Another point of view on Shunning. And shunning vs. no contact

[Copabanana]

When I was posting on FOO a lot until several months ago, I found that I carried around a great deal of anger towards my mother. I came to see that I had lived a life almost neutering and defanging myself, to make myself less dangerous.

I knew I had learned to do that as a child, where fighting back, fighting for myself would have been intolerable. I loved my parents, and hated them. But I needed them. I decided to make myself less dangerous and powerful...to stay within the family I needed.

I am a passive and almost compliant person. A follower not a leader. I believe these personality characteristics are the result of these early decisions of a child to make herself into somebody her family could tolerate and therefore keep.

It was only until I was about 30, that I could break away from my family. But even then I could not do it alone.

I am coming to believe that the response of my family was to shun me. They would only accept me if I continued to be within the mold that I had formed under their influence.

It is hard for me to work through whether I really left them or they left me. Or if the condition of belonging was to tolerate anything they did (to me or around me). And if I did not, I did not belong. I am coming to believe it is that.

So how does that fit with Emma Solkowitz and Camille Paglia? I am not sure. Let me see if I can figure it out.

I believe I did construct a life and I did make a self. An autonomous personality. I continue to work on it. At a young age I decided to divest myself of my "bad memories" and make an identity well apart from it.

As Camille Paglia notes I learned how to defend myself some, I built upon my talents, I took risks, I found the joy I could. I learned.

I think I became somebody who has had a relatively full life. I see myself as somebody who is stronger and more complete than is the rest of my family. I see myself as having to the extent that I am able empowered myself, as Paglia describes

The confusion about shunning, who does it and why it happens. Did I do It? Am I doing it with my son, when I do not want to talk to him, when he is aggressive towards me? The relationship between no contact and shunning are interesting to me because of their subtle differences.

To shun is an aggressive and deliberate act--to hurt somebody.

To go no contact is a self-protective act, to protect oneself.

I guess I am saying that it is not necessarily easy to know which it is. Because sometimes people, like me, do not necessarily understand or want to accept their motives. Everything has two sides to it. And everybody has a bit of perpetrator and victim within them. What they seem on the outside, may be deeply hidden and defended against. The most docile and sweetest maiden may conceal a stiletto. The aggressive brute may conceal victimization. Motives and true feelings are not always what they seem. Even to ourselves.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

Serenity, who wrote the article that you quote?

Thank you,

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

I think for my daughter its control....

It's control with my FOO too.

When my sister shunned my mother and I as my mother died I thought it was control. And vengeance.

But a lot of me thinks it was because she was afraid.

What she said was that she had to protect herself against my mother and I because we were toxic to her. That we would poison her and make her sick or weak or kill her. That we were hurtful to her.

(I do not know how anybody could do anything more hurtful than what she did to my dying mother.)

But I think she just could not take it. She could not tolerate the lack of control over my mother or over me. She could not tolerate the lack of control over life itself. She was losing her mother. For infinity. She preferred to shun my mother rather than tolerate the helplessness of losing her. She took control by shunning somebody who was dying. So she would not have to lose her. She was afraid. She shunned us to be proactive, to be in control over something she could not control

She blamed me. For all of it. Everything. That was easier. Or all she felt capable of. And saw it as strength. She saw it as "no contact." But I do not believe that no contact involves the kind of hurt she inflicted.

All of these things are so complicated. To feel strong we do weak, treacherous things. To absolve ourselves of responsibility, we blame others. Hold others accountable for what we cannot be or choose not to be. All of us. At one point or another.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

I have come to believe that shunning is not a one-time thing that happens once and you just move on. I did at one time think that this is what it was, and expected to be able to move on with my life.

In light of Camille Paglia's words, who while speaking of something else, addressed the idea of "moving on," "not evolving" with respect to being a victim/survivor of date rape.

There is an intersection when a sense one that has been harmed by another, or others, becomes a way of living. The term is "secondary gain" when something difficult or noxious comes to provide a win to the person who is suffering, complaining of suffering, or accusing another of hurting them. "A win" that comes from feeling and thinking of oneself as a victim of somebody else.

The thing is that the win itself, that comes from portraying oneself as a victim, can be quite aggressor and hurtful in intention and in effect. Paglia talks about how it hurts the victim/survivor. By reinforcing their victimization and labeling them as such far longer than is necessary. Confining them to that role. Winning by losing.

