Banned books

flutterby

Fly away!
Witz, I had a call like that, too, about 2 years ago. They were actually picking on Disney, although it didn't sound like that in the beginning. It was very...hmmm...devious the way they went about it.

When I finally understood what they were getting at, I told them that I don't buy into their philosophy and not to call me again. Of course, I got the shock and appalled and the "don't you care about your kids?"
 

muttmeister

Well-Known Member
Around here, there are always movements going on to try to get books banned at school. Usually they are not successful but they do make their mark because schools tend to buy books that will not cause trouble. I was a teacher for over 30 years and I have been in on some discussions where we were ordering books and, although most were not directly banned, there were times that they chose not to order something that might be perceived as controversial, just to avoid trouble. This has become a much bigger deal in recent years.
I even had one mother come and ask me to tear a couple of pages out of a book because it mentioned birth control (these were 5th and 6th graders). Basically I told her that I wasn't going to ruin a book and that if she felt that strongly maybe she'd better have a talk with her daughter if she saw her reading such book.
We've had lots of attempts to ban the Harry Potter books and any mention of evolution in any books brings some people crawling out from under the rock where they live to bombard the school with their opinions. And woe to any book that shows anybody in a less than traditional life style. There was even a move to ban the books about "Babar the Elephant" because he married his cousin, Celeste.
Sometimes I wonder what planet these people are from. I do understand parents wanting to have some say in their kids' education, but banning ideas seems so contrary to what our country was founded on that I really wonder if they understand anything about this country and how and why it was founded.
Since the discussion at your difficult child's school was during banned book week, I suspect they were trying to show the folly of banning books and ideas although there would be nothing wrong with following up by contacting the teacher.
I have a catalog with a T-shirt for sale that I actually thought of buying. It says, "I read banned books." Guess I should order it.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
I do understand parents wanting to have some say in their kids' education, but banning ideas seems so contrary to what our country was founded on that I really wonder if they understand anything about this country and how and why it was founded.

I'm pretty sure that they are sorely misinformed.
 

JJJ

Active Member
I'm in favor of school libraries banning books. Before everyone jumps on me, I am 99% opposed to public libraries banning books (there is no place for porn or violence-inducing hate lit). The difference is the ability of parents to review their children's reading material. If my child doesn't bring their library book home, I may have no idea what they are reading. If they are reading something that goes against every canon of our faith or may trigger some PTSD, I want to know so I can talk it through with them or even say 'no' until they are older. Schools should never be allowed to undermine parents.
 

flutterby

Fly away!
I understand where you're coming from, JJJ, but what if the book you want banned is a book another parent want's their child exposed to?

Certainly, you want to protect your children from anything that could trigger PTSD and I completely understand if you don't want your children reading something that goes against your faith. But, what about the other children?

I've raised my children to be exposed to a plethora of information and different life experiences, as long as it's age appropriate. I'm not saying that you aren't...I'm not wording things well. I guess I'm just saying that there are other factors to consider.

It would be nice if in the age of technology, every time a student swipes their card at the school library an email could be sent to the parents re: what book their child checked out and a summary of the book. It could be completely automated. Then, if you don't want your child to have that book you could take action.
 

KTMom91

Well-Known Member
As a serious book junkie, I'm hopping on this bandwagon.

School libraries should carry books that are age appropriate for their students. What's appropriate for a high school library is not appropriate for an elementary school library. Around here, the school librarians are really good at helping the kids find a book that meets their reading and maturity levels.

Several years ago, I got into a loud discussion (at church, no less) about the relative merits of The Lord of the Rings vs. Harry Potter. The other guy said HP was demonic, and was banned in his house, while TLOTR was good, because the man who wrote it was a Christian. I pointed out that both contained magical objects, both contained spells and incantations, both had mystical lands, and the only difference I could see was that HP was considerably more interesting that TLOTR.

Even if something is banned at the public library, Borders or Barnes & Noble will carry it. Librarians should make you want to read, not try to stop it. Personally, if someone tells me I can't read something, it makes me want to read it all the more.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
I have to say that I'm with Heather. If people don't want their children reading some books, and I assume that they are aware of which books or which type of books they don't want their children to read, I see no problem with saying "This is a book I don't want my child to read. She does not have my permission to check it out from the library." I don't think my child or grandchild should be restricted because someone else's child may react poorly.
 

flutterby

Fly away!
It can be even easier than that.

