I previously mentioned in my thread about suspecting ADHD and ODD that my recently turned 8-year old has night time bedwetting issues and does No. 2 sometimes during the day. I just was wondering if any of you have had this problem and how it was solved. I have tried medications regarding the bedwetting on two occasions but it did not work. Her pullup was still wet when she woke up in the morning. I tell her not to drink anything at night, but she doesn't listen to me and sneaks things to drink into her bedroom. (I find the empty glasses or bottles in the morning.) As to doing No. 2 in her underwear, this has been intermittent since its onset in September. I don't understand what is going on with her with regard to this. She hides her dirty underwear for me to find under the bed or behind her dresser. Her developmental pediatrician and psychologist say bedwetting is common in many children. The bedwetting thing is genetic they tell me. I know know of no one on my side of the family that had this. Her doctors say she will outgrow the bedwetting. Meanwhile they told me that if she does No. 2, that she should clean her own underwear and that will eventually make her stop. Well, she has cleaned her underwear a few times already. I just don't understand this. She is 8 years old and knows where the bathroom is. Why is she doing No. 2 in her pants? Is it part of being defiant and wanting attention? (daughter's psychologist thinks she wants the attention.) Is she acting like her 2-year old brother now so she can get more attention from me?
Bedwetting Issues
- Thread starter Arielle
- Start date
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
I would seriously suspect sensory issues. Perhaps she doesn't realize when she has to go. Are you satisfied with her diagnosis? in my opinion no child who is eight years old, unless very mentally ill, would soil his or her pants on purpose just to be defiant.
Marguerite
Active Member
I'm with MWM. WHY do psychologists keep insisting that what our kids do is calculated attention-seeking? I get so cranky about it... because so often, far from it being meticulous calculated behaviour, it's more likely to be impulsive and thoughtless - because frankly, THAT is more like what our kids really are.
I have VERY good and detailed memories of my childhood. I can remember toilet training. I got the knack of it without too much trouble, but I did NOT like the feel of the potty. However, it still felt safer than sitting over that very big, scary hole and feeling like I would fall in. And the sound it made when it was flushed - it was scary, I didn't want to be in the room.
What was also weird - having to perform 'on cue' - my body had to learn to 'let go' when I sat on the toilet, part of me wanted to not go because it felt 'wrong'. I had to keep telling myself, "this is how it is done." Watching my mother helped me understand this better, too.
But I still had accidents sometimes, especially if I was caught up in a game outside and didn't want to interrupt halfway. I remember one time (with No 2) I was running and playing with friends at a neighbour's house (they had an outside toilet, there really was no excuse) and I simply waited too long. I ran down the yard but didn't quite get there in time. I was so embarrassed, that I did my best to clean up by myself - I would have been about 6, not quite sure.
These things happen. I remember needing to get used to my body cues, and to also learn to listen to my body's warning signals. If I ignored my body, I paid for it.
The biggest shame came from my sister and any friends I was with, rather than my mother. She was always matter-of-fact about it, telling me to put my soiled clothing in the laundry. I was expected to clean up within reason, to not make more work for my mother due to my own carelessness.
Maybe my memory helped me understand my own kids better, but it still wasn't an easy road with them - they were VERY different from my own experiences.
The girls toilet-trained quickly and easily. With ALL the kids, as they were learning, they also had to learn to help with practical management of their own laundry. There was no shame in having a wet bed, but I did ask them to help me strip the bed, and re-make it. We'd work as a team, it wasn't a shame thing. On washing days I would also ask them to strip their beds and help me make them up again with clean, dry sheets right off the clothesline. So getting them to change their beds when wet was more an extension of that practicality, rather than punishment. I mean, they couldn't leave it there, could they?
Similarly, with soiled pants. I would help at least with strategy - we would take the pants off in the shower recess, put the pants in a bucket, hose the child down with the hand-held shower (an older child could wash him/herself off and preserve modesty if they wished) and then inspect everything before they left the shower recess. I would put my hand inside a plastic bag and pick up any 'bits' for disposal, and in doing so teach them how to do it for themselves. The soiled clothing would be by now in the bucket which we would half-fill with water and hand-wash gently to get it to a state of only stained, not lumpy as well. We would then together take the dirty clothing to the laundry and put it in the washing machine.