Some think the survivor uses an identity as a victim to hurt others. As a vendetta. At Emma's graduation the President of Columbia University would not shake her hand. The young man who Emma denounced as a rapist feels that his own life has been destroyed by her. He has alleged that she is behaving vengefully towards him because she wanted an exclusive relationship. Of course, who can know if this is true or self-serving.

I am back here to my sister and my mother. My sister believed she was the victim. I believe she did a very hurtful thing when she shunned my dying mother.

However, after 15 years of disconnection and missing out on every conceivable form of familial association, love, support, good times and bad times and all that those teach us about how to grow as a human being, I now feel differently.

I lived my life like this. Alone. I raised a child alone. Before I adopted my son I was completely alone. I thought I chose it. I no longer believe I did. That makes me very sad.

Shunning is a silent and insidious form of psychological torture. It is nearly impossible to describe its effects unless you have felt it yourself. It eats away at your insides in a way that can be invisible even to oneself.(This is what to me vindictive "no contact" is...no contact done to punish. I am well aware of this.

This is what your sister does Serenity. When she stalks you here. She is consumed by you. She seems to want to continue hurting you. When you were not destroyed when she shunned you, and seemed rather relieved, she came to stalk you. She seems obsessed with the idea that you hurt her. Just like my sister feels about me and my mother. She does not seem to accept her own destructive acts and intentions. But she ascribes her own aggressive intent to others. Namely you. And when she feels angry or empty out of control, she blames you as having caused it.

If it were truly no contact, the person doing it would move on with his/her life and not think about us. In my case, it has been ANYTHING but that. My FOO stalker is MORE than just in my face...needs to know what I do at all times, it seems. My own private thoughts here have been obsessively read).

Yes.

I am thinking here about wanting somebody in your life who you feel has hurt you, to suffer. Wanting vengeance and being sick with rage when you, yourself suffer, and the hated other does not.

Especially when you have love for that person and would long for somebody with whom to talk about your life, to understand and to remember. And there is nobody. The only person who could be that shuns you.

I have wanted my sister to suffer. I have wanted her investments to go down in value. I have not wanted her children to suffer but if I am really honest, there have been times when I wish my sister would know what it feels like to be me. I will admit it.

It is hard when somebody treats you with meanness, has invalidated you, and damaged your interests, disrespected you and your mate, and there is no consequence. That you are the only one who seems to suffer. It is hard and painful.

You know that saying: Back to you. I recognize that all of that wishing, really comes back to me. Whose investments go down in value? Mine. Who is out of control with money? Me. Whose child is suffering? My own.

I seek understanding and acceptance of my life and myself. It is hard, because there has been so little family for 50 years or more. I still am wondering if it is my fault.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

Copa, I agree with you. Although I can't say she wasn't raped, as nobody knows either way (he said/she said), what is the point of bringing this into the media and limelight? in my opinion this was something she better could have handled in private therapy. Whether or not she was a victim, she did not make her point...that is, show anyone women are strong.

Although I have had bad feelings on and off about FOO, it has never been my entire life. Same with you and everyone here. We did not parade it in front of strangers. Few ever knew about my past. I rarely told acquaintances about my mother, outside of therapy, and most did not know I even had siblings. I am not patting myself on the back. I did suffer from my FOO, but it was my pain...and here nobody knows who they are. It is wrong to make a public example out of somebody else or to force your problems on anybody else.

There are appropriate places to talk about being harmed, but the public and media is not those places. Sounds as if she just wanted some attention. And that's sad.

 

[BusynMember]

I lived my life like this. Alone. I raised a child alone. Before I adopted my son I was completely alone. I thought I chose it. I no longer believe I did. That makes me very sad.

I'm sorry, Copa. This hurts my heart. I can not imagine the loneliness of raising a child alone or choosing to be alone. I am glad that is no longer the case.

 

[BusynMember]

Especially when you have love for that person and would long for somebody with whom to talk about your life, to understand and to remember. And there is nobody. The only person who could be that shuns you.

I don't want my sister to suffer. I just want her to leave me alone and get me out of her head. She has contacted some cousins that she never knew before (nor me) and I hope that takes her mind off of me. As long as she leaves me alone, I wish her, nor anyone else in the entire world, any harm.

I love the song "Let There Be Peace on Earth." Sometimes I listen to it on YouTube, the many versions. "Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me."