Our students have an ID card with their picture on it. This card is used for everything they do in school - library, media center, lunch, etc. I can go online and put money on the card for lunch. I can see what my child has purchased for lunch back to the beginning of the school year.

I can go online and check my child's grades and missing assignments. Most teachers have smartboards in their classrooms now and a lot of teachers just whisk what they did on the smartboard right onto their teacher page on the school website. Of course, those things depend on the teacher. Some textbooks are even online, so if they forget to bring their book home, they can view it online.

One of the days difficult child was sick, I forgot to call her off. At 10am, I got an automated phone call and, simultaneously, and email.

So, it really wouldn't be much work to have an automated system set up so that when a student swipes their card to check out a book, an email is sent to the parents. There could even be an option to flag a child's account so that the parent has to approve the book before it can be checked out.
 

GoingNorth

Crazy Cat Lady
I agree with Witz on this one. I don't force my religious, moral, or social beliefs down anyone elses' throats, and I don't deal well with the same being forced down my throat.

As I said, this is a family issue and not one that should should be forced in school. in my opinion, if you want your child to only be exposed to literature that is acceptable to a given religious or social belief, then you have the option of placing your child in a school oriented towards those beliefs.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I am in favor of being able to forbid my child to read a book. I am also aware that this makes them about 1000% more likely to find the book, sneak it and read it on the sly. One of my friend's dads did this. He put classic books on the very top of a tall bookshelf. Almost to the ceiling. Told the kids they were NOT allowed to read those books. Ever.

Within a year she and her brother read all 20 of the books on the shelf. Her dad put more up and they continued to "sneak" them. As an adult we all laugh at how effective it was.

The school automated system would be great. No school in our district has that ability, but I wish we did.

I just HATE the idea of any book being forbidden. I am TOTALLY against some of the racist garbage out there. I would fight to keep it out of schools because it is not age appropriate mostly. But I would not ban it from any public library simply because it is a very slippery slope. Who is to say that teh Bible or Koran or whatever would not be banned next/
 

flutterby

Fly away!
I realize that all schools do not have the technology set up that we do. And I realize that a lot of schools are budget strapped.

But, the technology is there if/when funding becomes available. I see it as a win-win.
 

klmno

Active Member
I think that is a great idea- they have ways to make sure lactose intolerant kids don't drink milk, yet they doon't stop having it available to the other kids. And as far as books- it reminds me that sometimes there are other reasons a child shouldn't read something. I worked with a guy who had an adopted son who was a difficult child and had learning disabilities. They were trying to decipher if he had autism, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS), or both. nyway, he was about 12-13 yo and would absolutely flip out and have bad nightmares for days if he ssaw anything pertaining to even a small fire. He could not watch that Disney movie that was animated several years ago- even though it was rated G because his parents knew the fire scene would trigger him. If we can go online and see what books the library owns and has available (that are not currently checked out), then there is a way where parents could go to their child's account and list the books that they don't want the chikld to check out and it would "refuse" it when the librarian swiped the card for the book.

PS, Susie, I love the idea of putting the classics on the top shelf and declaring them Off-limits!
 
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skeeter

New Member
I and my kids are all voracious readers. Put words in front of us, we read them, even if it's ingredient labels on catsup bottles. The kids, as I was, have always read way above grade level.
I always asked for a book list at the start of each year. I read any book I was unfamiliar with - NOT to ban it, but to be able to answer questions, point in other directions for more information, etc. While I had read other Steinbeck books, I hadn't read "Of Mice and Men" when it was going to be assigned to my oldest, so read it to help answer any questions he may have had on it.
I did "ban" books from my kids - but mainly due to them being what I consider trash. I absolutely refused to allow a Goosebumps book in my house! If my kids wanted to read about vampires and such - they could read Bram Stoker, Mary Shelley, HP Lovecraft or even my ancient collection of Dark Shadows books. Goosebumps were horrible books, terrible writing, identical plot, and in my mind not much better than a comic book. They had their place, but in no way for "points" or Accelerated Reader!
We read LOTR outloud to them and I still remember the youngest one reading the entire collection between 2nd and 3rd grade - and understanding and comprehending it all. They've read a lot of the "classics" and have my extensive collection of "real" science fiction (Arhur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov) to choose from.

