Any ideas??

Discussion in 'General Parenting' started by klmno, Jan 2, 2009.

  1. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    for getting difficult child back on schedule? He stays up later and later and sleeps later and later and doesn't care, much less make any effort to change it. If you recall, he only went to school about one day a week the last few weeks before holiday break. It appears to me that not only is this interfering with any move toward becoming more stable, but he won't be anywhere prepared to go to school Monday morning. So, this is a Basket B, if not basket A item for me.

    I wake him up in the moornings to give him his medications, so at least they stay on schedule. He raises up, takes them, then goes right back to sleep. He rants and raves if I try to talk to him about getting out of bed and will pick something up and throw it if I try to pull covers off or actually do anything. He really doesn't have anything I can take at this point to punish him with. I can't physically make him get in bed at night. Rewards aren't even working right now because 1) he's not acting like he wants anything, 2) we have no money and his b-day is in 2 weeks, 3) he's gotten to a point where if I dangle a carrot, he makes issue if he doesn't get it from me, whether he really did everything he should or not.

    So, how do you work with a kid using Basket B appraoches, if the kid sees it as a Basket C item?
  2. smallworld

    smallworld Moderator

    Basket B would be talking calmly together and coming up with a solution together. If he doesn't buy into the process of solving the problem with you, it can't be a Basket B item. If your difficult child would agree to work with you, you could try suggesting he back up his bedtime by half an hour each night so he's getting to bed earlier each night until school starts.

    My son was staying up late night after night because he didn't want morning to come because then he would have to go to school. We actually had to get a sleep medication (Seroquel, in our case) to get him to go to sleep at a reasonable time or it just wasn't going to happen (he was anxious and manic at the time). If your difficult child can't go to sleep earlier, you might need to talk to the psychiatrist about it.
  3. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    Gee, this is not one of my strong points. I hear you.
    I have had to call friends to come over and literally get difficult child out of bed. I'm not a big person and I cannot have a wrestling match with-him.
    difficult child will get out of bed if a friend calls him on the phone. Can you have your difficult child's friends call him and ask a simple question or just say hi? That would be a good carrot.

    Also, do you think his medications are slowing him down or making him too hyper to fall asleep? My difficult child's schedule is much better now that he's on Vistaril. (antihistamine for sleep.)
  4. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

  5. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    So KLMNO, I feel like I have lost touch with you. :( Sorry.

    Where are you at with getting difficult child placed in a Residential Treatment Center (RTC)? Is that still the direction you want to go?

    I think kids with bi-polar need unbelievable amounts of structure when it comes to their timing of sleep. This is not ever something I put in any other basket except A for Matt. In fact it was one of the only things I put in A, because without going to bed at a certain time, his cycling would flare. He had to be in bed, and asleep at a certain time.

    Of course medications helped to put him to sleep, but around 8 I would start the process of closing the blinds, telling him it was time to watch tv as a family, let him get a snack, give him his medications, and then he after an hour or so he had to go to bed.

    Now I started this when he was about 9, and it stuck until 16, so it did not really become too much of battle unless he was over the top manic. At age 16, as you know, our whole world feel apart, and I let everything with him fall. It resulted in him going to his normal bi-polar internal clock schedule, which was staying up all night, and sleeping all day. (His dad is bi-polar, and without a job, he does the same thing. Weird.)

    I am not sure how you start this with difficult child now, except maybe using some carrots as perks. As in,
    "Hey we are "both" going to start having this new routine and going to bed at the same time, because I am just not getting enough sleep, and I know you are not either. Plus I want to start having family time, so at 9 each night lets watch a movie, have some snacks, talk a little, and then lights out for the whole house at 11."
    Something like that.
    I used to tell Matt, which was true, that I could not sleep if he was awake, and I had to get my sleep or I could not go to work and provide for us.

    Be creative, but perhaps making the structure part of the house's structure, will help. Heck blame it on the dogs, pumkin needs sleep, she is becoming confused because everyone is up all the time. Or the power company is going into a brown out at 10, they now need citizens to cut off all power at 9 :tongue: Whatever it takes, but I would make this a basket A or his cycling will continue to flare.

    Hugs, and let me know where you are at the in the process of getting outside help for him. I know the structure of where Matt is at now, helps him a lot. New years eve they could stay up as long as they wanted, and my first thought was - oh - I bet the next day he was a great......not The kid has always needed like 11 hours of sleep to be rational. No lie. In fact, at one point the psychiatrist also added ambien just so he would actually go to sleep because that is how important it was to keep him from cycling.
  6. everywoman

    everywoman Active Member

    You posted earlier that he was excited about looking for volunteer work. With his birthday looming, use that as a carrot. When he gets up today, have him look at various organizations that he is interested in, call them and make some morning appts. for tomorrow and Sunday to talk to them about working---when does he go back to school? I'm assuming Monday. That way, by Monday, he is hopefully back in routine.
  7. klmno

    klmno Active Member

    Since difficult child has no desire to get himself back on schedule (in his mind- it's a Basket C), I've been trying to cut it back 1/2 hr to 1 hr each day. Obviously, that didn't work because he stayed up til 4:00 this morning and is sstill in bed. I went up about 1 hr ago and he spoke a min then went right back to sleep. EW & Steely- I'll work with your ideas and see if I can get them to help with going to bed earlier. Thanks!!