In my life, there is nobody to fight with or try to figure out. I don't want to talk with anyone from FOO about FOO. It would do no good and I don't want to focus on that anymore. I get it now and that's that. The hurt is gone. They are gone. But I wish them no harm.

I think of all the tears and anger and hurt with FOO. Whose fault was it? All of ours. I think about my family of choice and chosen friends. There are very few tears and hubby and I rarely have arguments and we apologize and make up when it happens (making up is fun ). My life is quiet, void of what I lived with my FOO. So why would I want to revisit them when I am happy now? I don't miss them, but still, I say it again, I wish them no harm. I don't know what they are doing now and don't want to know, but, as I do all people, I hope things are coming together for them...peace on earth.

 

[BusynMember]

This is what your sister does Serenity. When she stalks you here. She is consumed by you. She seems to want to continue hurting you. When you were not destroyed when she shunned you, and seemed rather relieved, she came to stalk you. She seems obsessed with the idea that you hurt her. Just like my sister feels about me and my mother. She does not seem to accept her own destructive acts and intentions. But she ascribes her own aggressive intent to others. Namely you. And when she feels angry or empty out of control, she blames you as having caused it.

If this is still true, and I'm sure it was true once, it is her problem, not mine. I no longer care what she thinks. When I was talking to her, over a year ago, she certainly was a mess, but she caused it, not me. I was trying to help her make better choices and we all know how that turns out, especially those who have tried it. They get angry, knowing you are right but needing to say you are wrong, and turn on you. I hope she is no longer with abusive boyfriend, but if she is, it is her fault if he makes her suffer, as she knew he would continue to do.

 

[Copabanana]

Serenity, I have not read your posts yet. But what are you doing up? It is late your way. Go to bed. I will read now.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

In my life, there is nobody to fight with or try to figure out. I don't want to talk with anyone from FOO about FOO. It would do no good and I don't want to focus on that anymore. I get it now and that's that. The hurt is gone.

I am getting it, Serenity. I think. It is your past. A painful past. You have left it behind. There is nothing more you need to understand. You have let it go and embraced your life that you have made. I hope I get there.

I think I have taken back a lot of power with my sister, at least the person who is inside of my head. The pain has diminished about my Mother but it still rears its head.

I have not been able to move on. Not really. I am not certain why.

Sometimes I think it is about my son. Other times I think it is about my mother. Other times I think it is just me: That I have not worked through the sense of being undeserving of happiness, security or love. I am sad for myself.

I am glad you are here, Serenity. But I hope you went to bed.

COPA

 

[New Leaf]

Especially when you have love for that person and would long for somebody with whom to talk about your life, to understand and to remember. And there is nobody. The only person who could be that shuns you.

I am sorry for this for you Copa, it is a hard thing. I think for my siblings, when Moms time comes, we probably will not get together much. It is strange, we were not close as some family's are. I suppose it may be that we are all so different.

I have wanted my sister to suffer. I have wanted her investments to go down in value. I have not wanted her children to suffer but if I am really honest, there have been times when I wish my sister would know what it feels like to be me. I will admit it.

We all have times when thoughts go dark. The difference being, some people actually act on those thoughts.
I think when one wishes another to feel what it is to be them, it is a desire for empathy and understanding.

It is hard when somebody treats you with meanness, has invalidated you, and damaged your interests, disrespected you and your mate, and there is no consequence. That you are the only one who seems to suffer. It is hard and painful.

I agree. Even moreso a family member. I am sorry Copa.

You know that saying: Back to you. I recognize that all of that wishing, really comes back to me. Whose investments go down in value? Mine. Who is out of control with money? Me. Whose child is suffering? My own.

Were you wishing this, or rather, a sense of recompense or justice? I think we all have difficult times. I do not think you jinxed yourself, it is life at work. Bad things happen to good people.
We all go through thought processes and phases when we are hurt or wronged.

I seek understanding and acceptance of of daypmy life and myself. It is hard, because there has been so little family for 50 years or more. I still am wondering if it is my fault.

How could it be your fault Copa? These things happened to you as a child, how could you have caused this? You built a life of your own after growing up with hardship. I would say you were bold and brave.
(((Hugs)))
Leafy

 

[BusynMember]

I am coming to believe that the response of my family was to shun me. They would only accept me if I continued to be within the mold that I had formed under their influence.

Copa...I hope this helps.