No shame involved, as far away from shame as we could get. It was a no-fault situation, but no fault with still the need to deal with it.
Soiled clothing that has been left, needs extra treatment. I would be teaching her how to deal with it - first a soak to rehydrate it, then hand-wash (you can use a plumber's helper to get a mini washing machine agitator effect) before setting up the washing machine. I do not think 8 years old is too young to learn how to load the washing machine.
It's the same for me with difficult child 1's dirty work shirts now - because he doesn't change them often enough, they need special treatment to get them clean. Because it is at least partly due to his slovenly ways that more work has been made for SOMEONE, I make HIM clean them. Why should I have more work to do, simply because he has been too inconsiderate to change his clothes more often?
That's about cleaning. How to fix the problem of lying about it?
Use your nose, regularly. If she has soiled herself, it is unlikely she will have completely deodorised herself, unless she changed everything else she was wearing as well.
Sit down with her and talk about it - hiding the evidence only compounds the problem and makes inevitable discovery more certain and more unpleasant. The better way to cover up the problem is for her to deal with the evidence more appropriately, by disguising it as ordinary laundry. in other words, if she rinses the undies herself, and puts them in a bucket in the laundry, then goes through whatever washing regime (for herself) that you organise between you, the result will be no added workload for you - the aim here.
Make sure there is a bucket for her to put the soiled pants into. Disposable gloves available may make it easier for her to do this. She needs to be drilled in how to clean herself up as well, including a thorough wet wash (we use nappy wash cloths, even for adults in this house) followed by some sort of barrier, such as a rub with olive oil (it stops the tail burning from the caustic waste products, the merest remaining trace of which can cause significant discomfort and make the problem worse).
If she already has a sanctioned hiding place for 'the evidence', then maybe she will stop hiding them from you. She needs to understand that YOU ARE ON HER SIDE. This is a problem for a surprising number of people across all intelligences, classes, races, etc. It happens to good people, it happens to bad people. Teach her that it's just one of those things - what matters more is not what is happening, it's how you deal with it.
The bedwetting - from experience, limiting bedtime fluids doesn't work. Doesn't make any difference, in fact. What is SUPPOSED to happen as the brain matures, is our bodies learn to slow down the kidneys overnight as we sleep, so any urine produced is done over a longer period and is more concentrated. Think about how much you 'go' during the day, over an 8 hour period. Now think about how you could hold that in overnight - what you pass in the morning is generally far less. OK, you drink water during the day, but not THAT much.
Children's brains take longer to switch the kidneys into overnight mode. ADD kids seem to take longer still, plus the mental effort of their days seems to make them sleep all the more soundly. A bad mix.
difficult child 3 took a long time to be bladder-trained at night. we tried restricting fluids at night, but he would almost sleep-walk to get to water from wherever he could get it. WHen we found he was getting a lot of water, we also found the bed was no wetter than when we successfully restricted intake. Then when night after night he would get out of bed to refill his 1 litre water bottle, then DRAIN IT and fill it again, without subsequently flooding the bed, we knew we had broken a myth. He still sleeps with several bottles of water near his bed, so he doesn't have to keep going to the bathroom to refill the bottles. And these days, he's dry in the mornings, despite seemingly being waterlogged. His brain has matured so he's gone from permanently damp to having the capacity of Hoover Dam.
What you CAN try - wake her and take her to the toilet just as YOU are heading for bed. We used to call this "toilet time" with our kids. We'd wake them with, "Come one, time to go to the toilet, it's toilet time."
"But I don't wanna, I don't need to..." (assuming they were coherent at all)
"I don't care, it's toilet time. Time to just sit, and try. Empty out what you can. As soon as you've done that, we can both get to bed."
It worked well, especially for the more easy child of our kids. And even the worst of them, it made a difference.
Other things we tried - we put a liner on the bed, under the bottom sheet. We DID NOT use plastic sheet, which feels awful and makes a horrible crinkly noise (I well remember having to sleep with a plastic-lined bed, and I hated it). We use vinyl instead - it's quiet, plus being heavier, it stays put better.
In desperate situations, we'd sometimes 'toilet time' at 3 am, or 5 am.
We used rewards - "Wow! A dry bed! We have extra time now we don't have to do the extra laundry, let's play a quick game!"
