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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 147765" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Sara, your description of an alternative way of looking at "defiance" - you said it brilliantly, I was trying to convey that and feel I didn't get it right. You did.</p><p></p><p>Adrianne, the rule-following thing - the degree of flexibility of other kids' approach to rules was always a huge problem for difficult child 3, as well. it's just how kids play, in general - a group of kids in the playground can be playing a game such as cricket, with various small rules added such as "nobody gets out for a duck..." [ie no score] "... we let them have another go until they score, before they can be caught or bowled." Sometimes the rule hasn't actually been SAID by anyone, but if the boys regularly play cricket several times a week during the lunch break, they may have established these more informal rules some weeks or months ago and it's up to other kids to pick up on this by observation. part of social maturity which generally develops along similar lines with PCs, is being able to understand this almost instinctively. But not difficult child 3.</p><p></p><p>Added to this, the problems would arise when the other kids playing, many of whom would have resented a few kids allowing difficult child 3 to pick up the bat and join in, changed the rules so they could as soon as possible eliminate difficult child 3 from the game. difficult child 3 may have been watching, saw they let another boy continue to bat after being bowled or caught, "...because Jack hasn't scored yet, he can't be out for a duck." But then difficult child 3 gets bowled or caught, and t he kids declare him out, even though he hasn't scored.</p><p></p><p>A teacher comes over to intervene - from the teacher's point of view, the only rules he recognises are the standard rules of the game, and many top cricketers in World Test Matches get bowled for a duck, he tells difficult child 3.</p><p></p><p>It's THAT degree of subtlety that causes the problem, especially as a child IS BEGINNING to be aware of the rules changing and is managing to at least partly keep up - the kid is making real progress but it still goes against him. This sends the message - it is because you are you.</p><p></p><p>The rules can be that subtle, the rule shifts can also be non-verbal. A nod of a head, the wink of an eye, a grin, the roll of eyes - they all can communicate with PCs but often not with a difficult child who has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). Or those gestures may mean nothing.</p><p></p><p>difficult child 3 was playing chess with a good friend of his. Suddenly he accused his friend of cheating. From what I knew of this kid, who had stuck up for difficult child 3 at times when he could have been beaten up by other kids for doing so, I doubted he would cheat. So I broke up the game and took difficult child 3 outside. "Why do you think he is cheating?" I asked him.</p><p>"He was grinning at me, that's what kids do when they cheat."</p><p>I explained that is also what kids do when they are happy and enjoying themselves, and now difficult child 3 had spoiled the other boy's enjoyment of a good game with his friend.</p><p>We talked some more - what did he think his friend had been doing, that was cheating? difficult child 3 couldn't say. He just suspected, because of his poor understanding of body language, that his friend was doing something sneaky.</p><p></p><p>For difficult child 3, to identify a grin with someone about to take advantage of him - that was actually progress. The trouble was, he was indiscriminate about how he interpreted it. Luckily, his friend was VERY understanding. Unluckily, his friend's family moved out of the area a few months later.</p><p></p><p>Adrianne, before you dismiss Asperger's completely, have a look at the questionnaire on <a href="http://www.childbrain.com" target="_blank">www.childbrain.com</a>. Their Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire is informal, you can't use it to diagnose, but you can print the results and take them to a doctor for his opinion. If nothing else, regardless of the results they help gel ideas and concerns so the doctor can then address them.</p><p></p><p>You do sound like you're doing a lot of good things in how you interact with him. You've already identified the conditions under which he CAN take a different point of view on board, and you're using role play to explore alternative actions. You['re doing the right things. It can still take longer than you would think, but I don't think there's any way to move him along faster. If his brain is just not ready for the next stage of maturity, then it's just not ready. When he is - you will have helped him along as best you can.</p><p></p><p>With the teenage boy coming in - make sure he is well informed on difficult child's idiosyncrasies and also feels free to be open with you about any observations he has. Write stuff down, make notes, because you never know when something unusual but interesting can actually prove to be significant.</p><p></p><p>For example - as a baby, difficult child 3 seemed fascinated with trees. He might be unsettled, a bit fretful, I would walk outside and stand next to a very leafy tree in the late afternoon, and difficult child 3 would suddenly go quiet and his eyes would be fixed on the leaves of the tree. I was noticing this as soon as I brought him home from the hospital, at a week old.</p><p>Years later after the diagnosis I began to realise - I believe he was looking not at the leaves, but the flicker of the afternoon sunlight through the leaves. As the tree moved back and forth in the breeze it created an almost rhythmic flicker effect, similar to when an autistic child flaps his hand in front of his eyes. Yes, I believe my son was stimming, at a week old.</p><p>He's never flapped his hands, but even now he will watch leaves on the trees, water droplets falling, rain on the window and has always begged for those toys where sand, bubbles and droplets fall slowly through viscous liquid. He will watch the diffraction of light through a crystal and now he's 14 is actually studying the way crystals break up a low-powered laser beam and trying to analyse it.</p><p></p><p>Because I took notes, we've been able to go back and make sense out of what at the time seemed amazing coincidence. it's also helped me realise how active a baby's brain can be - it's constantly working hard to assimilate and understand the world around it. No wonder babies sleep so much - they must be exhausted!