Another school shooting - when does it stop?

K

Kjs

Guest
How does this affect everyone's difficult child? We didn't tell difficult child, but when he logged onto the internet it was all over the page. Our difficult child said they practice lock-downs, but he refuses to do a lock down if there was someone in his school. He said he would run out the back door or window. We keep trying to tell him how dangerous that would be, that lockdowns are for the safety of the students. Police and gunman would shoot at anything moving and he needs to follow the rules. Lockdowns would prevent the shooter from entering the classroom. However he read where in this recent shooting that kids tried to keep the door shut and the gunman shot through the door killing them. So, he is convinced that running would be best. It is hard to change difficult child's mind once he has his mind made up.
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
I dont think the statistics are that the majority of school shooters have been on psychiatric medications. Whether they should have been or not is another matter. Most of these "kids" have been loners. Some have not even been known to the schools as troubled.

Maybe this would be a good thesis or something for someone in academia.

As far as dark writings...anyone read steven king, watched any horror movies? Ick.
 

dreamer

New Member
sadly, I am not sure in this case if there would have been a "correct" answer. Breaking away from the crowd might draw attention to someone, but staying in the crowd did not seem to have a positive outcome in this case either.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Let's hope that studying this case, and this young man, can provide knowledge and understanding that will help prevent tragedies like this in the future. At least then something positive can come out of this. He sounded deeply disturbed and people were trying to get help for him. I find no fault in the police or those who saw the warnings but had their hands tied - we do what we can do. 20:20 hindsight is a luxury that we just can't use as prevention, after the fact.

It's early days yet but the information now coming out is very depressing for everybody. What a waste. What a tragedy.

Marg
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
had a small brain tumour, pressing on a part of his brain which is responsible for violent thoughts and actions. The author of this paper has suggested that other mass shooters should also be carefully autopsied.
Wow. Interesting.
This kid clearly had a history and should have been kicked off campus earlier... he set a fire, and stalked women. That doesn't even touch on the weird screenplays. But you can't kick someone off campus for being gross in their creativity. It was a connect-the-dot thing.
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Actually, the general public doesn't "get it" when it comes to this sort of thing. They will put all bi-polar people or any other diagnosis in the same category.
I think it's like autism... a spectrum. People need to be educated.
I agree with-the basic premise that we are all responsible for our own actions. Reminds me of the orginal "Twinkie Defense" in the 70s.

I am sorry but in my opinion, sick or not, no one has an excuse for shooting 48 people and killing 33 of them. All the deceased reportedly had at least three bullets in them. AOL has two of his plays on its site. I read one it is SICK! The other one..well I couldn't get past the second page. I pray for his parents, I cannot imgine their pain and horror. -RM

I didn't even read the plays. I knew it would be too much for me.
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Kjs and all, our kids do lock-downs, too. Ironically, my difficult child just interviewed one of my sisters for a family tree project. One of the questions was of her most vivid school memory--it was hiding under the desks during a bomb drill. Back then it was the U.S. vs Russia. She thought that would get his attention and was shocked that he was so lackadaisical about it.
Turned out that when I spoke with-him and easy child, they both said they practice that sort of thing frequently, both for terrorist threats and gun threats (aka Va Tech).
It's a whole new world.
Yes, we told difficult child. He was going to hear about it on the news anyway so this way I could put in my 2 cents worth. :smile:
Mostly he asked questions, like was it a student, how old was he, why did he do it? (The 6 million dollar question!) difficult child is very law-abiding and we're not at all worried about this sort of thing in the future. Most of his anger is directed at me, and he has already learned that there are certain things you don't do in public... even tear up phonebooks or throw toy cars. There are appropriate ways to express anger.
And that's part of what this shooting thing is all about. In a strange way, writing a very disturbing screenplay was appropriate. Following it to a real life enactment was bizarre. It's something that even professionals have a hard time dealing with.
 