Keep the kid warm at night - being cold makes your kidneys shed a lot more liquid (for any of us, at any age).
Pull-ups often don't allow the child to feel wet and so they don't develop the conditioned response like they should. So get her to wear undies to bed, either alone (no Pull-Ups) or inside the Pull-Ups.
If you want to really work on toilet training, save it for warmer weather. And have lots of spare pairs of undies.
Good luck - she WILL get there.
Marg
I have VERY good and detailed memories of my childhood. I can remember toilet training. I got the knack of it without too much trouble, but I did NOT like the feel of the potty. However, it still felt safer than sitting over that very big, scary hole and feeling like I would fall in. And the sound it made when it was flushed - it was scary, I didn't want to be in the room.
What was also weird - having to perform 'on cue' - my body had to learn to 'let go' when I sat on the toilet, part of me wanted to not go because it felt 'wrong'. I had to keep telling myself, "this is how it is done." Watching my mother helped me understand this better, too.
But I still had accidents sometimes, especially if I was caught up in a game outside and didn't want to interrupt halfway. I remember one time (with No 2) I was running and playing with friends at a neighbour's house (they had an outside toilet, there really was no excuse) and I simply waited too long. I ran down the yard but didn't quite get there in time. I was so embarrassed, that I did my best to clean up by myself - I would have been about 6, not quite sure.
These things happen. I remember needing to get used to my body cues, and to also learn to listen to my body's warning signals. If I ignored my body, I paid for it.
The biggest shame came from my sister and any friends I was with, rather than my mother. She was always matter-of-fact about it, telling me to put my soiled clothing in the laundry. I was expected to clean up within reason, to not make more work for my mother due to my own carelessness.
Maybe my memory helped me understand my own kids better, but it still wasn't an easy road with them - they were VERY different from my own experiences.
The girls toilet-trained quickly and easily. With ALL the kids, as they were learning, they also had to learn to help with practical management of their own laundry. There was no shame in having a wet bed, but I did ask them to help me strip the bed, and re-make it. We'd work as a team, it wasn't a shame thing. On washing days I would also ask them to strip their beds and help me make them up again with clean, dry sheets right off the clothesline. So getting them to change their beds when wet was more an extension of that practicality, rather than punishment. I mean, they couldn't leave it there, could they?
Similarly, with soiled pants. I would help at least with strategy - we would take the pants off in the shower recess, put the pants in a bucket, hose the child down with the hand-held shower (an older child could wash him/herself off and preserve modesty if they wished) and then inspect everything before they left the shower recess. I would put my hand inside a plastic bag and pick up any 'bits' for disposal, and in doing so teach them how to do it for themselves. The soiled clothing would be by now in the bucket which we would half-fill with water and hand-wash gently to get it to a state of only stained, not lumpy as well. We would then together take the dirty clothing to the laundry and put it in the washing machine.
No shame involved, as far away from shame as we could get. It was a no-fault situation, but no fault with still the need to deal with it.
Soiled clothing that has been left, needs extra treatment. I would be teaching her how to deal with it - first a soak to rehydrate it, then hand-wash (you can use a plumber's helper to get a mini washing machine agitator effect) before setting up the washing machine. I do not think 8 years old is too young to learn how to load the washing machine.
It's the same for me with difficult child 1's dirty work shirts now - because he doesn't change them often enough, they need special treatment to get them clean. Because it is at least partly due to his slovenly ways that more work has been made for SOMEONE, I make HIM clean them. Why should I have more work to do, simply because he has been too inconsiderate to change his clothes more often?
That's about cleaning. How to fix the problem of lying about it?
Use your nose, regularly. If she has soiled herself, it is unlikely she will have completely deodorised herself, unless she changed everything else she was wearing as well.
Sit down with her and talk about it - hiding the evidence only compounds the problem and makes inevitable discovery more certain and more unpleasant. The better way to cover up the problem is for her to deal with the evidence more appropriately, by disguising it as ordinary laundry. in other words, if she rinses the undies herself, and puts them in a bucket in the laundry, then goes through whatever washing regime (for herself) that you organise between you, the result will be no added workload for you - the aim here.
