And the world begins to crumble...

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by Alisonlg, Oct 15, 2007.

  1. Alisonlg

    Alisonlg New Member

    It's been a while since I've ventured over here. Life was relatively stable with M for a while and C was getting a bit more managable and both started seeing a therapist they like. School started and M was doing really well at school, but occassionally having a difficult time with the "it's so hard to be good at school that I can't do it anymore at home." Then over the past month, he started saying certain homework was too hard (even though it was definitely easy for him and I was willing to help him) and he would meltdown over it. This started increasing in frequency over the past few weeks and then this past Friday a hint of school refusal reared it's ugly head, but he decided to go just before the bus arrived. Somewhere in there we also had a physical rage where he was punching me and kicking me. Now today (Monday) he refused to go to school altogether, so he's "grounded" (no tv, no video games, no friends, no computer, and he's *supposed* to stay in his room for the duration of the school day). Since 7:30 am it's been a non-stop battle and by now my brain is a jumbled mush (I'm sure it's overrun with anxiety by now).

    We've had at least 4 episodes of punching/biting/kicking me and occasionally charging/hitting his 3 1/2 yr old brother. And I've got 4 more hours until husband comes home to help.

    I just look at things and wonder how did we go *so* quickly from STABLE to THIS (essentially where we were pre-medications) in so little time. And all over again I feel like saying, "What on earth do I do?" I feel lost, spacey, and overwhelmed.

    And on a side note, why does M always pick the days I have THE MOST THINGS TO GET DONE to pull this :censored2:? I have soooooo much to do (like write a teleclass for a call I'm supposed to run at 8 pm tonight!!!!) and now NONE of it has gotten done! AGH! Talk about add to the stress. Ugh.
  2. busywend

    busywend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    You must not accept violence. Explain to him that it is abuse and it is illegal. I know he is 8, but it is the truth. He needs to know this now.

    The thing that saved me from allowing abuse was knowing that someday my difficult child would realize what she had done and I knew I did not want her living with the knowledge that she had abused her own mother.
  3. Alisonlg

    Alisonlg New Member

    So what's my option? Call 911 every time?
  4. smallworld

    smallworld Moderator

    I look at this slightly differently. While I don't think it's ever all right to tolerate violence, I look at it as a symptom of something that's not right with the medications, school environment, brain chemistry, whatever. Alison, where are you with treatment? Does M have a therapist and psychiatrist? If so, have you contacted them about today's school refusal and violence? The medical professionals need to help you figure out the next step.

    Hugs to you.
  5. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I would look at the Celexa. SSRIs and all antidepressant can and often do cause raging and worsened behavior in any child who may have an undiagnosed mood disorder. My son went ballistic on Prozac, and he doesnt even HAVE a mood disorder, and my teen daughter pulled a knife on herself while on Prozac. Celexa and Prozac are cousins. Like smallmom, especially with preteen and under kids, I see it as a mental illness type of behavior and would go to a hospital rather than call the police. Why give a record to a mentally ill child? in my opinion there's no point.
  6. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Hi, so sorry, Alison. I know how you feel.
    We had the same thing with-my son. He's going to be 11 in Dec. and he's a lot better.
    We never did any medications except for Adderal. Is he taking anything for his ADHD? I know a lot of people say to do the mood stabilizers or serotonin uptakes first, but we preferred to work with-the ADHD first and we got lucky, plus, we've worked very hard.

    Now that I look back on it, I found that my son was picking up on my anxiety, because I was rushing around, yelling from room to room, "Everybody ready?" or "Got your shoes?" and while that's no big deal to me, it was and is a big deal to a difficult child. I had to pad every single thing with-at least 1/2 hr to an hr extra in regard to time. I resented it, but then when it came right down to it, I was wasting at least that much time with-his meltdowns and stubbornness.
    I'm thinking your difficult child is picking up on your stress. You asked, "Why is it always the days when I have the most things to get done?" and it's no coincidence.
    Don't take that as a slam. It's simply a suggestion, but I've noticed that our G'sfg overreact to absolutely everything.