    As far as getting more serious help- I just got off phone with social services. She had to get off phone unexpectedly and is supposed to call back later. Anyway, she said it sounded like I needed to use the "Parental Placement" option. This was something I read about last month and was trying to pursue. I didn't realize that it was actually only signed into law Dec 1- she said this might be a lot of reason why people are giving me conflicting info- that all people don't know about it yet. It still ends up in front of that county team and social services can't get me there. A parent can pursue, UNLESS the kid is on probation, then it must be requested, or at least bleessed, by the probation officer. Wonderful....

    Now that I know a little more "correct" terminology, I'm going to explain this to principal at school- I'm not asking for IEP recommendation to place difficult child in Residential Treatment Center (RTC). I'm asking principal to refer county team so I can pursue parental placement. (There are many advantages to this- the parent can remove child at any time, the parent discusses and agrees with placement, no court orders are involved). So, this is Plan A.

    Plan B (which I will pursue concurrently) is to see if difficult child's therapist will write a letter recommending this. If he will, I will present it to PO and request her to request this. If she won't, I will go to her supervisor and also see if I can get the rogue GAL back in to help. Hopefully, I won't have to take it to the judge. But, if therapist recommended it and county didn't provide it, then difficult child did something horrible, it would appear to me that the county would be as responsible as they would hold me if I didn't follow therapist's recommendations.

    Anyway, another point is that the soc services lady said if we got to the tablee to discuss parental placement, the county team would still look at whether or not anyone (the community) could provide anything to try keeping difficult child in home first. The placement would be temporary, if it comes to that. He'd come back home when treatment goals are met.

    I explained some of the history and recent events to this lady. She said she could see why I was so frustrated. She also said that unfortunately, due to the current legal involvement, it is unlikely that this plan will work. She said unless I can get the probation officer to see this as a mental health issue and get her to see this as a better option that commitment to state, that difficult child would probablly end up in state Department of Juvenile Justice correctional facility. :( The way this probation officer is though, she doesn't think outside whatever box the court order says.

    I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but when in-home therapy was an issue, the GAL said in court that she thought psychiatrist meant MST services (one type of in-home therapy), so judge wrote MST in the court order but said that PO could change that to a different type if another type was needed. The PO refused to hear anything I said about it when we were actually meeting in her office a month later. She said "well, judge wrote MST in the order, so that's what has to be provided".

    I think PO is going to look at this situation and say "well, judge has difficult child on a suspended sentence to commitment to state Department of Juvenile Justice, so if things aren't going well at home, then I can only take this back to judge and request suspension be revoked". It's like she can't or won't consider that she has authority and perogative to recommend something else. What's worse, is that she doesn't get the mental health part- she is one who thinks there is no such thing as a mental health problem like this in a kid. Even worse, she's 20-something and never raised a kid like this, so of course, she thinks she knows everything about parenting.

    I don''t see how I'll ever get her blessing. And whatever I need to tell to get her to see the severity will only serve to make her think difficult child should be locked up in Department of Juvenile Justice. I have no faith in her supervisor to do anything other than back her up. I called him for something last year- I thought it was cut and dry that she was out of line. He backed her up and just talked to me like I was nothing more than another complaining parent- this was after she wanted to know specifics about what we were discussing with therapist and after she tried to play therapist with us and told me I was wasting my time to take difficult child for an MDE.

    I think I better get therapist on board quick. I called and he's out of office until Monday.

    If anyone has any ideas, thoughts, experiences about any of this, please share.

    FWIW, psychiatrist won't help with this one, I don't think. I think he'll defer to therapist, for one thing. For another, any time difficult child is sympotommatic, psychiatrist says he's ODD. When difficult child isn't sympotommatic, psychiatrist removes that diagnosis/label. Yett, it was psychiatrist who says difficult child is BiPolar (BP). Whe I told psychiatrist difficult child was in psychiatric hospital 2 weeks ago for cutting himself and should I consent to that new medication to help prevent impulese, psychiatrist said it won't help if difficult child is just doing this to manipulate. Well, I agree, hhowever, I look at it like irrational thinking on difficult child's part, whether or not difficult child is trying to manipulate or not. Just like when he used to try to jump out of the car- it was a sign that something was wrong, no matter what difficult child was "thinking". But, conveying something in writing from psychiatrist to courts saying difficult child is just ODD when he does things like this only pushes the GAL, then judge, to lock difficult child up in a correctional facility.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2009
  8. Klmno, I completely understand where you are coming from, this is a problem with both of my kids. Even with a hefty dose of Geodon and now adding to it Depakote (currently 750mg at bedtime) he has trouble going to sleep. Very frustrating to say the least.

    My daughter has a lot of difficulty going to sleep and then when she does sleep most of the time it isn't restful. She does have a script for Trazadone, but doesn't like to even take 1/2 dose because it makes it hard to get up in the morning, so she won't take it unless she really has to.

    I am really liking some of the advice given here.

    Good luck.

  9. DaisyFace

    DaisyFace Love me...Love me not

    Hello KLMNO--

    My difficult child is the same age as yours...(although the diagnosis(es) are different)...and we were starting to experience a few troubles over bed and wake times. In our household, there is more emphasis on getting up on time than on bed time. We put it that 9pm is your bed time...if you stay up in bed reading (no TV or video games or anything) that's OK...but you absolutely must be up at 7am...if you are not up on time there will be consequences.

    Well, one morning difficult child did NOT get up at the appointed time for school...and so my husband simply walked into her bedroom and doused her with ice water.

    I was terrified! I was so sure that his action was going to result in a horrible, violent temper-tantrum. But instead, the ice water consequence fit difficult child's logic seemed to make total sense to her!

    I am not sure if such a thing would work on your son (and personally, I would be scared to do it!)....hopefully you can find the right "button" to motivate him.

    Hang in there!