. If that is not possible, then foreign adoption is possible. That is also true to Russia. Healthy babies are adopted by Russians themselves. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) and Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE) kids (and there are lots of those in Russia) and older kids don't find domestic homes and those are adopted abroad. Though Russia is limiting that quite a lot lately for domestic politics reasons.
In Russia they like to use foreign politics a tool in domestic politics. And Russians are very patriotic and love emotional patriotic stories and milk everything out of them. Russia has huge domestic problems, financial, human rights etc. And well educated middle class young Russians are starting to flee. To cover those from voters, and to keep people from leaving, the government has some time now liked to use children-stories. Both those about kids adopted to USA and abused and mistreated by their adopted parents and those about 'racist' CPS-involvements and 'robbing kids' from Russian families living abroad. Many of those stories are far from true, but they take voters attention out of their domestic issues and make their leaders look strong, when president or prime minister takes a strong stand to protect Russians abroad.
In Russia they like to use foreign politics a tool in domestic politics. And Russians are very patriotic and love emotional patriotic stories and milk everything out of them. Russia has huge domestic problems, financial, human rights etc. And well educated middle class young Russians are starting to flee. To cover those from voters, and to keep people from leaving, the government has some time now liked to use children-stories. Both those about kids adopted to USA and abused and mistreated by their adopted parents and those about 'racist' CPS-involvements and 'robbing kids' from Russian families living abroad. Many of those stories are far from true, but they take voters attention out of their domestic issues and make their leaders look strong, when president or prime minister takes a strong stand to protect Russians abroad.
DDD
Well-Known Member
I scan read the story in the paper today and honestly my first thought was the boy is a difficult child because the only thing listed in the newspaper was that his new Mother was always telling him what to do. Huh? Isn't that what all Moms have to do with adolescents? The fact that he had to live on the streets and beg for food?? The only reason he "had to do that", it appears, was because he would not (likely could not due to his history) accept that kids can't do as they want to do. Geez, I was a easy child and my boyfriend and I really believed our parents should let us get an apartment for the summer and live alone for a fw months. Loads of bio difficult children "buck" at that age. I'm guessing that his parents could not find or afford sufficient help to maintain their new family.
Like most of you I have seen very very few successful adoptions with older children. The impact of those early years really makes a huge difference. Sad. DDD
Like most of you I have seen very very few successful adoptions with older children. The impact of those early years really makes a huge difference. Sad. DDD
witzend
Well-Known Member
I have to admit that I am somewhat skeptical about this, and am not going to jump in to take sides against the parents. I was watching a documentary three nights ago where our government used a young person to stoke the fires to suit their political desires, and Russia has made it perfectly clear that they aren't interested in sending their unwanted children to the US at this point, for whatever reason.
Do you all remember the build-up to the first Iraqi war? A beautiful young Kuwaiti girl who called herself only Nayirah testified before Congress that she was an aid at a hospital and that Iraqi soldiers had come to the hospital and taken babies out of incubators, destroyed the incubators and left the babies to die on the floor, threatening to kill anyone who stopped them. This story was pounded into our heads and we had to at least believe that the Iraqis were baby killers - always a popular topic with the crowd that was in power in the USA at the time.
What do you know about this, though? Nayirah was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the US, and her testimony was organized as part of the "Citizens for a Free Kuwait" ad campaign written by the US media relations company Hill & Knowlton for the Kuwaiti government. It was pure war propaganda.
I agree that we shouldn't be adopting kids that are this old, and there are plenty of disabused babies in the USA that don't have to be torn halfway across the world to live with loving families here. But this story? I'm not buying into it hook, line, and sinker.
Do you all remember the build-up to the first Iraqi war? A beautiful young Kuwaiti girl who called herself only Nayirah testified before Congress that she was an aid at a hospital and that Iraqi soldiers had come to the hospital and taken babies out of incubators, destroyed the incubators and left the babies to die on the floor, threatening to kill anyone who stopped them. This story was pounded into our heads and we had to at least believe that the Iraqis were baby killers - always a popular topic with the crowd that was in power in the USA at the time.
What do you know about this, though? Nayirah was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the US, and her testimony was organized as part of the "Citizens for a Free Kuwait" ad campaign written by the US media relations company Hill & Knowlton for the Kuwaiti government. It was pure war propaganda.