I just cannot grasp truly "banning" books. If it's something so far out of your belief system, use it as a teaching tool. If you cannot "challenge" your belief system, there is something wrong with it.

That in no way means I don't understand not permitting a child to read a book that will have negative effects on them. My youngest has no problems with books, but I still (at age 18) make strong suggestions as to what he sees TV and movie wise. His imagination gets fixated on things and his mind gets locked onto things that others have no problems with. It's just easier to suggest he not see it to begin with.
 

donna723

Well-Known Member
Gonna jump in here too. I remember a while back going in to a large bookstore on a Saturday morning and finding it packed to the rafters with kids! You could hardly move in there for all the kids! I couldn't figure out what was going on until I heard someone mention that the latest Harry Potter book was coming out that day! And I thought to myself, "Hey, if Harry Potter can get that many kids that age away from their TV's, computers, video games and cell phones and actually sitting down reading a BOOK ... he's OK with me!" Give them enough credit at that age to be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality - they're not as dumb as you think!

When my son was in elementary school their school librarian was particularly inflexible and I went to war with her many times. She was so rigid on enforcing the 'rules' that she defeated the purpose. She had seperate shelves for each grade level and refused to let them check out any other books. My son is very intelligent and was reading on his own long before he started kindergarten, even a few (carefully selected) Stephen King short stories! In first and second grade the grade level books bored him silly and he refused to read them. He was sort of insulted and called them 'baby books'! I never really won that one, even after going to the principal. My solution was to take him to the public library who made a special exception for him and allowed him to have a card in his own name. And from then on he spent every Saturday morning having free reign of the public library, choosing books on astronomy or Ancient Egypt or whatever else interested him. He's turning 29 this in a few weeks and you still never see him without a book in his hands!

It makes me so sad to see books being banned that were always considered to be great literature, the real classics. "Tom Sawyer"? "Huckleberry Finn?" Oh, please! A smart teacher could take either book and turn it into a valuable history lesson as well as a fun book to read. Mark Twain's books are a perfectly accurate depiction of how things really were in those days and they show how far we really have come. Slavery is part of our country's history, it really happened, and you can't deny it by preventing kids from reading about it. And I bought my kids their own copy of "Catcher in the Rye" and both read it and loved it. I hardly think they would have been corrupted for life by reading a few four-letter words that they heard every day on the school bus!

There have been several attempted 'book bannings' here too, a few law suits filed. And they usually come from members of extremely conservative religious groups, and it's surprising to see what books they want banned and for what reasons - a bit like thinking that one of the Teletubbies was secreting promoting homosexuality because of the shape and color of his antenneas! Of course I wouldn't have wanted my kids reading outright trash either, but I firmly believe the decision of what books a child should be allowed to read belongs with the parents.

Oh, and as a P.S. ... When my daughter and sister in law were furnishing my grandsons nursery before he was born, they bought a dresser with a big hutch with several shelves. Then they hit every book store and library sale they could find and filled up those shelves with every book a kid could ever want to read. He had all the classic kids books even before he was born, INCLUDING his very own copies of "Tom Sawyer" and "Huckleberry Finn".
 
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Mattsmom277

Active Member
I am beyond an avid book reader. I am ferocious. I live through books. I explore, challenge my mind, find joy, anger, laughter, love, rage, a range of emotions, all through stories. I escaped a crazy childhood that led to PTSD via the world of books. There wasn't anything I wouldn't read. I am positive as a child I read things that many adults find contraversial and wouldn't themselves read. It did not warp me. It did not taint me. It did lead to me being a free thinker, it opened my mind and my world. I advocate the same now for my children. Other than blatant pornography, there isn't anything I would stop my children from reading that I can imagine, if it held their interest. I have helped them understand that written text is not law, it is a writers expressions and to be taken as such. They get it. It truly isn't complicated. They have such a vast knowledge base via books that I wouldn't prevent them for much, if anything.

