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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 147636" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Adrianne, good to see you on your own thread.</p><p></p><p>Something seems to be happening, there are three versions of this, so I'm only posting to this last one.</p><p></p><p>First - I hope the book really helps you, with both your kids. It's a fairly simple technique in principle, but it does require an almost 180 degree shift in parental thinking. I also think something else you will get from the book is a different perspective on why he is doing some of the things he is doing.</p><p></p><p>The Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) stuff, and any Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) stuff COULD also be related to Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form, such as Asperger's. What makes me sit up and take notice - the description of his rule-following. For example, the way he was reporting on the game, and also his refusal to go to the back of the line (since in his mind, HE had done nothing wrong, it was the other girl).</p><p>This meticulous attention to the rules and insistence that they be followed exactly - I've seen this in all of my kids but especially the younger three. difficult child 3 is extreme and got into a lot of strife at school with it. Teachers who didn't see the original encounter like an easy solution and will often deal with a problem by punishing all kids involved; the average kid will take it, but a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid will often have a tantrum at not being believed.</p><p></p><p>It was really good that he told you - that also fits with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) (and other things too). How honest is he? Part of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) is either an inability to tell lies, or at least being very bad at it (and always getting caught). difficult child 3 for example might try to lie by saying, "I didn't do it," but he could never give a false detailed explanation such as, "I didn't break the window with my ball, it was a car going past that threw up some gravel from its tyres and that broke the window," because he just can't invent anything complex, that fast. It also is not in his nature to even contemplate lying.</p><p></p><p>because he's so bad at it, difficult child 3 has learned to not even try to lie. Same with difficult child 1 - he used to try to lie but generally got caught. Even when he didn't get caught immediately, he felt so bad for 'breaking the rules' that he often ended up confessing anyway.</p><p></p><p>The rules - it's not always the OFFICIAL rules they follow, but the rules as they perceive them to be. For example, we told difficult child 3 that it is an important rule to not hit people. It was also a school rule. But difficult child 3 regularly observed that other kids were hitting (usually hitting him). But if difficult child 3 hit them back, he generally got caught and was punished. So in difficult child 3's mind the rule became, "hitting is OK for other people to do, but not for me. If I get hit I just have to put up with it." He got tot he point where he wouldn't even tell teachers that kids were hitting him, because in his mind the kids weren't breaking any rules. </p><p>He also learned that kids would start by calling him names or being rude to him, then they would start hitting. One day at a new school a boy pushed him aside rudely and then called him a mean name. difficult child 3 stood in front of the boy and said, "aren't you going to hit me now?" The boy, thinking difficult child 3 was aggressively challenging him, to his credit ran and got a teacher. It was the principal who then talked to difficult child 3, worked out what was happening and sorted the problem out. He later told me about the incident. difficult child 3 never mentioned it until I asked him, and he explained, "Kids always say mean things first and then start hitting. I just wanted him to hurry up and get it over with."</p><p></p><p>Defying authority - if it's Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), the problem here isn't defiance, it's not recognising authority in the first place. Again, difficult child 3 as an example - he was in his first year of school. A teacher (who should have known better, but we've had problems for years with this person) happened to be standing behind difficult child 3 at the instant she began to ring a hand bell, loudly. difficult child 3 never could cope with sudden loud noises and was startled and upset, so he turned round and shouted at her, "EXCUUUUUSE ME!!" </p><p>The teacher disdainfully replied with, "No, you're supposed to excuse me," but by then difficult child 3 had turned his back and walked away, leaving the teacher with considerable loss of face (to the glee of kids watching, who reported the incident to us later - this teacher isn't well-liked because she uses sarcasm a lot, she belittles and demeans kids).</p><p></p><p>difficult child 3 sees all people as equal. He is not awed by anybody, he was never nervous about talking to a teacher any more than talking to another student. He will walk up to a total stranger and begin talking to them. The downside of this - he learns the rules by observing, and ANYBODY who expects him to understand that some people should be shown more respect than others just goes over his head. And when the people demanding respect do not in turn show respect to him, he either ignores them or is rude to them (the previously-mentioned teacher, for example).</p><p></p><p>The trick we learned - we treat him with respect so we can then say, "I require the same level of respect from you, that we show to you." And generally, we get it (unless he's raging). We ignore rages during the rage and discuss it afterwards (Basket B).</p><p></p><p>It also means we help him develop his own rules so that they are also the rules we want him to follow anyway.</p><p></p><p>For example, going into his sister's room uninvited - we actually had to write that one down. "Your personal space is your bedroom. Your sister's personal space is her bedroom. A person is entitled to have privacy in their bedroom and ask someone to leave. You like being left alone when you request it - please show the same consideration to others."