Make sure there is a bucket for her to put the soiled pants into. Disposable gloves available may make it easier for her to do this. She needs to be drilled in how to clean herself up as well, including a thorough wet wash (we use nappy wash cloths, even for adults in this house) followed by some sort of barrier, such as a rub with olive oil (it stops the tail burning from the caustic waste products, the merest remaining trace of which can cause significant discomfort and make the problem worse).
If she already has a sanctioned hiding place for 'the evidence', then maybe she will stop hiding them from you. She needs to understand that YOU ARE ON HER SIDE. This is a problem for a surprising number of people across all intelligences, classes, races, etc. It happens to good people, it happens to bad people. Teach her that it's just one of those things - what matters more is not what is happening, it's how you deal with it.
The bedwetting - from experience, limiting bedtime fluids doesn't work. Doesn't make any difference, in fact. What is SUPPOSED to happen as the brain matures, is our bodies learn to slow down the kidneys overnight as we sleep, so any urine produced is done over a longer period and is more concentrated. Think about how much you 'go' during the day, over an 8 hour period. Now think about how you could hold that in overnight - what you pass in the morning is generally far less. OK, you drink water during the day, but not THAT much.
Children's brains take longer to switch the kidneys into overnight mode. ADD kids seem to take longer still, plus the mental effort of their days seems to make them sleep all the more soundly. A bad mix.
difficult child 3 took a long time to be bladder-trained at night. we tried restricting fluids at night, but he would almost sleep-walk to get to water from wherever he could get it. WHen we found he was getting a lot of water, we also found the bed was no wetter than when we successfully restricted intake. Then when night after night he would get out of bed to refill his 1 litre water bottle, then DRAIN IT and fill it again, without subsequently flooding the bed, we knew we had broken a myth. He still sleeps with several bottles of water near his bed, so he doesn't have to keep going to the bathroom to refill the bottles. And these days, he's dry in the mornings, despite seemingly being waterlogged. His brain has matured so he's gone from permanently damp to having the capacity of Hoover Dam.
What you CAN try - wake her and take her to the toilet just as YOU are heading for bed. We used to call this "toilet time" with our kids. We'd wake them with, "Come one, time to go to the toilet, it's toilet time."
"But I don't wanna, I don't need to..." (assuming they were coherent at all)
"I don't care, it's toilet time. Time to just sit, and try. Empty out what you can. As soon as you've done that, we can both get to bed."
It worked well, especially for the more easy child of our kids. And even the worst of them, it made a difference.
Other things we tried - we put a liner on the bed, under the bottom sheet. We DID NOT use plastic sheet, which feels awful and makes a horrible crinkly noise (I well remember having to sleep with a plastic-lined bed, and I hated it). We use vinyl instead - it's quiet, plus being heavier, it stays put better.
In desperate situations, we'd sometimes 'toilet time' at 3 am, or 5 am.
We used rewards - "Wow! A dry bed! We have extra time now we don't have to do the extra laundry, let's play a quick game!"
Keep the kid warm at night - being cold makes your kidneys shed a lot more liquid (for any of us, at any age).
Pull-ups often don't allow the child to feel wet and so they don't develop the conditioned response like they should. So get her to wear undies to bed, either alone (no Pull-Ups) or inside the Pull-Ups.
If you want to really work on toilet training, save it for warmer weather. And have lots of spare pairs of undies.
Good luck - she WILL get there.
Marg
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Psychologists insistence that everything is "manipulative" is why I tell people to see a neuropsychologist. They at least do intensive testing. Psychologists pretty much parrot theories from books. The other thing they tend to say is that it's the fault of the parent. I personally would look way beyond a psychologist and see a neuropsychologist or a Child Psychiatrist (with the MD). As one with bipolar, I"ve had so many psychologists as a prerequisite for getting my medications, and I didn't get much out of most of them. A cognitive behavioral therapist combined with my medications was the only one I felt made any sense. Of course, this isn't the question of the poster either. But I don't know why she wasn't told it could and often is sensory.
TerryJ2
Well-Known Member
We still have bedwetting issues, largely tied to my son's allergies, and in particular, to wheat and milk products. Pizza=bedwetting. As far as encopresis, he used to hide his underwear, too. I think most of it was the ADHD stuff--he just didn't want to stop what he was doing and take a break to go to the bathroom. He quit hiding his underwear after we stripped his room--furniture, lightbulbs and all--and my friends who helped me saw what he had done. Hmm. Peer pressure?
