Advice sought

Lovelife

Member
Best of luck to you. It sounds like you are working with a great team who will advocate for what is best for this child and for those whom he impacts, human and animal.

Does his caseworker know that he has abused your dogs?

How much longer will he be in your home? Will he be gone before your leave from work runs out, and you may have to worry about him being alone with the dogs? Some workplaces do allow pets. Maybe that is an option as might be doggy day care out of the house.

I would fight like hell to make sure he retains an IEP with a primary disability of emotional disturbance, if he has ever acted out in school this should be a no brainer. If he hasn't acted out in school, he may be labeled as learning disabled or intellectually disabled, but he needs a behavior plan in any case.

You have the right to request that the school evaluate him at their expense, even if he was recently evaluated and you do not agree with the results, or think they are incomplete in some way. Just want to be sure you know this. Does he attend the public school in your area?
Yes everyone knows this. We provide weekly reports on him as well as incident reports. His behaviors have been seen by the wrap around team as well, although not as severe, mostly negative attention seeking. One member saw how he teased our dog, and another saw him put a measuring tape around his neck....seeing what the reaction would be. He did have an iep at previous school which he remained in till this summer. Mostly Occupational Therapist (OT) and PT (he gets out of school Occupational Therapist (OT) now). New school this coming fall in our town. I will not lie to them when we meet. Neither will the CM. I think she is shocked by him. We will be pushing for the right thing for him. He needs way more than the generic therapy he's already had. His own mother tried to get a referral for intake. He needs a psychiatric evaluation and intensive every day therapy. Deep down, as much as we wanted to be able to help him, we know this. So school may well be a moot point. We don't feel fair subjecting this place to him.
 

Lovelife

Member
He was obviously sexually abused at some time but often kids forget it happened. It is a defense and it goes deep into the subconscious. But even though they may forget it, as ours did, they act out sexually and/or like to get their parents into trouble by calling cps or the cops to claim THEY were sexually abused by their parents. I know foster parents who lost all their kids for long periods of time because of false abuse allegations. They can also go to jail or be forced to sign up for that abusers list. CPS is unlike our regular justice system. They assume you are guilty and act accordingly. It's the child's word against yours. Sexually abuse are hot button words. The kids know it.

That social services has seen this child fail over and over again in a family, it's kind of scary that they keep trying.

I do think Reactive Attachment Disorder (Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)) can be cured...yes cured. I've read at least one book written by a kid who had Reactive Attachment Disorder (Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)) and decided to trust his parents. But he wasn't as disturbed as our boys are although he was no fun to have at home.

I think there is a spectrum, like with most disorders. There are kids with attachment problems who don't hurt others but don't bond. And there are those who are trying to or killing animals by age 9. Those are the ones I don't think will ever be right.

Also most kids in foster care were drug/alcohol exposed in utero and that makes it even worse.

Reactive Attachment Disorder (Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)) is like antisocial personality disorder in a child. Neither treats living beings as anything more than objects for their own gain. They lack the normal human emotions and are good, remorseless con artists.
I guess after reading your post, the underlying question is, at what point is it too late to help a kiddo with some of these disorders. Where on the spectrum is there a point of no return. Who decides. Certainly not the state when they will be footing the bill (sadly they will be one way or another, either to keep the kid in treatment, or if not, in prison later)
 

Lovelife

Member
Best of luck to you. It sounds like you are working with a great team who will advocate for what is best for this child and for those whom he impacts, human and animal.

Does his caseworker know that he has abused your dogs?

How much longer will he be in your home? Will he be gone before your leave from work runs out, and you may have to worry about him being alone with the dogs? Some workplaces do allow pets. Maybe that is an option as might be doggy day care out of the house.

I would fight like hell to make sure he retains an IEP with a primary disability of emotional disturbance, if he has ever acted out in school this should be a no brainer. If he hasn't acted out in school, he may be labeled as learning disabled or intellectually disabled, but he needs a behavior plan in any case.