    In regard to his violence, I used to literally drag my difficult child out the door. I usually chose the front door, for various reasons. I told him to run around outside. He would try to fight me, but I was usually able to get him over the threshhold. This helped him as well as me, because his rages would often put me over the top and I didn't want to hurt him (overdoing it with-yelling, spanking etc.) We have nearly 4 acres, and I hoped he wouldn't choose to leave our 4 acres and whine at a neighbor's house (how humiliating--"my mom kicked me out!" LOL) but it never happened. He always stayed in the yard and I could see him from the windows. Now that I know the neighbors better, they would have all done the same thing with-their kids, LOL!

    It sometimes allowed difficult child to calm down, but my problem was I always expected to speak with-him, either to get an apology or just to tell him to go to his room when he came back in.
    Big mistake. It takes a long, long, time for a difficult child to truly calm down (sometimes overnight) so just because they aren't kicking and screaming at that moment doesn't mean they won't start up again in an instant. He would take ANY word from me as a signal to start fighting again.
    Someone here (I have to dig up the note--it's a good one) said that one reason so many kids with-ADHD have ODD is because they crave the stimulation of arguing. Now, I'd want to think that it's much more enjoyable to be stimulated while rooting for my team at a game, or jogging around the block, but G'sfg use the easy, base instinct of anger.

    You said, or implied, you're having a hard time keeping him in Time Out, which is his room. I had the exact same problem. One thing we did was reverse the lock on his door so we could lock him in. It saved our sanity.
    Eventually, he broke it, but hey, you can always buy another one! At least he didn't break the hinges.
    I had to race him to his room by telling him that the first person up there got their pick of anything on the floor--forever. Since the room is usually junked up, it's easy pickings. (That was the child psychiatric's idea.)
    Then, once he's in there (the key is to let him rush past you at the last second, and he'll give you one, good, hard, last shove before he goes in) then you step back quickly and lock the door.
    Sneaky, but effective.
    Expect him to try to kick down the door.
    Put in earplugs and get some work done. (Easier said than done!)

    I would not call 911 on an 8-yr-old unless he had a weapon or had lived through some trauma where he had witnessed horrific violence and knew how to carry it through. IOW, most 8-yr-olds are not as adept at true violence as we would believe. Now, if you've got friends in the police dept., you can set up something where you call them to come over in uniform, but chances are, he won't be raging at the time. It's hard to make your friends' schedules mesh with-a tantrum!

    Also, since he's saying "it's so hard to be good at school, it's hard to do it at home," you may want to reward him in some way each day he comes home calmly. Now, he may not remain calm all evening, but you can extend it day by day, for a few min. at a time. For example, "You've been really good at home, not annoying your brother, and not following me around. You can watch an extra 15 min. of TV right now." (or have a snack, etc.). Then, the next day, set a timer and tell him that if he can be good for an extra 15 min., he'll get an even bigger reward.
    I used to worry that it was too much like training a seal, and it wouldn't help him develop a conscience, but most of these kids have delayed development so it's going to be a long way off. You have to work with-results, and then work backward as to the effects and "Why" of it all.
    My son likes Reese's peanut butter cups (yes, he will take that over a $20 bill. LOL!) I also like to give him a break when he gets home, because if we go straight into homework, he really will have a meltdown. So maybe 1/2 hr of a calm, funny cartoon (we have a huge collection of Bugs Bunny, as opposed to Transformers or Yu-Gi-Oh or some inanely violent garbage), and then help him transistion to homework or some small task.

    It means when you are home together, you will be lucky to get working periods of more than 15-min-1/2 hr, but it will lengthen over time. Also, consider that they will be calm periods, which helps considerably.

    I don't know why he started his downward spiral but all you can do is not spiral down with-him.

    Good luck!
  7. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I'm right there with you. I wonder how it can happen so fast too but for my difficult child as I look back at it I have seen signs that he was winding up the last couple of weeks. Offering gentle hugs and a shoulder to lean on.
  8. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I know how hard it is. My son was a similar problem, at times.

    In many states it is illegal to lock a child out oof the home. At best it can get you a call from Childrens Services (and an investigation or loss of custody in some areas). Be very careful with this one.


  9. guest3

    guest3 Guest

    Wow I am saying Ditto alot 2night I think it's a seasonal thing or perhaps a moon thing is it full I have not looked?

    I know difficult child II is headed down hill and fast, I wish difficult child's came with pause buttons, that would be such a blessing.
  10. totoro

    totoro Mom? What's a GFG?

    Oh Alison I am so sorry... I feel for you. Just when you get comfy and think something is going right... the feces hits the fan...
    K has been good for a period and then things will fall apart. It is so heartbreaking because you know they don't want this.