</p><p></p><p>Trying to get siblings to be polite to one another can be a nightmare. (I suspect with your son his sister isn't always polite with him). difficult child 3's sister needs to learn that he is likely to treat her the same way she treats him. In doing this, he's not deliberately doing "t it for tat", he's actually trying to follow what he thinks is an example set for him on how normal people behave.</p><p></p><p>Your son sounds like he's got a lot going on. Whether it's truly all connected to Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), whether there is an epilepsy component instead (or as well) or whether it's something completely different - you need an expert to sort this one out. But in the meantime, there are ways to manage and perhaps improve the way it all presents.</p><p></p><p>All we can do is work with what's workable. We change what we can, we ignore what can't be fixed. We don't discipline what the child cannot control. For example, difficult child 3 often says some hurtful things purely because he doesn't think before he speaks. We had just taken Grandma home to her house and were leaving, when she asked him, "Are you going without giving me a hug?"</p><p>He came back and gave her a lovely hug, saying, "How can I refuse a hug from my Grandma when she asks? which would have been lovely, if he hadn't continued with, "...because who knows when it might be for the last time?"</p><p>Luckily she understands him pretty well these days and wasn't offended, but as we walked back home difficult child 3 said to me, "I shouldn't have said that last bit, should I?"</p><p></p><p>To handle defiance - try to not see it as defiance, try to see it as extreme rule-following (his rules). To deal with it you need to prepare ahead of time and lay some groundwork. Also try to avoid ANYBODY getting heated. No ultimatums, not sarcasm, but always polite communication. Instead you say, "She wants to be alone in her room, she needs privacy. If you want to visit or stay in her room, you must have her permission. And if she wants to go into your room, she needs your permission. That is fair. Right now, she doesn't give you permission, so how about instead, you come and help me with something?" </p><p></p><p>Deflection. Distraction. Reasons. Calm. Balance. </p><p></p><p>The more you do this, the more he will come to see that you are working to help him stay calm. He will value this and begin to work with you even more. It can 'switch off' any tendency towards him becoming oppositional. No more clashing with him automatically opposing you on principle, because he's learning that he gets more of what he wants by working in partnership with you instead.</p><p></p><p>The book explains it well. If possible, either get all other family members to read it, or you explain it to them (which will help you really take the info on board as well).</p><p></p><p>As for getting a good handle on exactly what is wrong with him, others her can perhaps give you more idea of who to see, re assessments etc. A neuropsychologist gets recommended often.</p><p></p><p>Also, when you can, please do a sig for yourself (like mine, below) to explain in brief about the dynamics of your family. It saves you having to explain each time, gives us all a quick reference guide.</p><p></p><p>let us know how you get on.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 147636, member: 1991"] Adrianne, good to see you on your own thread. Something seems to be happening, there are three versions of this, so I'm only posting to this last one. First - I hope the book really helps you, with both your kids. It's a fairly simple technique in principle, but it does require an almost 180 degree shift in parental thinking. I also think something else you will get from the book is a different perspective on why he is doing some of the things he is doing. The Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) stuff, and any Sensory Integration Disorder (SID) stuff COULD also be related to Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in some form, such as Asperger's. What makes me sit up and take notice - the description of his rule-following. For example, the way he was reporting on the game, and also his refusal to go to the back of the line (since in his mind, HE had done nothing wrong, it was the other girl). This meticulous attention to the rules and insistence that they be followed exactly - I've seen this in all of my kids but especially the younger three. difficult child 3 is extreme and got into a lot of strife at school with it. Teachers who didn't see the original encounter like an easy solution and will often deal with a problem by punishing all kids involved; the average kid will take it, but a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kid will often have a tantrum at not being believed. It was really good that he told you - that also fits with Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) (and other things too). How honest is he? Part of Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) is either an inability to tell lies, or at least being very bad at it (and always getting caught). difficult child 3 for example might try to lie by saying, "I didn't do it," but he could never give a false detailed explanation such as, "I didn't break the window with my ball, it was a car going past that threw up some gravel from its tyres and that broke the window," because he just can't invent anything complex, that fast. It also is not in his nature to even contemplate lying. because he's so bad at it, difficult child 3 has learned to not even try to lie. Same with difficult child 1 - he used to try to lie but generally got caught. Even when he didn't get caught immediately, he felt so bad for 'breaking the rules' that he often ended up confessing anyway. The rules - it's not always the OFFICIAL rules they follow, but the rules as they perceive them to be. For example, we told difficult child 3 that it is an important rule to not hit people. It was also a school rule. But difficult child 3 regularly observed that other kids were hitting (usually hitting him). But if difficult child 3 hit them back, he generally got caught and was punished. So in difficult child 3's mind the rule became, "hitting is OK for other people to do, but not for me. If I get hit I just have