I agree that we shouldn't be adopting kids that are this old, and there are plenty of disabused babies in the USA that don't have to be torn halfway across the world to live with loving families here. But this story? I'm not buying into it hook, line, and sinker.
witzend
Well-Known Member
It could be just because I happened to have been watching that one particular program the other night that I was able to put my finger on what made me uncomfortable about this so easily. I get very uncomfortable with any government who uses a child to get their political story across instead of good old boring facts.
SuZir
Well-Known Member
For the reasons I mentioned, Russia has been doing propaganda with kids a lot lately. It is mainly for their domestic purposes, but quite maddening especially for us who live near enough that we actually have to care.
It's always like that. When there is problems inside the Russia for those in power, all kinds of funny things start to happen in other countries to try to take Russians' interest away from their domestic issues.
Currently the real problem is that middle class is not too happy. They fear loosing their freedoms, don't trust government at all, are afraid civil rights may be reduced even more etc. And they certainly are not happy with housing situation in big cities, that prices of things they want going through the roof etc.
and because kids are such an emotional topic, kid related issues are currently used. Though, very surprisingly, one independent paper was very recently (like two weeks ago) able to publish a study in Russia there they tracked out what had happened kids who were adopted domestically. Apparently very high per cent of those kids had died compared to non-adoptive kids. No one has tracked the reasons of the deaths, but the paper asked that maybe it wasn't only Americans who 'kill their adoptive kids.' I have no idea, how big that paper is and I'm sure the story never got to government controlled media (like television) in Russia, but it wouldn't be that far fetched, if this story would be Kremlin reaction to that article.
Russian politics or society and having to play with that is not for those weak on nerves. If we could, we would happily take our land and move somewhere between Iceland and Greenland just to put few more miles between us and Russia. No such luck though.
It's always like that. When there is problems inside the Russia for those in power, all kinds of funny things start to happen in other countries to try to take Russians' interest away from their domestic issues.
Currently the real problem is that middle class is not too happy. They fear loosing their freedoms, don't trust government at all, are afraid civil rights may be reduced even more etc. And they certainly are not happy with housing situation in big cities, that prices of things they want going through the roof etc.
and because kids are such an emotional topic, kid related issues are currently used. Though, very surprisingly, one independent paper was very recently (like two weeks ago) able to publish a study in Russia there they tracked out what had happened kids who were adopted domestically. Apparently very high per cent of those kids had died compared to non-adoptive kids. No one has tracked the reasons of the deaths, but the paper asked that maybe it wasn't only Americans who 'kill their adoptive kids.' I have no idea, how big that paper is and I'm sure the story never got to government controlled media (like television) in Russia, but it wouldn't be that far fetched, if this story would be Kremlin reaction to that article.
Russian politics or society and having to play with that is not for those weak on nerves. If we could, we would happily take our land and move somewhere between Iceland and Greenland just to put few more miles between us and Russia. No such luck though.
TerryJ2
Well-Known Member
I totally agree, 12 is too old, especially for Russia, which, regardless of propaganda, has proven over and over again, that their orphans have bioparents who abuse drugs and alcohol. Too many Americans have been saddled with-no-win situations because of the damage done to these kids.
Definitely, social wkrs should tell adoptive parents that there are risks that come with-adoptions over a certain age, and from a certain culture.
The bmom we worked with-(American) absolutely did not want her son to go into foster care for all of the reasons we have discussed many times on this board. She wanted him to bond immediately. So many bmoms don't get a chance to voice their wishes.
But yeah, I think most people who read this story will figure out the truth. This kid was totally ready to live on the streets at 12 and the fact that he took off should surprise no one.
Definitely, social wkrs should tell adoptive parents that there are risks that come with-adoptions over a certain age, and from a certain culture.
The bmom we worked with-(American) absolutely did not want her son to go into foster care for all of the reasons we have discussed many times on this board. She wanted him to bond immediately. So many bmoms don't get a chance to voice their wishes.
But yeah, I think most people who read this story will figure out the truth. This kid was totally ready to live on the streets at 12 and the fact that he took off should surprise no one.