You both left each other. You did not want to play the family role they cast you in, and they only wanted you if you would. This is healthy of you and unhealthy of them. In all families, even non-dyysfunctional ones, we get labeled with roles (I saw this on Dr. Phil Friday. I used to roll my eyes at him, but he was brilliant and it is true). He was trying to get a family to stop shunning and taking all their problems out on one daughter who he labled the family black sheep. There was a victim/giving up mother (he doesn't feel anyone should give up completely on a minor child) and the bleacher bum dad who never interacted and the "good" sister. I wanted to jump up and down and cheer for him. He nailed it. Then he said that he can't fix Black Sheep because it is a family problem. One person does not make the family problem. The entire family has a problem.

I believe this.

My mom would have been a horrible mother to ALL of us as children whether I had been there or not. She had no idea how to truly nurture, teach boundaries, teach coping skills, be comforting, nothing. And my brother would have still been physically ill and friendless and suffering because she did not know how to deal with his problems and my sister, the one who left the house as often as possible, would have still been ignored. And my dad would have been even a greater scapegoat because my mother knew no other way than to have a "lesser than" to her golden child brother, as it was in her home, and she was unwilling or unable to have the insight to see that she was doing the same thing she had to endure...being the "lesser than." I don't think my grandmother abused her, but then she was a people pleaser to her mother's wishes and I was not. How dare I question our family unit, especially as a kid. In a dysfunctional family, you do not s it down and discuss problems. The dynamics for that are not there. You just get shunned for bringing anything up.

There is no real one answer to this question. Whose fault is it? It was the way your family unit worked. Like mine. You did what you had to do. It was not wrong. You were mistreated. They retaliated like most dysfunctional families do if they shunned or semi-shunned you or tried to make you feel guilty for having a robust life that does not include them.

I hope one day you can move on and make friends, and find your own family of choice. Luckily you have M, but he is only one person. You are so intelligent and nice, I'm sure you could make many friends who would value you. I value you.

Hugs and let's try to both have serene and happy days!!!!

 

[BusynMember]

How could it be your fault Copa? These things happened to you as a child, how could you have caused this? You built a life of your own after growing up with hardship. I would say you were bold and brave.

The answer I found was to form one's own family of choice. It is so much better to me than depending on DNA connections that you actually may not even like. Many people do this. It is NOT uncommon to do this. Nobody should hang around people that demean them. NOBODY.

You are never too old to form a family, Copa. A family that is loving rather than hurtful.

 

[Copabanana]

I'm sure you could make many friends who would value you. I value you.

Thank you.

 

[New Leaf]

The answer I found was to form one's own family of choice. It is so much better to me than depending on DNA connections that you actually may not even like. Many people do this. It is NOT uncommon to do this. Nobody should hang around people that demean them. NOBODY.

I agree Serenity. I think we naturally long to have a good relationship with our FOO. Sometimes it is not possible. It depends on the willingness on all sides, and how people treat one another. I think there are some folks out there who have some very real problems with treating others with kindness and fellow feeling, with empathy.
We are all imperfect humans and make mistakes. By ones actions, or repeated actions, mistakes reveal character flaws and show at times a twisted value system.
If one has been mistreated from childhood, it is difficult to step back and see just what the reality of it is. I think many people coming from dysfunctional families (and I write this realizing every family has a bit of dysfunction) go through a period of time self examining and wondering what they did, or have done to warrant ill treatment. Then there is an Ah Ha moment, hopefully somewhere down the line, that it was not a fault of their own, but a reflection of their family system.
It definitely takes a lot of work and undoing, damage done.
A large part of our self image is formed during our childhoods. Finding a way to process and learn, grow away from past experiences and others perceptions of who we are, is paramount.
I think it is true that we all have our inner child still within us, certain incidences in our present lives, may trigger painful memories of the past. I think this is a way of our selves, trying to heal wounds that we were not able to understand or fix as children.
http://www.mindful.org/healing-the-child-within/
If family members continue to act in the same cycle of roles, this is damaging.

I agree with you, that it is important to move on, and develop relationships with others, that become your own family.
Part of the problem may be, if people are so hurt by their own blood, how does one trust to bond with others? Then it becomes a matter of trusting yourself and being vulnerable.
I think people may shy away from trying to create relationship with others, because of past hurts and trust issues. Then, it is learning to trust ourselves, to make good judgement calls, on who we should allow into our inner circle.
I know, in my case, I have made mistakes in trusting people, and have felt at times that I have a "kick me" sign on.