That being said, banning books that are age appropriate is beyond my scope of understanding. I try to be respectful but I read about ONE parent objecting to a well read, well loved, fantastic book of what I call "literature" recently and the book being removed from the reading list at a school. One parent? I was stunned. I'm still stunned. Personally in that school system I as a parent would have fought for that book for my child if it was removed from the reading list for that particular reason.

I don't understand what closes peoples minds to open ideas. Why such a fear of different thoughts? What is to be feared by free thinkers? What a boring, gray colored world it would be if this was a rampant practice. Conformity on that type of scale would frighten me. I bet most kids, hearing a book is banned, find the book another way. Forbidden fruit and all!
 

DazedandConfused

Well-Known Member
In California, children have a right to privacy when it comes to accessing books from the library; regardless if it is a public, or school, library. If I have a parent come in and ask me what books their child has checked out, by law I cannot tell them. In fact, the library software doesn't allow me access to a student's check out history beyond the last book they checked out.

The only time I can reveal the title of a book is when it is overdue, or if a student has lost it. Then, I have to send a notice to the parent requesting its' return or payment.

As a elementary librarian, I attempt to offer as wide a variety of reading material as I possibly can (and that money will allow). The primary influence is what do my students most want to read? What gets them hooked? The vast majority of my students (mostly poor ELLs) first visit to ANY library is at school, so I put a tremendous amount of effort to make it exciting, fun, and relevant to their lives. They like "edgy" books that some people would consider "trash"; books about aliens, monsters, vampires, and pretty much anything that is strange and unusual. They also love the Wimpy Kids series and everyone is highly anticipating the 4th in the series due out October 12. I also introduce them to classics that have been around for years: Beverly Cleary's Ramona series and Judy Blume's books.

I read a lot of "trash" when I was a kid (I LOVED Mad Magazine and comic books), which nurtured a love for reading and provided a segue to much more challenging material. My parents let me read just about anything. In elementary school, I read ALL of Walter Farley's Black Stallion books and Jean MacDonald's Mrs. Piggle Wiggle series. I read the Godfather when I was 12. I read Jacqueline Suzanne (Valley of the Dolls and Once is Not Enough) when I was 13. I read Lisa: Bright and Dark (about a girl with mental illness). I read all kinds of racy stuff which provided life lessons on the dangers of behaving that way myself.


I don't "ban" any books. I do make informed decisions about what is appropriate reading material that elementary students should have access to. I do remember one book getting pass me because I had to order a huge amount of books in a short time and just couldn't review them all. A student checked it out and had it over the weekend. On Monday, she brought it back teary-eyed and with an angry note from her Mom. Well, the book had a graphic (for a 10 year old) rape scene. I did remove the book from the collection and offered it to our city's HS library.

I've only had one parent request their child not check out certain books. I informed that parent that the matter was ultimately between them and their child. Though, I would remind the student of the parents wishes, by law I cannot deny access to certain books in the library because a parent finds it objectionable. I will not police access to library books because of subject matter.

I had one little girl who would not check out any books with Spongebob because her Dad "hates him and thinks he's a bad example". I chuckled to myself because this Dad (who I have met) ought to go take a good look in the mirror to see a bad example. SpongeBob is the least of this dude's worries.

Anyway, off my soapbox. It is heartening to me to see the variety of, and passionate, opinions on this matter.
 

JJJ

Active Member
I think there is a huge difference between a school library, a public library and a bookstore. A bookstore is a commercial business and they can sell any legal materials. A public library is open to all -- adults and children and as such should have a very eclectic selection. A school library carries with it the weight of the school. My children have come home with horribly inappropriate materials from the school -- my 1st grader with a comic book with a drawing of a naked woman "fighting" with two men and my 7th grader with a book that is basically a gun catalog. Now, if any child copied a picture from either book onto their folder, they would be looking at a detention or a suspension. If the material would be inappropriate if the child wrote/drew it, why is it in the library???

I am very liberal. My kids read the kiddie trash - Wimpy Kids, Spongebob, etc. And they have read many of the books on the 'banned books' list including Harry Potter, Wrinkle in Time, Heather Has Two Mommies, etc.

The disrespect for parental authority shown by many public schools enrages me. They want to know why they have more and more difficult children in the schools every year. If they continue to undermine parents and care more about the 'freedom to read anything' rather than reinforcing respect for your parents and learning to read and write correctly, they will turn out a generation of difficult children.