ThreeShadows
Quid me anxia?
This is such BS. Are you kidding me? I'm sure we Americans are now using Russian children for spare body parts. This young boy was no doubt allowed to run wild on the streets in Cheboksary while his father was getting sloshed, after all that city is the home to the only beer museum in Russia. You can't take a street wise 12 y.o. and try to instill family values in a tormented, parentless child. Shame on the social workers who "facilitated" this adoption. I'm sure he will be soooo much happier living the footloose and fancy free life in his native country. I have a good idea how he came up with the $700.00 it costs to fly from Philly to Moscow while living on the streets.
I'm sure our difficult child 3 has plenty of horror stories to tell the world about us when she can't get her way. She is pretty ruthless about it.
I'm sure our difficult child 3 has plenty of horror stories to tell the world about us when she can't get her way. She is pretty ruthless about it.
It is disgusting that any country or group should use children as pawns, but it isn't a new thing and has happened across the globe for centuries.
MWM, it really isn't as easy as you make it sound to adopt a child. My friends didn't care what color or gender or health the child was, they were even okay with adopting an older child. They were turned down time and time again because she had epilepsy even though she had two DECADES of dr reports that said it was totally under control and she hadn't had a seizure in years. I know two grandparents who tried to adopt their grandchildren after the parents died in an accident. The grandfather had heart problems and they were denied. The kids were sent to foster care because the grandfather had a health issue. The gma did not, was in her mid fifties, and was told that as long as the she was married to the grandfather, the children could not be placed with them, period. It devastated them. They fought in court but could not overcome the decision that the grandfather's heart condition was too serious. Eventually the grandparents divorced to gain custody of the children after some really bad things happened to the kids while in foster homes. The grandparents didn't end their relationship, just the legal side of things and for some reason that made them more suitable and the gma got custody of the kids. It made no sense, but is not atypical for our area.
Adoption here in OK is not easy and many times very small thing that you wouldn't think were a problem ended up sending parents to private agencies or overseas for adoption. It is sad, and in many cases stupid. but it is the reality here.
MWM, it really isn't as easy as you make it sound to adopt a child. My friends didn't care what color or gender or health the child was, they were even okay with adopting an older child. They were turned down time and time again because she had epilepsy even though she had two DECADES of dr reports that said it was totally under control and she hadn't had a seizure in years. I know two grandparents who tried to adopt their grandchildren after the parents died in an accident. The grandfather had heart problems and they were denied. The kids were sent to foster care because the grandfather had a health issue. The gma did not, was in her mid fifties, and was told that as long as the she was married to the grandfather, the children could not be placed with them, period. It devastated them. They fought in court but could not overcome the decision that the grandfather's heart condition was too serious. Eventually the grandparents divorced to gain custody of the children after some really bad things happened to the kids while in foster homes. The grandparents didn't end their relationship, just the legal side of things and for some reason that made them more suitable and the gma got custody of the kids. It made no sense, but is not atypical for our area.
Adoption here in OK is not easy and many times very small thing that you wouldn't think were a problem ended up sending parents to private agencies or overseas for adoption. It is sad, and in many cases stupid. but it is the reality here.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
DDD, you are talking about a boy who had no idea what a family does, we don't know if they were good to him or not or if they even understood his challenges, and any child who lived in an orphanage for 12 years would be a probably unattached difficult child. He is in no way like our biological or infant adopted difficult children.
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ThreeShadows
Quid me anxia?
MWM, his mother died when he was 10. He wasn't in an orphanage for 12 years. He had presumably bonded with her.
Pretty big assumption. And then there's the whole question of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS)/Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE)... in which case the kid may not even have the capacity to bond.
The problem with these kinds of stories is that we will never know the REAL story.
ThreeShadows
Quid me anxia?
It is a big assumption to mention Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS)/Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE) just because the child is Russian.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
If he lived with his birthparents and t hey were good to him and loving, by age twelve he obviously wanted to stay with his own family and was probably unwilling to accept this other family as his own. Regardless of anything, he was too old to be adopted, he should have gone to grandma right away, and I don't blame him for wanting to go home. It was a screwed up adoption. He is a screwed up kid, which is expected after all that happened.
Period.
Period.
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