Good luck.
Good luck.
Thank you everyone for your in-depth responses. daughter claims she sleeps too deeply at night to know and feel when she has to go pee. As for soiling her pants, she always comes up with some lame excuse.
I have not been happy with what the psychologist and developmental pediatrician have said with respect to soiling her pants. (Frankly, I have an appointment on March 10 with the Developmental Pediatrician and do not see the point of going.) They simply say it is behavioral or laziness to go to the bathroom and also simply to get my attention. I do want to see a child psychiatrist, but husband is not on board with this yet. I don't know how to convince him. The psychologist met with him privately on Saturday, but I don't feel from the sketchy info husband gave me that she was able to convince him. He still feels that getting a tutor to do homework and spend time with daughter will change her bad behavior. How do you get through a brick wall?
Bottom line is that I want help for my daughter, and with husband creating a roadblock, I don't see how that is possible at this point?
P.S. Anyone that has had bedwetting issues, can you advise if bedwetting alarms are worth purchasing? Do they solve the bedwetting problems?
I have not been happy with what the psychologist and developmental pediatrician have said with respect to soiling her pants. (Frankly, I have an appointment on March 10 with the Developmental Pediatrician and do not see the point of going.) They simply say it is behavioral or laziness to go to the bathroom and also simply to get my attention. I do want to see a child psychiatrist, but husband is not on board with this yet. I don't know how to convince him. The psychologist met with him privately on Saturday, but I don't feel from the sketchy info husband gave me that she was able to convince him. He still feels that getting a tutor to do homework and spend time with daughter will change her bad behavior. How do you get through a brick wall?
Bottom line is that I want help for my daughter, and with husband creating a roadblock, I don't see how that is possible at this point?
P.S. Anyone that has had bedwetting issues, can you advise if bedwetting alarms are worth purchasing? Do they solve the bedwetting problems?
I am alsoin the "drives me batty" camp when people insist our kids are doing these things for attention. It just doesn't make sense. How can a child who has NO attention span make a manipulative plan for anything????
Marg outlines a great way to handle the bedwetting. It can't hurt to try it, esp because what you are doing now is not working.
Do you really NEED husband to approve before you take your child to the doctor??? When I KNEW something was wrong I made appointments and took care of things. My husband did NOT think seeing a neurologist was needed when Jess was thought to have inattentive ADHD, in fact he told me it was a waste of time. Guess what?? Her "ADHD" was actually epilepsy. A very treatable kind, but ADHD medications would have made it WORSE!!
Find a child psychiatrist and a neuropsychologist. If husband objects, ask if he would stand in the way of treatment if she had diabetes. Let him object, but take her to the doctor ANYWAY! You might learn more about what is going on.
I also agree that these are NOT typical ADHD behaviors, that there should be NO shame/blame involved, and that she should help clean up the mess. After a learning period she should take care of the sheets/underwear herself.
Bedwetting that appears at 8 or so is usually a sign SOMETHING is wrong. Is she terribly thirsty all the time? If she is sneaking drinks into her room, could it be that her thirst is very great? Has she been tested for diabetes lately?? It just occurred to me that excessive thirst is often a sign of diabetes. It is something they should rule out, in my humble opinion.
Hugs, the whole situation is very hard.
Susie
Marg outlines a great way to handle the bedwetting. It can't hurt to try it, esp because what you are doing now is not working.
Do you really NEED husband to approve before you take your child to the doctor??? When I KNEW something was wrong I made appointments and took care of things. My husband did NOT think seeing a neurologist was needed when Jess was thought to have inattentive ADHD, in fact he told me it was a waste of time. Guess what?? Her "ADHD" was actually epilepsy. A very treatable kind, but ADHD medications would have made it WORSE!!
Find a child psychiatrist and a neuropsychologist. If husband objects, ask if he would stand in the way of treatment if she had diabetes. Let him object, but take her to the doctor ANYWAY! You might learn more about what is going on.
I also agree that these are NOT typical ADHD behaviors, that there should be NO shame/blame involved, and that she should help clean up the mess. After a learning period she should take care of the sheets/underwear herself.