As far as 'what if your standards are different than someone else", I have usually been in the position of being the more liberal one in the conversation but the main issues that I fall on the 'ban it' side are sex and violence. Honestly, why does any 6-year old need to read about sex? And what 14-year old needs to know the names of every semi-automatic weapon ever made?

People who know me in real life are always surprised that I am on the side of keeping the collections of school libraries limited. It isn't really "banning" a book, it is using good judgment in determining which books should a school supply for children.
 

tiredmommy

Well-Known Member
I get your point JJJ. Duckie's school has been in the process of updating their collection for the last few years so the principal formed a school-parent committee to review potential purchases and discards. The only rules is that nothing would be labeled as banned because she didn't want to set the precedent in this school. Rather, something could be rejected as inappropriate for the ages and grade levels that the particular school serves.

What happens in our school is that the classroom teachers closely monitor what the children check out. They literally look at the titles the student is in line to checkout and ok or reject it (too advanced, not advanced enough, etc). It seems to work well with kids getting books at the appropriate reading level and the subject matter isn't too out there. As a matter of fact, Duckie's kindergarten teacher was concerned about her checking out "The Ten Best Things About Barney" because the teacher didn't know if the subject matter would upset a six year old Duckie. However, Duckie explained that a friend was sad about their pet goldfish dying recently and she wanted to be able to help him feel better. She brought home the book and we read it together through tears.

I think my biggest concern about banning books is that the criteria to ban can easily get bigger and bigger. I think we can all agree that sex in elementary school and how to build a bomb in secondary school should be off limits... but where will it stop? Will some parents continue to push a personal agenda?

We have recently had our secondary sex ed curriculum altered to be abstinence-based. Now, I have no problem with abstinence since I'm the mom of a young girl. Really. But I also know intuitively that it will not be enough or the appropriate sex education or pregnancy prevention program for many of my community's youth. It's not realistic to these kid's lives. The curriculum change has now hand-tied the adults that these interact with the most throughout the day. They can't say "talk to your parents about getting on birth control". It's a shame. And I think of banning books in the same light.

It's really banning ideas, concepts, and new ways of looking at life. It's banning seeing the world from another perspective or banning seeing the world outside our windows. The potential for abuse is too great for banning to be an accepted practice.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
When I was growing up, my mother banned comics (of any kind) from the house. I did get access to the comics in the Sunday paper, but tat was it. The fear was, that we would forget about reading 'real' books and immerse ourselves only in reading comics.

The weird thing is - comics have been vital for difficult child 3 because they have more obvious social instruction in them, it's easier for him to understand the social context described when it's drawn there for him.

Witz, I recognise that some people wanting to ban Twilight are doing so because they claim it to be demonic (or whatever, along those lines) but there has been considerable discussion about this very topic here in Australia (on breakfast TV) and a much stronger reason claimed (by spokespersons who I know do not have a religious barrow to push) that Twilight is promoting teen sexuality to kids who really are too young for it. We're finding the books in primary school liibraries (that is kids up to 11 or 12 years old) and parents are getting upset about this. It has become a fad and when it is made so readily available to these younger kids, they will read it if it's there. I also agree that 'adulitfying' young kids (especially young pre-pubescent girls) is unhealthy.

However, banning books can sometimes only make them more desirable.

I have at times had to take a stand on what difficult child 3 is exposed to in mainstream. For example, he was 8 years old when his class were watching Roald Dahl's "The Witches". While other kids his age had no problem with such a film, we knew difficult child 3 couldn't handle it. He also didn't want to watch it, for him it would have been like making a five year old sit through a screening of "The Exorcist". So I got him excused from watching the film. It was another couple of years with gradual exposure, that he was able to watch the film. We actually had to show him the ending first so he knew that it came out alright (in the film). Personally, it was a lot longer before I could let difficult child 3 read the book and even then he censored it in his own miind to give it the ending in the film. Personally, I think Roald Dahl's mind was a bit of a worry... same with JK Rowling. Not for the 'witchcraft' stuff, but the apparently accepted bullying and nastiness that the school seems to not only allow, it enables. The one really good thing I can say about the Harry Potter series - it has got kids reading more and (hopefully) moving on to other, better, books. The 'witchcraft' content is totally fictional (in my opinion, not terribly well written, either) and not worth any sort of religious ban - it's superficial and derivative. But no threat, except perhaps to literary standards. I will say - she has improved considerably as a writer, over the series.