    I try real hard also to remember that K is unstable when she is violent. I do not tolerate it with N. But I try to remain strict but keep in the back of my mind that she is sick.

    I hope things get better. We missed you though!!! Hugs
  11. busywend

    busywend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I did not mean for you to call 911. But, I do think it is important to for him to realize what it is - abuse. I know he can not help it as he is not stable. But, it is an informed difficult child that can choose to react differently. Yes, they can choose to do something other than hit you. Perhaps he needs a punching bag?
  12. prayerful

    prayerful New Member

    i am new to this site and it took lots of prayer for me i am nomarally a private person . That has all changed since my son was diagnosis in 2001 with adhd and now i am going through the early stages of odd&cd it's combined he is always in trouble in school and he blames everyone i used to spank him you know spare the rod and spoil the child that 's how i grew up .i love my son and only want the best for him but i am at the end of my rope what do i do? where do i go i beg and beg and beg for help and it is not easy i am not giving up on him it's i have given up on my self this is so hard for me i don't sleep i have gained weight 150 pounds looks bad on me i am only 5'1!. All the attention is on him and i have a 1 year old that just is used to him having the attention already she just gets her toys and play and knows that he is going to act out if she tries for any kind of contact or attention from me or her dad and it's not fair to her! when he is in school i have peace because he not her with me , but their for 8 hours making some one else want to pull there hair out! i am now going through this fight with the school about the 504 plan iep all the above that can help my child ! his teachers are suppose to send me home a daily report on him and they don't i have to pray every day before i go to the school they feel as though it's too much work one of them told me now what kind of :censored2: is that? !. if any one has any advice please feel free to give it i need all the help i can get it's hard every day is a struggle it has caused me to become depressed because i hate to see my son go through this and i am fighting with all that is within me . He is very smart he makes A's & B's and is on the prinicpal list has been since he started school , but this odd and cd has taken over now . his adhd is in control as far as i see but what do i know i am so lost i don't know where to begin have been going around in circles since 2001 still trying to figure all this out ! i get a phone call every day about him the only time the school don't call is when they don't have school or the weekends. he started out taking (addrerall xr, 30mg ) now he takes( meadate cd,40 mg) the higest doses for his age 11 and he get to school at 7:00 and the school either call me or his dad at 8:00 before 8:30 every morning ! when i hear the phone ring and look at my caller id box and see it's the school my heart drops . this is really hurting me i have chest pains and bad headaches !but the bible says that god won't put on you more than you can bare and i have been through alot the last couple years so i must me stronger than i think iam .
  13. SearchingForRainbows

    SearchingForRainbows Active Member


    I'm so sorry difficult child is being such a PITA!!! Do you think he needs an adjustment to his medications? in my humble opinion, I think you should call his psychiatrist. My difficult children can get violent too. You shouldn't have to live with violence in your own home!!!

    As far as difficult child refusing to go to school yesterday, in my humble opinion, I would do whatever it takes to get him to school. Of course I don't know if you have any support in the mornings. However, if husband is around, I would have him help you get difficult child to school. If difficult child is on an IEP, I don't think they can make you pick him up for his behavior.

    By letting difficult child stay home, he is not only making your day unbearable, but also, he in a sense, has gotten what he wants - NO SCHOOL - even if it means he has to stay in his room for the day.

    As he is unstable, you're just setting yourself up for a day of He77 by having to make him comply with the consequences of his actions - Not going to school = No tv, no video games, no friends, no computer. Of course these consequences are totally reasonable, but to an unstable difficult child, they're just like throwing more fuel on the fire.

    I hope what I've said makes some sense. I hope today is a better day for you!!! Sending cyber hugs, WFEN
  14. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Hi Prayerful, I would take him to the dr--or is that how you found out he's ADHD? and at least get him on a stimulant.
    You've come to the right place.

    Susie, I didn't know there were laws about locking kids out. I've seriously never heard of it.
    Are there any laws about locking MOM out of the house? Because that's actually where I got the idea--when he did it to me first! LOL.
  15. Star*

    Star* call 911

    Hi there,

    Well I think everyone has had some good points. And what are you supposed to do? Call 911 every time? Do you think that would help? More than likely they will arrest him for assault and he could go to family court or arbitration, be court mandated to take some anger management classes, be court mandated to attend psychologist appointments and at the least would get an idea of what is to come if he continues to solve every issue that doesn't go his way with violence.