Bedwetting that appears at 8 or so is usually a sign SOMETHING is wrong. Is she terribly thirsty all the time? If she is sneaking drinks into her room, could it be that her thirst is very great? Has she been tested for diabetes lately?? It just occurred to me that excessive thirst is often a sign of diabetes. It is something they should rule out, in my humble opinion.
Hugs, the whole situation is very hard.
Susie
TerryJ2
Well-Known Member
We tried a bedwetting alarm. The only problem is, that you have to get it wet for it to go off, so in a sense, you're training the child to wake up AFTER they've wet. It's actually cheaper to use your own alarm clock, get the kid up at a certain time, use the bathroom, and go back to bed. Our son woke up the whole house anyway, and so did the alarm; it was pretty loud. The good part was that he cooperated and seemed to want to get rid of the problem.
Marguerite
Active Member
The alarm is supposed to work by waking the child AS they are wetting, so they get interrupted. The child then should re-set the alarm (if mature enough) because unless the child is on board with this, you aren't going to be as sure of success.
We were on line to hire the alarm - it had been ordered in our name, was about to be couriered across from the incontinence doctor's place, but the simple procedure of having the appointment (when the doctor talked to difficult child 3 about how we were trying to help him have dry nights) plus the "toilet time" at our bedtime, PLUS (a big plus) putting him in his own undies to sleep (an act of faith, plus also him quickly learning the feel of wet pants) had done the trick in the week it took to order the alarm. We told the doctor to send it back, we no longer needed it.
She gave us a booklet with some really good stuff ini it - I'll see if I can find it, in case there's anything I have forgotten. But I've listed the things that did the trick for us.
I do feel though, an important part of it was discussing what we planned with difficult child 3, to get him on side and working with us in this. We did make it clear to him, the problems wasn't him being naughty or lazy, it was simply that for some people, that part of the brain takes a bit longer to switch into older person mode.
Marg
We were on line to hire the alarm - it had been ordered in our name, was about to be couriered across from the incontinence doctor's place, but the simple procedure of having the appointment (when the doctor talked to difficult child 3 about how we were trying to help him have dry nights) plus the "toilet time" at our bedtime, PLUS (a big plus) putting him in his own undies to sleep (an act of faith, plus also him quickly learning the feel of wet pants) had done the trick in the week it took to order the alarm. We told the doctor to send it back, we no longer needed it.
She gave us a booklet with some really good stuff ini it - I'll see if I can find it, in case there's anything I have forgotten. But I've listed the things that did the trick for us.
I do feel though, an important part of it was discussing what we planned with difficult child 3, to get him on side and working with us in this. We did make it clear to him, the problems wasn't him being naughty or lazy, it was simply that for some people, that part of the brain takes a bit longer to switch into older person mode.
Marg
I am alsoin the "drives me batty" camp when people insist our kids are doing these things for attention. It just doesn't make sense. How can a child who has NO attention span make a manipulative plan for anything????
daughter has an attention span especially when doing things she likes to do, so if she is, in fact, ADHD, she is not the inattentive type.
Marg outlines a great way to handle the bedwetting. It can't hurt to try it, esp because what you are doing now is not working.
I will give it a try.
Do you really NEED husband to approve before you take your child to the doctor??? When I KNEW something was wrong I made appointments and took care of things. My husband did NOT think seeing a neurologist was needed when Jess was thought to have inattentive ADHD, in fact he told me it was a waste of time. Guess what?? Her "ADHD" was actually epilepsy. A very treatable kind, but ADHD medications would have made it WORSE!!
I could sneak off and go the a child psychiatrist, but I am sure daughter will tell him. I am going to give this tutoring thing a try as he wants me to do do. If her defiant behavior towards me does not change (which I doubt it will), I will tell him to own up to his part of the bargain of seeing a child psychiatrist.
Find a child psychiatrist and a neuropsychologist. If husband objects, ask if he would stand in the way of treatment if she had diabetes. Let him object, but take her to the doctor ANYWAY! You might learn more about what is going on.
I doubt that he would object if she had diabetes. He refuses to see what she may have as being a mental issue and says all children act up and misbehave from time to time. The problem here is that her misbehavior is more than from time to time.
I also agree that these are NOT typical ADHD behaviors, that there should be NO shame/blame involved, and that she should help clean up the mess. After a learning period she should take care of the sheets/underwear herself.