I have learned to proceed a little more cautiously, before I let my guard down, and dive full force into friendships.

I absolutely love people, I am fascinated by the range of personalities and experiences out there.
I do realize, there are people out there, who are cunning and have hidden agendas, so one does have to be careful.

It is a matter of guarding our hearts, and discovering who we are, and what we would like our time left on this earth, to be. There is always the spice of circumstance, that we have to deal with. I guess it is a matter of being the captains of our own ships, and the people we draw close to, are on the journey with us.

It is all about how we choose to spend our valuable time.
In this life, we do not have the opportunity to call time outs, and stop the clock.
It just keeps ticking on, faster and faster it seems, the older I get.

Here is a quote from Epictetus, one of my Dads favorite philosophers

"The greater the difficulty the more glory in surmounting it. Skillful pilots gain their reputation from storms and tempests."

Hugs and let's try to both have serene and happy days!!!!

Yup, serene and happy days! So important.
Thank you Copa and Serenity for sharing your heart thoughts. I think when the day is done, and we have overcome our challenges, we should all be pretty skilled "pilots"......

(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[BusynMember]

Part of the problem may be, if people are so hurt by their own blood, how does one trust to bond with others? Then it becomes a matter of trusting yourself and being vulnerable.

Leafie, I can only tell you what I did, and it's not the answer for everybody. What does "your own blood" mean anyway? In a very real way, if we needed a blood transfusion somebody off the street with compatible blood could give it. What is "blood?" Beaver Cleaver is overrated and outdated and he's probably divorced

I decided to try again. After all, not everyone disliked me or thought I was awful. My first husband was not the best relationship for me, but we didn't hate each other. My kids didn't hate me. My friends didn't hate me. I think I thought all along in two ways---if my FOO didn't like me, who would? Then another part of me said that if I was so terrible, why did other people like me? Nobody likes awful people.

When I met my second husband, I was leery and backed out a few times, but I was willing to try and it paid off in spades. If we don't try, we will never get the validation, love and feeling of wholeness that we want. I feel whole. I do not connect that with my DNA family. They are strangers in my life by now. I adopted kids. I don't feel DNA is that important. I feel whole, needed, a part of, and an important member of my chosen family, something I never did with my FOO and something I could never have achieved if I had been unwilling to try again.

I guess I'll never be interested in looking into my "family" tree as I don't feel connected to my DNA and that's ok. I don't have to be. I am very much my own person.

Anyhow, we are all different and I hope you can find what works for you

 

[New Leaf]

Hi Serenity, thank you. I have a few very close friends, and that is fine with me. The trouble is, our lives are so darn busy with jobs and kids, kids hobbies and sports, it is hard to get together. So, now the challenge is to make time, because we do love each other a lot, and have fun when we do get together.

I decided to try again. After all, not everyone disliked me or thought I was awful. My first husband was not the best relationship for me, but we didn't hate each other. My kids didn't hate me. My friends didn't hate me. I think I thought all along in two ways---if my FOO didn't like me, who would? Then another part of me said that if I was so terrible, why did other people like me?

My problem has been to be too trusting and quick to dive into things. There was a period of time when I went into hermit mode, I do not mind being alone. It was after being completely squashed by a bully on a non profit board I was on for awhile. Now, she is attempting to oust others and shun folks who put a lot of love, time and effort into the organization. It is disturbingly like the mean girls at high school who get others to gang up on people they do not like. I suppose this is a form of shunning also. I am flabbergasted by things that have gone on, deceit, accusations, finger pointing and such. It is politics at it's ugliest. UGH.
I have come to realize that this is not how I want to spend my time volunteering.

When I met my second husband, I was leery and backed out a few times, but I was willing to try and it paid off in spades. If we don't try, we will never get the validation, love and feeling of wholeness that we want. I feel whole. I do not connect that with my DNA family. They are strangers in my life by now. I adopted kids. I don't feel DNA is that important.

Nope, DNA is not all that important.
I still have my family, they have not shunned me. There were moments there, but, we shall see what happens.
I am so sorry for your experience, and others who have been treated thusly.
Mom is better, but still, the lung cancer....... Her wish is for us to be family and get along, so I will try my best to fulfill that for her, with what time she has on earth.
It is the least I could do.
I just have to more careful with my words and sharing, to keep things peaceable. "Don't rock the boat...."
It has helped tremendously to be able to share here on CD.