    After dealing with this on an older child level, I can tell you that yes, I call the police, yes I have him placed outside the home, yes I am sending a very CLEAR message that hitting and beating and abuse is not allowed, not at 8 not ever. It's your choice at this point not his. How do you think the 3 1/2 year old is going to be in the future if his own brother is coming at him in a rage? (just asking not judging) but something to think about.

    If he has another rage and you don't want to call the police here is what I would do. Take him to the nearest ER and tell them he is a danger to himself and others. THAT is the truth. Yes, I know it's hard, it stinks and you just want him to take a pill and be better. That isn't reality. Making sure that he understands at 8 years old that hitting is wrong, and getting a team of psychiatrists to evaluate his medications while he maybe has a short stay in a psychiatric wing at the hospital, gives you time to regroup, and gives the 3 1/2 year old a break from these episodes.

    Listen, none of us want to be here, but we are. It's our blessing to have a difficult child good or bad behavior. For me, it's lead me to places and to meet people that I never would have met otherwise. It's given me an opportunity to come here and tell others my story, my son's story and hopefully, maybe, something we had to endure will help someone else. My son is now 17. He's been in more out of home placements than I care to count, he's been on 64 medicines, he's had numerous diagnoses from countless psychiatrists, psychologists and I have nearly lost my life, my home, and my fiance~ due to the stress. I love my son. When the world doesn't and when no one else does - I DO. I know you do too. You love both or your kids right? Right.

    I took my son the first time to the hospital ER at age 7 because he and another little boy were working in our den on a bicycle and the little neighbor boy stuck his head through the dog door twice asking if he could come in too and help. My son became so enraged he grabbed an antique wheat scythe (sickle) off the wall and went down the street screaming "I'll kill you." I caught him and got him to let go of the sickle, went back to the house, grabbed my purse and shoved him in the car while he was still raging. We went to the ER where after sitting and being whispered about from the nurses for 3 hours he FINALLY went ballistic and tore the waiting room apart, ripped plants out of the planters, tore pictures off the wall, kicked the glass, screamed and carried on so badly they finally FINALLY saw what I saw. All of the rage started because I had NO money for the snack machine. They eventually handcuffed him to the bed and 11 hours later we were at the state hospital for disturbed children. He stayed 6 weeks, got on medications, and came home.

    In our town getting a diagnosis from the state hospital gave us the start we needed to gain access to other services wherein we got funding to seek outside help, get a shadow for school, get a big brother, a psychologist, and out of home placements when we needed them. THERE IS (in my humble opinion) no home that can provide the structure and stick to a consequence like an Residential Treatment Center (RTC). I don't care how hard you try or how hard you are - a few here have tried, but I've yet to hear one say that it worked with every kid.

    And my the one is throwing stones at you or your kid. We are ALL here because our children have emotional disabilities. I think I am emotionally disabled anymore. Nope I'm sure of it.

    Hang in there, get a rhino skin suit.....and get educated about what you CAN do. Get a plan of action together and journal the rages, the foods he's eating, the medications he is taking....or not taking and his behavior at school. ANd by the by....he's not kidding when he says he can only hold it together in one place at a time. Mine could either be an angel at home (mostly) and hell to pay at school or vise-versa. For me financially it was easier to have the good behaved child at school (No leaving work or having stressy phone calls about how wonderful my child wasn't) so I went to the school and asked that there be an IEP written for him where he had NO homework. Ever. He would have a shadow help him in class get it done, and no abnormal meltdowns at home about busting pencils or erasing paper until there were holes in it or throwing books or that 4ton bookbag. We kept a set of books at school and at home and when that didn't work? We went to NO homework. You just have to know what sets him off and work with the school about it.

    We're all here for ya.....dont be a stranger...or at the least don't be stranger than me (I'd hate to loose my crown)

  16. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    :frown: I know how hard things have been for you. And I am so sorry they are bad again. I have found the same pattern with my son. It is so on and off again, it makes me crazy. I do know for my difficult child, it is season related. Spring and fall are worse with BiPolar (BP), SAD, and MDD patients.

    Hang in there, call the psychiatrist, and see if he can XR a PRN.
    We have all been in your shoes..........
    I pray you can at least find peace in the midst of this storm. That is all we can ever hope for with these kids.