You have the right to request that the school evaluate him at their expense, even if he was recently evaluated and you do not agree with the results, or think they are incomplete in some way. Just want to be sure you know this. Does he attend the public school in your area?
I want to go back to work in the fall. No chance of dogs at work. He would be in school tho, and after school care if needed thru the ymca. Have you guys dealing with these kids... Seen good days, as if the kid is more normal.? Fewer manipulative behaviors, outbursts, ect. Oops spoke too soon! But anyhow..
 

BloodiedButUnbowed

Well-Known Member
Yes everyone knows this. We provide weekly reports on him as well as incident reports. His behaviors have been seen by the wrap around team as well, although not as severe, mostly negative attention seeking. One member saw how he teased our dog, and another saw him put a measuring tape around his neck....seeing what the reaction would be. He did have an iep at previous school which he remained in till this summer. Mostly Occupational Therapist (Occupational Therapist (OT)) and PT (he gets out of school Occupational Therapist (Occupational Therapist (OT)) now). New school this coming fall in our town. I will not lie to them when we meet. Neither will the CM. I think she is shocked by him. We will be pushing for the right thing for him. He needs way more than the generic therapy he's already had. His own mother tried to get a referral for intake. He needs a psychiatric evaluation and intensive every day therapy. Deep down, as much as we wanted to be able to help him, we know this. So school may well be a moot point. We don't feel fair subjecting this place to him.

Well, legally, he has to attend school. I am a special education teacher who manages a caseload, in addition to classroom teaching, so I can speak to this somewhat.

Basically with a child like this, you want to document to the school that you are aware of his behavior, that he has predatory tendencies, and you want his IEP to include all necessary supports to allow him to learn, and also protect others from possible harm by him. If he does something to another child, and the parents decide to sue the school and/or your family, you can then document that you told the school to keep other kids away from him. monitor him every minute, etc, and if the school did not do this then it's on them.

I am a bit confused, is he in the process of being placed in a residential facility or is he going to be in your home indefinitely?
 

BloodiedButUnbowed

Well-Known Member
I guess after reading your post, the underlying question is, at what point is it too late to help a kiddo with some of these disorders. Where on the spectrum is there a point of no return. Who decides. Certainly not the state when they will be footing the bill (sadly they will be one way or another, either to keep the kid in treatment, or if not, in prison later)

The child's brain has been permanently damaged by the abuse he suffered. Arguably, perhaps he can be rehabilitated to an extent - maybe a considerably extent. Hopefully so, but the main thing is, are you willing to sacrifice your peace of mind, the health of your marriage, the safety of your pets, your reputation, your financial health - if he does something horrific to get you sued - to offer this boy whatever modicum of 'help' you can?

The nature of his brain damage is that he is unable to function normally in a family setting. At this point he needs institutionalization to keep him and others safe. You can help him by continuing to remain a presence in his life, but from a safe distance.

Just my opinion......most authorities would say that a kid's behavior is pretty well hard wired after the age of 3 or so.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
once a childis seriously acting out sexually, he eill probably do it at school too. Although our kid had probably scared his victims into silence as he was quite good at it, he admitted in residential that he had been perping since age five. that meant five ptlrevious foster parents did not know he was doing it.

His family before us ran a daycare and he used to "help." Your boy is a danger to the general population at school, especially to younger kids.
 

BloodiedButUnbowed

Well-Known Member
I think, with a child like yours, you will be called frequently to pick him up from school due to his behaviors. You can also anticipate he will be thrown out of the after school program because they will not be able to handle him, or he will act out against other children so that they are not safe.

SomewhereOutThere has detailed how this situation played out for her, and she has said - if I remember correctly - your foster son seems worse.

Do not trust that school and after care will keep him out of your home and away from your animals. They will not be able to handle him, they will kick him out, and send him....home to you, where you will have to somehow contain his psychotic impulses.