Perhaps what I have resented most about Harry Potter - my vow as a parent to read EVERYTHING my kids read, so I know what they are reading and can discuss it with them. And because I made that committment (to myself) I have had to grit my teeth through most of those books.

But I use it all. Having read the stuff (not just Harry Potter, but anything else I felt I could pick to pieces) I often use chunks of text (with attribution, of course) in any writing workshops I'm teaching, to demonstrate what NOT to do... and my worst examples do NOT come from Harry Potter.

Society shifts over time. The example of Huck Finn is a classic example, especially with the (then) accepted use of words no longer considered acceptable. When reading these books it MUST be remembered, that the times in which tey were written were different and there was no intention to offend, in ways that today would be offensive. We have similar examples in Aussie culture - not just certain words, but images and stereotypes which were considered terms of endearment 30 years ago, are now deeply offensive today. The concept of "walkabout" for example - Evonne Cawley (nee Goolagong) was a brilliant tennis player in her prime, of Aboriginal origins. Her coach, in an interview back in the 70s (I think it was) described her momentary lapses of concentration in her early training years as "going walkabout". He said he used the term affectionately, as 'homage to her Aboriginal heritage". But to say the same thing these days under the exact same circumstances would be considered racist.

WHen I was in senior high school (early 70s) we were studying Hamlet. Most of us in the classroom had the Dept of Ed textbook issue. Some had brought their own copies from home. In class we would be assigned various roles according to the whim of the teacher that day, and we would read aloud around the classroom. Thus it was that we discovered that the Dept of Ed issues had been censored - some 'racy bits' had been deleted. One of our classmates (perhaps the most sexually uptight of the lot of us) was reading her assigned passage aloud and found herself reading to shocked gasps and comments of, "That's not in MY copy!"

This was not uncommon. Our teacher told us to ignore the discrepancies and move on; those bits would not be in the final exams so don't worry about them. Naturally, we all rushed home to check our own parental copies of the classics...

An Aussie TV series set in a convent school of the 60s ("Brides of Christ" - a brilliant series) showed one nun teaching a class from "Romeo & Juliet" when a more senior nun overherd the pssage being read (something about "beast with two backs" and what does it mean) and the older teacher instructed the girls to rule lines through the offending passages, and move on.

Censoring Shakespeare... this was not restricted to religious orders. Our school was secular and state-based, they published their own censored copies and made them official. I think that qualifies as institutionalised censorship.

And yet - we studied Huck Finn at the same time as Hamlet. Because although it uses certain words now considered to be racist, it is NOT a racist book, especially if you consider when, how and why it was written.

Marg
 

DazedandConfused

Well-Known Member
I think there is a huge difference between a school library, a public library and a bookstore. A bookstore is a commercial business and they can sell any legal materials. A public library is open to all -- adults and children and as such should have a very eclectic selection. A school library carries with it the weight of the school.

I agree with you that school vs. public libraries are quite different situations. I would not have such books that you have mentioned in my school's library. I believe them to be inappropriate reading matierial. I think you make a good point about the consequences of drawing vs. pictures in the book. However, if a kid gets a book on guns from a public library, should the the librarian deny that child access to it? Would the librarian then have to use his or her judgement on the child's motivation and reasons for getting the book?

I just had a kid the other day ask if I had a book about "weapons". I ask him exactly what he means. He meant guns, knifes, etc. "Uh..NO" was my response. Nor will I authorize such purchases.

sucThe disrespect for parental authority shown by many public schools enrages me. They want to know why they have more and more difficult children in the schools every year. If they continue to undermine parents and care more about the 'freedom to read anything' rather than reinforcing respect for your parents and learning to read and write correctly, they will turn out a generation of difficult children.

Huh??? Schools and their libraries are responsible for turning kids in difficult children? Did I actually read that??

If freedom to read anything turned a kid into a difficult child I would be the Queen Mother of difficult children.

:peaceful:
 
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