dreamer

New Member
If you google school shoters and psychiatric medications, you will get many articles. I think most of them speak of maybe the last 13 school shootings that were high media and out of those 13, 8 involved shooters who used psychiatric medications? Which is more than half, and to me, an inordinately high number of people.
It could be that these kids were already identified as high risk, or it could be something more.
On CNN last nite or nite before there was Sanjay Gupta and someone else- maybe a forensic psychiatric- and they did discuss how an AD can lift a persons energy just enough to act out on their feelings, but not enough to lift the negativity.
I do know there has been a lot of research done re: school shootings and many people and organizations trying to find a way to stop these tragic incidents. But for now, we do not lock up all persons who seem a little "off" or have a "dark" side or who is a loner. And if we dug hard enough we could find something "wrong" with everyone. (if you google something like Teenscreen- you might find articles referring to just how many people could be diagnosis'ed with some type of mental illness using such screening tools.....nearly everyone could possibly earn themself a diagnosis)


Now here is something sad. Last week at a HS in the city here...a student discharged a gun he got into the school by accident- I mean he discharged it by accident, LOL- I did not mean he got it into the school by accident, anyway- he and another student were injured. Turns ouut that HS DID have metal detectors at the doors, but last I knew (which may have changed by now) was that the kid DID go thru the metal detectors with the gun. ANd the detector DID go off....BUT.......noone CHECKED him and he was waved on, anyway!!!!! My dtr - my easy child was quite angry that last year 2 students in her school were found on school premises with a 2 guns (one gun each) BUT that never made the newspaper and the word was not spread around that it had happened, it was kept quite secret.
I know stores here have those things you walk under when you leave the store and theory is an alarm sounds if you stole something. I cannot tell you how many times the alarm sounds and the person at the door simply waves people thru and does not bother to check to see if anything was stolen. SO even when there ARE "safeguards" put in place, people dismiss the info gained from the security equipment.
AH and then we have our county courthouse and I went there with a splint on my wrist......and nevermind it was a medical thing- the security required I remove my splint, nevermind it made me yelp in pain and ache for days afterward. I HAD to remove the splint and then clear the metal detector without the splint. My husband said when he went thru our county courthouse security with his walker, it was quite complicated-----and painful. SO I guess I should take some measure of comfort in the fact my county courthouse seems to take security seriously? LOL----the guards at the front doors one day made some comment to me, bordering on rude, and I said HEY! excuse me BUT not ALL of us who come to the courthouse are defendants............some of us are victims, some of us are witnesses, some are spectators, and some of us are other county employees going to the human resources office here in the building-------and some of us are here for county records such as birth certificates and such. Please keep that in mind. We are ALL entitled to some measure of respect and dignity! (his comment had something to do with everyone being there was in his opinion becuz they were ALL defendants)
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
Ack, Dreamer! What's the point of a metal detector if you're going to ignore it? (I know that's the point. :grin:)

Turns out that this Va Tech student had a former English teacher who brought some of his work to the police some time ago and of course, they couldn't do anything because he hadn't "done" anything. Then she took it to the campus counseling ofc. She tried everything. She is still alive... she may have retired or gotten another job some time ago and no longer works on campus. (I could Google it but I don't have time right now.)
The point is, this was a long-standing thing and this kid really did stand out from your typical weirdo. He was way beyond the "being able to find something wrong with-everyone" standard.

I don't know that there will ever be a system that catches all the kids like that who fall through the cracks. It's not like people didn't try.

All those perfectly good lives, wasted. It's sickening.
 

Sara PA

New Member
I would estimate that the statistic for school shooters being on psychotropics is about 90% or higher. Virtually every one of them was taking an antidepressant, the one notable exception was the leader of the two very young shooters in Kentucky was taking a stimulant which can also cause aggression and psychosis.
 

dreamer

New Member
Partly it is difficult becuz if we did lock up everyone whom was a little or a lot "off" - there would be so many people we would have to lock up-------and it is not just school shooters- but also all kinds of other people - people who do scary dangerous things, but unless they have crossed the line and have done something tangible and very illegal, what would you charge them with? Or under what claims would you lock them up? Already there is a shortage of mental health care and jails are already overcrowded and there is a potential for harmless people to also get swept up and caught up in things if we were too indiscrimanat in tucking people away.
 