Thank you Serenity.

leafy

 

[New Leaf]

Today I love being different an d feel I am different in a good way...compassionate, kind, willing to help anyone (without enabling), a good friend, if I love you and you love me I will love you forever...in other words, my differences are mostly good. Some of my neuro-cognitive issues are not positive, but they sure make me understand the most belittled and outcasted people and to have great compassion and caring toward them. I don't really want to be a normal person who only cares about myself. Like most of my FOO.

From what I read here, your comments, kindness, love and caring, you are different in a wonderful way, Serenity. Anyone who is your friend is truly blessed to have your companionship and love. Thank you for being you!
(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[New Leaf]

Good day to you all, out to tackle the weeds....
leafy

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

However, after 15 years of disconnection and missing out on every conceivable form of familial association, love, support, good times and bad times and all that those teach us about how to grow as a human being

"...that teach us how to grow as a human being...."

This is true, Serenity. I am always certain things are going to end badly, and that I won't exactly know why. It surprises me when people reappear, or when they want to be near one another even if there are disagreements. D H family is like that. They will go out of their ways for one another in situations in which my family of origin would not only turn away, but join together to condemn. I have posted before about y family's response to the vulnerability opened in our marriage when our daughter began acting out.

They were spitefully mean about every aspect of our lives.

Where another family would have supported, they chose to attack piecemeal.

***

When we grow up that way, we think that is how the world works. We don't understand how to respond to disagreement. We think it is the beginning of shunning. It's like me forever wondering why D H stayed with me through everything.

I had not realized this about myself. The effect that threat of shunning will have had on how mystified I am when relationships don't end. Or, the certainty I have that they are not going to turn out well.

A part of why shunning (or going "no contact") works is because it does not make any sense. We find ourselves abruptly alone. Or, as happened in my case this time, we know we are fighting for a principle, but everyone else not only does not stand with us, but become allied against us.

We are abruptly alone. And we understand we are defenseless because that is how it worked in our families of origin. Not only would they not want us but they made sure we would believe no one else would, either.

Shunning is a power-over tool.

And it is the abusive parent who wields the power, because the sibs are hostage to the threat of shunning, too.

Is that why we were threats to the mother?

Once we believe shunning is just what happens next, much of the sting of it is gone. In this incarnation of shunning, I felt badly enough to decide to figure it out. I did not dream it would end and begin with the shunning dynamic itself.

That is the core thing wrong with our families of origin.

That dynamic.

The power in the threat of isolation. The example of the shunned sib to keep the others in line. The abuser reigns supreme.

Like always.

Huh.

Shunning is a silent and insidious form of psychological torture. It is nearly impossible to describe its effects unless you have felt it yourself. It eats away at your insides in a way that can be invisible even to oneself.(This is what to me vindictive "no contact" is...no contact done to punish. I am well aware of this. If it were truly no contact, the person doing it would move on with his/her life and not think about us. In my case, it has been ANYTHING but that. My FOO stalker is MORE than just in my face...needs to know what I do at all times, it seems. My own private thoughts here have been obsessively read). Anyhow, digressing back to the article....

I have that feeling, too. That the reward for the shunner is to see the hurt and confusion. If shunning were truly about judging against the person being shunned, there would be no further contact at all. Everyone would heal, and life would go on. Shunning is a form of relationship, then. It isn't about distancing from those we disapprove of. It is playing a game of relationship where the negatives, and not the positives, are what matters.

I was thinking again about the first paragraph. About the part about fifteen years, or a lifetime would be more true, of these kinds of warped ways of evaluating ourselves.

How that would be a primary question for us, one without an answer, even before we are adults. Those first traumatic incidents must be the root of the shame-response to being shunned.

That is alot of power for an abusive parent to wield. Maybe it becomes the abuser's primary power, once we are grown and on our own. That power to divide and ally against.

Could that be it?

And the sibs just keep doing it, because it is all any of us knows about how relationship works in our families of origin.

There is a story about a Mongolian peasant. He is said to represent things we are ashamed of ~ times we've hurt someone else intentionally or taken something that wasn't ours or been mean to our animals or whatever. Each of us has this representation of things we are ashamed of. They say that when we do not know why something bad has happened to us, when we cannot figure out why, we pull that imaginary Mongolian peasant out and believe the bad things we've done that he represents is why the current bad things are happening.