Can you get him out of your home now before tragedy strikes?
 

ksm

Well-Known Member
Can you some how stay involved in his life without adoption? Like send a weekly letter? Token gifts in birthdays and Christmas? Occasional phone calls?

If he does go to an institution or a residential facility, would you be allowed to gave some contact? More for his benefit than yours...every one else has disappeared from his life...

So sad for all involved.

KSM
 

GoingNorth

Crazy Cat Lady
It would be best for the boy if she has no further contact with him, especially as she's been one of his targets.

If she moves, she should make sure he does not get hold of her new address and changing her phone number once he is properly institutionalized is a good idea as well.

Continuing contact will only provide fodder for whatever fantasies he might have about her, and interfere with his, albeit slim, chances of healing.
 

Lovelife

Member
Well, legally, he has to attend school. I am a special education teacher who manages a caseload, in addition to classroom teaching, so I can speak to this somewhat.

Basically with a child like this, you want to document to the school that you are aware of his behavior, that he has predatory tendencies, and you want his IEP to include all necessary supports to allow him to learn, and also protect others from possible harm by him. If he does something to another child, and the parents decide to sue the school and/or your family, you can then document that you told the school to keep other kids away from him. monitor him every minute, etc, and if the school did not do this then it's on them.

I am a bit confused, is he in the process of being placed in a residential facility or is he going to be in your home indefinitely?

Yes, we would set up a meeting with the school to discuss every thing you mention above. Right now, I feel worried about placing him in our school and actually guilty... why should they have to be responsible for us throwing a child like this at them. He was not, however, extreme in his behaviors at his previous school. Like I said, his efforts are focused towards the home environment.... which makes it much more likely Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) and a Conduct Disorder.
We are a pre-adopt placement. We are in process of trying to determine what help this kiddo needs, and honestly we know the answer.
 

Lovelife

Member
I think, with a child like yours, you will be called frequently to pick him up from school due to his behaviors. You can also anticipate he will be thrown out of the after school program because they will not be able to handle him, or he will act out against other children so that they are not safe.

SomewhereOutThere has detailed how this situation played out for her, and she has said - if I remember correctly - your foster son seems worse.

Do not trust that school and after care will keep him out of your home and away from your animals. They will not be able to handle him, they will kick him out, and send him....home to you, where you will have to somehow contain his psychotic impulses.

Can you get him out of your home now before tragedy strikes?

Yes, we are certainly in tune to the fact that we may get called. However, his efforts thus far, which are common for attachment disorder kids, focused on us and the home (as has been the case in the previous placement). We have not been called to pick him up from a day camp he was involved in. Granted, it was highly structured, yet they may not have known what to do if his behaviors were mildly aggressive.
 

BloodiedButUnbowed

Well-Known Member
It's a good sign that he has been able to manage in his day camp. That is great to hear. You may want to ask them what their recommendation is as far as structure that will benefit him at school. It may prove really helpful to them.

I might also suggest that you request a one on one meeting with the Special Education director of his new school so you can be sure they understand the unique situation. They will be obliged to honor his existing IEP until they develop his new one, with your help. Are you the legal guardian?
 

Lovelife

Member
It's a good sign that he has been able to manage in his day camp. That is great to hear. You may want to ask them what their recommendation is as far as structure that will benefit him at school. It may prove really helpful to them.

I might also suggest that you request a one on one meeting with the Special Education director of his new school so you can be sure they understand the unique situation. They will be obliged to honor his existing IEP until they develop his new one, with your help. Are you the legal guardian?

I don't think they hold him as accountable, so it's good and bad (being mean, etc.)
We do have a meeting scheduled, but will decide before then what will be best for this kid. Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, we are legal guardians/pre-adopt.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
From my own experience, ours didn't act out of school, not to the teachers. But he did sexually abuse at least one disabled young man in the special education class. He pretended to befriend this kid.

kids like this are a danger to society and are very sneaky about it. He has made you think he's safe except at home. That is most likelu untrue. He may not act outat school, but that doesn't mean he isnt being dangerous.
 