</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 147765, member: 1991"] Sara, your description of an alternative way of looking at "defiance" - you said it brilliantly, I was trying to convey that and feel I didn't get it right. You did. Adrianne, the rule-following thing - the degree of flexibility of other kids' approach to rules was always a huge problem for difficult child 3, as well. it's just how kids play, in general - a group of kids in the playground can be playing a game such as cricket, with various small rules added such as "nobody gets out for a duck..." [ie no score] "... we let them have another go until they score, before they can be caught or bowled." Sometimes the rule hasn't actually been SAID by anyone, but if the boys regularly play cricket several times a week during the lunch break, they may have established these more informal rules some weeks or months ago and it's up to other kids to pick up on this by observation. part of social maturity which generally develops along similar lines with PCs, is being able to understand this almost instinctively. But not difficult child 3. Added to this, the problems would arise when the other kids playing, many of whom would have resented a few kids allowing difficult child 3 to pick up the bat and join in, changed the rules so they could as soon as possible eliminate difficult child 3 from the game. difficult child 3 may have been watching, saw they let another boy continue to bat after being bowled or caught, "...because Jack hasn't scored yet, he can't be out for a duck." But then difficult child 3 gets bowled or caught, and t he kids declare him out, even though he hasn't scored. A teacher comes over to intervene - from the teacher's point of view, the only rules he recognises are the standard rules of the game, and many top cricketers in World Test Matches get bowled for a duck, he tells difficult child 3. It's THAT degree of subtlety that causes the problem, especially as a child IS BEGINNING to be aware of the rules changing and is managing to at least partly keep up - the kid is making real progress but it still goes against him. This sends the message - it is because you are you. The rules can be that subtle, the rule shifts can also be non-verbal. A nod of a head, the wink of an eye, a grin, the roll of eyes - they all can communicate with PCs but often not with a difficult child who has Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). Or those gestures may mean nothing. difficult child 3 was playing chess with a good friend of his. Suddenly he accused his friend of cheating. From what I knew of this kid, who had stuck up for difficult child 3 at times when he could have been beaten up by other kids for doing so, I doubted he would cheat. So I broke up the game and took difficult child 3 outside. "Why do you think he is cheating?" I asked him. "He was grinning at me, that's what kids do when they cheat." I explained that is also what kids do when they are happy and enjoying themselves, and now difficult child 3 had spoiled the other boy's enjoyment of a good game with his friend. We talked some more - what did he think his friend had been doing, that was cheating? difficult child 3 couldn't say. He just suspected, because of his poor understanding of body language, that his friend was doing something sneaky. For difficult child 3, to identify a grin with someone about to take advantage of him - that was actually progress. The trouble was, he was indiscriminate about how he interpreted it. Luckily, his friend was VERY understanding. Unluckily, his friend's family moved out of the area a few months later. Adrianne, before you dismiss Asperger's completely, have a look at the questionnaire on [url]www.childbrain.com[/url]. Their Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire is informal, you can't use it to diagnose, but you can print the results and take them to a doctor for his opinion. If nothing else, regardless of the results they help gel ideas and concerns so the doctor can then address them. You do sound like you're doing a lot of good things in how you interact with him. You've already identified the conditions under which he CAN take a different point of view on board, and you're using role play to explore alternative actions. You['re doing the right things. It can still take longer than you would think, but I don't think there's any way to move him along faster. If his brain is just not ready for the next stage of maturity, then it's just not ready. When he is - you will have helped him along as best you can. With the teenage boy coming in - make sure he is well informed on difficult child's idiosyncrasies and also feels free to be open with you about any observations he has. Write stuff down, make notes, because you never know when something unusual but interesting can actually prove to be significant. For example - as a baby, difficult child 3 seemed fascinated with trees. He might be unsettled, a bit fretful, I would walk outside and stand next to a very leafy tree in the late afternoon, and difficult child 3 would suddenly go quiet and his eyes would be fixed on the leaves of the tree. I was noticing this as soon as I brought him home from the hospital, at a week old. Years later after the diagnosis I began to realise - I believe he was looking not at the leaves, but the flicker of the afternoon sunlight through the leaves. As the tree moved back and forth in the breeze it created an almost rhythmic flicker effect, similar to when an autistic child flaps his hand in front of his eyes. Yes, I believe my son was stimming, at a week old. He's never flapped his hands, but even now he will watch leaves on the trees, water droplets falling, rain on the window and has always begged for those toys where sand, bubbles and droplets fall slowly through viscous liquid. He will watch the diffraction of light through a crystal and now he's 14 is actually studying the way crystals break up a low-powered laser beam and trying to analyse it. Because I took notes, we've been able to go back and make sense out of what at the time seemed amazing coincidence. it's also helped me realise how active a baby's brain can be - it's constantly working hard to assimilate and understand the world around it. No wonder babies sleep so much - they must be exhausted! Marg [/QUOTE]
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