to put up with it." He got tot he point where he wouldn't even tell teachers that kids were hitting him, because in his mind the kids weren't breaking any rules. He also learned that kids would start by calling him names or being rude to him, then they would start hitting. One day at a new school a boy pushed him aside rudely and then called him a mean name. difficult child 3 stood in front of the boy and said, "aren't you going to hit me now?" The boy, thinking difficult child 3 was aggressively challenging him, to his credit ran and got a teacher. It was the principal who then talked to difficult child 3, worked out what was happening and sorted the problem out. He later told me about the incident. difficult child 3 never mentioned it until I asked him, and he explained, "Kids always say mean things first and then start hitting. I just wanted him to hurry up and get it over with." Defying authority - if it's Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), the problem here isn't defiance, it's not recognising authority in the first place. Again, difficult child 3 as an example - he was in his first year of school. A teacher (who should have known better, but we've had problems for years with this person) happened to be standing behind difficult child 3 at the instant she began to ring a hand bell, loudly. difficult child 3 never could cope with sudden loud noises and was startled and upset, so he turned round and shouted at her, "EXCUUUUUSE ME!!" The teacher disdainfully replied with, "No, you're supposed to excuse me," but by then difficult child 3 had turned his back and walked away, leaving the teacher with considerable loss of face (to the glee of kids watching, who reported the incident to us later - this teacher isn't well-liked because she uses sarcasm a lot, she belittles and demeans kids). difficult child 3 sees all people as equal. He is not awed by anybody, he was never nervous about talking to a teacher any more than talking to another student. He will walk up to a total stranger and begin talking to them. The downside of this - he learns the rules by observing, and ANYBODY who expects him to understand that some people should be shown more respect than others just goes over his head. And when the people demanding respect do not in turn show respect to him, he either ignores them or is rude to them (the previously-mentioned teacher, for example). The trick we learned - we treat him with respect so we can then say, "I require the same level of respect from you, that we show to you." And generally, we get it (unless he's raging). We ignore rages during the rage and discuss it afterwards (Basket B). It also means we help him develop his own rules so that they are also the rules we want him to follow anyway. For example, going into his sister's room uninvited - we actually had to write that one down. "Your personal space is your bedroom. Your sister's personal space is her bedroom. A person is entitled to have privacy in their bedroom and ask someone to leave. You like being left alone when you request it - please show the same consideration to others." Trying to get siblings to be polite to one another can be a nightmare. (I suspect with your son his sister isn't always polite with him). difficult child 3's sister needs to learn that he is likely to treat her the same way she treats him. In doing this, he's not deliberately doing "t it for tat", he's actually trying to follow what he thinks is an example set for him on how normal people behave. Your son sounds like he's got a lot going on. Whether it's truly all connected to Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), whether there is an epilepsy component instead (or as well) or whether it's something completely different - you need an expert to sort this one out. But in the meantime, there are ways to manage and perhaps improve the way it all presents. All we can do is work with what's workable. We change what we can, we ignore what can't be fixed. We don't discipline what the child cannot control. For example, difficult child 3 often says some hurtful things purely because he doesn't think before he speaks. We had just taken Grandma home to her house and were leaving, when she asked him, "Are you going without giving me a hug?" He came back and gave her a lovely hug, saying, "How can I refuse a hug from my Grandma when she asks? which would have been lovely, if he hadn't continued with, "...because who knows when it might be for the last time?" Luckily she understands him pretty well these days and wasn't offended, but as we walked back home difficult child 3 said to me, "I shouldn't have said that last bit, should I?" To handle defiance - try to not see it as defiance, try to see it as extreme rule-following (his rules). To deal with it you need to prepare ahead of time and lay some groundwork. Also try to avoid ANYBODY getting heated. No ultimatums, not sarcasm, but always polite communication. Instead you say, "She wants to be alone in her room, she needs privacy. If you want to visit or stay in her room, you must have her permission. And if she wants to go into your room, she needs your permission. That is fair. Right now, she doesn't give you permission, so how about instead, you come and help me with something?" Deflection. Distraction. Reasons. Calm. Balance. The more you do this, the more he will come to see that you are working to help him stay calm. He will value this and begin to work with you even more. It can 'switch off' any tendency towards him becoming oppositional. No more clashing with him automatically opposing you on principle, because he's learning that he gets more of what he wants by working in partnership with you instead. The book explains it well. If possible, either get all other family members to read it, or you explain it to them (which will help you really take the info on board as well). As for getting a good handle on exactly what is wrong with him, others her can perhaps give you more idea of who to see, re assessments etc. A neuropsychologist gets recommended often. Also, when you can, please do a sig for yourself (like mine, below) to explain in brief about the dynamics of your family. It saves you having to explain each time, gives us all a quick reference guide. let us know how you get on. Marg [/QUOTE]
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