BloodiedButUnbowed

Well-Known Member
Please remember that from an IEP perspective, placement is a team decision. The school has to agree with your proposal. If, as it seems from what you've said, you are advocating for a residential placement or at minimum, a private therapeutic school in line with his needs, if his current IEP does not already state this, they will likely fight you tooth and nail as this is a significant expense that the school district must absorb if it's in an IEP. Might be better to see if the state can get him placed and then enroll him in school at the placement site.
 

Ironbutterfly

If focused on a single leaf you won't see the tree
I want to go back to work in the fall. No chance of dogs at work. He would be in school tho, and after school care if needed thru the ymca. Have you guys dealing with these kids... Seen good days, as if the kid is more normal.? Fewer manipulative behaviors, outbursts, ect. Oops spoke too soon! But anyhow..

I honestly don't see him lasting very long in an after school care, especially YMCA. I went through preschools like crazy with my son. Finally had him evaluated and found out then he was disabled in many ways. Even with my son, when he was little, I had baby sitters quit and finally had to have a sitter who only watched him. That worked. But I had two different sitters, one for my other kids and one for him. It was hard, especially after working all day. After work I would have to take him to a park so he could burn off his energy- he had ADHD and was on Ritalin during school hours. Hec- the school had to hire extra person just for him. One time, the principal was actually chasing him outside around the school. I had to go pick him up.
 

Lovelife

Member
I honestly don't see him lasting very long in an after school care, especially YMCA. I went through preschools like crazy with my son. Finally had him evaluated and found out then he was disabled in many ways. Even with my son, when he was little, I had baby sitters quit and finally had to have a sitter who only watched him. That worked. But I had two different sitters, one for my other kids and one for him. It was hard, especially after working all day. After work I would have to take him to a park so he could burn off his energy- he had ADHD and was on Ritalin during school hours. Hec- the school had to hire extra person just for him. One time, the principal was actually chasing him outside around the school. I had to go pick him up.

Yes, I completely understand where you are coming from. Your son sounds a lot like this young man. Disrupted out of Day Cares, pre-schools, therapies, etc. ADHD is always an interesting "diagnosis". I'm sure this kiddo has had it diagnosed as well. I believe it's often over-diagnosed, especially in foster care.
This stuff is way beyond any ADHD, although who knows... he could have that hidden in there as well.
 

GoingNorth

Crazy Cat Lady
ADHD is a "go to" diagnosis, especially in boys.

I'm not a boy, but when I went back to seeking help from psychiatrists, I was initially diagnosed as having ADHD and severe depression.

It wasn't until I got involved in the family study that I was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and Bipolar. Before that, an attempt had been made to treat me with stims, strattera, and several antidepressants.

I was one hypomanic hot mess by the time I was correctly diagnosed and place on the proper medications. I also have permanent damage from being hypomanic/manic for so many years.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Gn, I agree with you about ADHD and how all different children se to get that label first.

From this kids behavior, he is far past ADHD or autism. He may have both, but his other issies are so dangerous and dire that they sort of make it hard for him to get anything else treated...
 

GoingNorth

Crazy Cat Lady
Plus, they don't have a hope of (possibly) being able to treat the ADHD, or manage the autism, until the get the other issues under some sort of control.

I'm able to benefit from ADs now, but I have to take small doses of ONE drug and I have to take it in the early AM because it ramps me up for a couple of hours after taking it.

I cannot tolerate ADHD medications ( do have ADHD) as they aggravate both the Bipolar and the anxiety. I have the sort of ADHD that effects executive function. Mine has always been lousy and hasn't improved with age. I have all sorts of "tricks" I've come up with to compensate, but literally, if it isn't written down, or entered into my reminder function on my computer, it doesn't exist.

My AP, Latuda, also has to be taken in the AM as it also ramps me up.

Add in all the sedating stuff I also take, and sometimes I feel like ill-prepared chemical soup.
 
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