DDD

Well-Known Member
How many of us have "loners" without "friends"??? That describes
my difficult child (16) and only after living with us for years do I feel that he is "safe" in his choices. on the other hand, it would be blankin' nice if there was real support available in the school system
for the kids who are ignored, bullied, laughed at, teased..etc.

Somehow I feel particularly sad for this boys parents because of
their origins. I have never been friends with an Asian family
(not because I exclude them..I just don't know any Asians) but
my impression is that the Koreans are hardworking people who
probably stay very close to family and don't bond much with the
different cultures. How extra painful it must be to lose a child
and hear/see on television the "profile of a killer" over and over again, with few if any people surrounding you and giving you
support.

All of us are lucky because we have each other. DDD
 

dreamer

New Member
I agree with you there, DDD. when kids repeatedly have to face bullying, teaseing etc.......well, I often read here how many of the parents have a difficult time dealing and coping with the abuse their difficult children throw at them daily------and then if you are a child being treated that way daily....I can imagine some could reach a point where they simply no longer care- becuz they might truly feel deep in their core, nothing matters anymore. - If thats how their perception of the world has been......
It is unbearable when you are that kid being bullied, teased etc.or when you are the kid who is different. ANd for some, all the therapy, all the medications etc..sometimes they still just do not "get it" and know how to handle life etc or "change" themself or do whatever it takes.
 

Sara PA

New Member
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rejectedmom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sorry but in my opinion, sick or not, no one has an excuse for shooting 48 people and killing 33 of them. All the deceased reportedly had at least three bullets in them. AOL has two of his plays on its site. I read one it is SICK! The other one..well I couldn't get past the second page. I pray for his parents, I cannot imgine their pain and horror. -RM </div></div>
Psychosis would be a legitmate excuse. Antidepressants can cause psychosis in some people. Or he could have been psychotic without the AD.
 

Kathy813

Well-Known Member
Staff member
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Definition of excuse:

to offer an apology for; seek to remove the blame of: He excused his absence by saying that he was ill.

to serve as an apology or justification for; justify: Ignorance of the law excuses no one.

To explain (a fault or an offense) in the hope of being forgiven or understood: He arrived late and excused his tardiness in a flimsy manner.

To apologize for (oneself) for an act that could cause offense: She excused herself for being late.

To grant pardon to; forgive: We quickly excused the latecomer.

To make allowance for; overlook: Readers must excuse the author's youth and inexperience
</div></div>

Mental illness might be an explanation for what he did but it is not an excuse. Nothing can serve as a justification or allow us to overlook or remove blame from this individual.

There is no excuse for this.

~Kathy
 

Sara PA

New Member
Of course psychosis is an excuse. By definition it's an excuse. What do think someone with psychosis can do to keep from being psychotic? Do you think that willpower or "making good choices" is the cure for psychosis? By definition someone who is psychotic can't do those things with regard to his illness or the actions related to his psychotic thinking.
 

Kathy813

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Thanks, Janet.

I just don't think having a mental illness excuses someone when they commit murder (in this case ~ 32 times).

Then again, it's not surprising that Sara and I don't agree about this.

~Kathy
 

Sara PA

New Member
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kathy813</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Then again, it's not surprising that Sara and I don't agree about this. </div></div>
So, what choices do you think a psychotic person should make in order to stop being psychotic? And do you think that people can control other physiological disorders -- cancer cell growth, diabetes, PMS -- by making good choices?

ETA: It's easy to sit there and spout that psychosis is no excuse but you need to explain how someone living in an reality altered by a malfunctioning brain is suppose to choose to live in the "normal" reality.
 

Kathy813

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Sara,

Are you really excusing what this person did? Would you be this understanding and forgiving if it was your son would was murdered in cold blood while sitting in his German class?

If the shooter had survived, would you have given him a get out of jail card because of his mental illness?

I have been watching parents of murdered children all day on the news. My heart is breaking for them.

Mental illness is not a license to kill. I simply don't agree with your take on this.

~Kathy
 
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