That is how we make ourselves sick over shunning. That is how we make it make sense. But the thing is, no one else really knows about the things we are most ashamed of. The shunning is not happening for that but that is where the sting of it comes from.

If we can understand how it hurts, then we can heal that part of it.

I cannot think how to heal the part that you posted in your first paragraphs. The hurt of it over time, and in every aspect of being.

That is so sad, for us.

Every day I get up and I don't have my family is a day I am being subjected to abuse. Even if my day rolls on the same as yesterday, even if nobody is yelling at me or breaking my bones, or whatever. Every day my family chooses to maintain their silence and their distance and that means every day they choose to hurt me.

Yes. Every single day, a hundred times a day, and when we wake up in the night, too, wondering why and feeling so badly about it and what to do about it. And what to do about the anger it creates and that we put away somewhere so we can do the right things.

I have been very angry over things I had seen but not seen. Things I knew were wrongnesses, but excused automatically.

That's what I mean when I say "shunning in place". It was never just the shunning we could see. It was like a shell game of shunning, everyone trying not to be the one shunned.

There is alot of power accruing to the abusive parent, in everything to do with shunning.

I think it is supremely important to acknowledge that the suffering each day is real. It has a source, it is not some internal personality flaw one has. It is a very deliberate strategy with aims and rules.

"It is a very deliberate strategy with aims and rules."

True. A deliberate thing that is done. Not an exasperated, "I've had it." but a deliberately hurtful thing that is savored.

It is a strategy designed specifically to hurt you in the most deep and abiding way. It is a strategy to make you believe that you are completely unloveable, and always will be.

Just like the abusive parent was able to do through shaming and physical abuse when their children were little. That was a softening up technique to establish external locus of control. If we only tried harder, if we lived through the abusive parent's eyes and not our own, we believed we could figure it out. We believed we were not bright enough to live our lives by our own choice or interpret ourselves through our own eyes.

That would be a fear-based definition of reality.

Maybe, those feelings that, though we will give it our best shot, someone else will be able to come along and, effortlessly, do it better ~ maybe that is where that kind of thinking comes from.

Shunning in those earlier forms may be the basis for all of it. That belief system kind of relationship where someone has the power to control others through defining the one to be outcast.

That is alot of power.

No wonder the abusive parent chooses not to give that up.

Then he said that he can't fix Black Sheep because it is a family problem. One person does not make the family problem. The entire family has a problem.

Yes.

The entire family has a hatred problem. Hatred, isolation, the preferred response instead of the feeling other families are raised to know in the core of their beings: We've got your back.

Can you imagine?

We have not had someone who had our backs. We have had divisiveness and outright hatred.

We have been very strong, to come through this.

I a forever posting about brainwashed or PTSD soldiers. But we were just little kids. We knew nothing else of the world.

Now, we can learn that other, kinder reality, and claim it for ourselves.

I think it begins with "kinder". Kinder to ourselves. When I think of the incredible brain power here as we research and write and redevelop ourselves here on the site, I am amazed at each of us.

We have made a difference for ourselves, and for one another. We are doing this. It will take time.

When I think how alone we have been, I am astonished at our bravery and courage. But bravery and courage are lonely places to be, and small recompense for that feeling of security which we might have enjoyed in our lives if just once, we knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that someone who knew us and loved us had our backs.

Shunning is a horrific thing. I believe we have lived that rotten reality every day of our lives but you know what? I still don't get the win. What has the shunning family achieved?

Their own stupid destruction, as their children spend their energies and lifetimes trying to understand how to survive, how to trust, again.

I keep forgetting to believe what I know about my Family of Origin. It's unbelievable stuff, really. Like I always do post, I do not understand what the win is. I know people though whose families are supportive, loving things. It is wonderful to see it.

You were very right Serenity, in posting that shunning hurts us every single day, in a thousand ways. We don't even know the half of it: Not only what we did get, not only the unbelievable things that did happen, but all the wonderful things that did not.

But here we all are. And now, we know better how to survive it. And that is our business, here. To hold both them and ourselves with compassion but at the same time, to never be fooled or victimized y them, again.

I still don't get the win in it for them.

I honestly don't.

And no matter that we are able to pull the pieces together and go on...we merit families worthy of love.

We just don't have them.

They are dangerous to us.

Cedar