Bedwetting that appears at 8 or so is usually a sign SOMETHING is wrong. Is she terribly thirsty all the time? If she is sneaking drinks into her room, could it be that her thirst is very great? Has she been tested for diabetes lately?? It just occurred to me that excessive thirst is often a sign of diabetes. It is something they should rule out, in my humble opinion.
It is not only drinking it is overeating. She eats a decent breakfast, snack, lunch and dinner and then sneaks in food and drinks to her bedroom.
Hugs, the whole situation is very hard.
Susie[/quote]
daughter has an attention span especially when doing things she likes to do, so if she is, in fact, ADHD, she is not the inattentive type.
Marg outlines a great way to handle the bedwetting. It can't hurt to try it, esp because what you are doing now is not working.
I will give it a try.
Do you really NEED husband to approve before you take your child to the doctor??? When I KNEW something was wrong I made appointments and took care of things. My husband did NOT think seeing a neurologist was needed when Jess was thought to have inattentive ADHD, in fact he told me it was a waste of time. Guess what?? Her "ADHD" was actually epilepsy. A very treatable kind, but ADHD medications would have made it WORSE!!
I could sneak off and go the a child psychiatrist, but I am sure daughter will tell him. I am going to give this tutoring thing a try as he wants me to do do. If her defiant behavior towards me does not change (which I doubt it will), I will tell him to own up to his part of the bargain of seeing a child psychiatrist.
Find a child psychiatrist and a neuropsychologist. If husband objects, ask if he would stand in the way of treatment if she had diabetes. Let him object, but take her to the doctor ANYWAY! You might learn more about what is going on.
I doubt that he would object if she had diabetes. He refuses to see what she may have as being a mental issue and says all children act up and misbehave from time to time. The problem here is that her misbehavior is more than from time to time.
I also agree that these are NOT typical ADHD behaviors, that there should be NO shame/blame involved, and that she should help clean up the mess. After a learning period she should take care of the sheets/underwear herself.
Bedwetting that appears at 8 or so is usually a sign SOMETHING is wrong. Is she terribly thirsty all the time? If she is sneaking drinks into her room, could it be that her thirst is very great? Has she been tested for diabetes lately?? It just occurred to me that excessive thirst is often a sign of diabetes. It is something they should rule out, in my humble opinion.
It is not only drinking it is overeating. She eats a decent breakfast, snack, lunch and dinner and then sneaks in food and drinks to her bedroom.
Hugs, the whole situation is very hard.
Susie[/quote]
I am also worried about waking up the whole house. More importantly, I am worried about walking up the neighbors. Our house is attached on one side, and our neighbor's master bedroom is adjacent to daughter's. I am worried the alarm will wake them up too. There is a Malem alarm that has a vibrator, lights and alarm. I am not sure if you can just put it on vibrate mode. Even if you could, I am not sure if a vibration alone would wake her. She is a deep sleeper.
In any event, I need to try something.
dcwsaranac
I hear music...
Arielle,
I hope that I am simply clueless here, however....
It sounds like you are saying this is new issue, not one of never fully mastering potty-training.
I once had a corworker whose stepson began to bedwet/soil himself at the age 8 or 9. This after only occasional accidents since potty-training.
I don't know if they determined the issue to be physical or psychological, but they did find the root cause to be physical/sexual abuse by the bio-dad that started around the same time.
I pray that I am way out in left field, but has she had a complete physical to rule out anything like this.
I hope that I am simply clueless here, however....
It sounds like you are saying this is new issue, not one of never fully mastering potty-training.
I once had a corworker whose stepson began to bedwet/soil himself at the age 8 or 9. This after only occasional accidents since potty-training.
I don't know if they determined the issue to be physical or psychological, but they did find the root cause to be physical/sexual abuse by the bio-dad that started around the same time.
I pray that I am way out in left field, but has she had a complete physical to rule out anything like this.
LOVESDOLPHINS
New Member
ARIELLE, MY THEN 6 YEAR OLD had bed wetting and pooping issue for a good three years and his kinda ended up being a mix of emotional issuses and a medical problem. he ended up in thearpy and going to peds gastroliost for a fecal impaction. i do know the problem is more common in boys then girls. and sometimes when they go to the bathroom with a really hard bm and it hurts. they then decide that if it hurts to go to the bathroom then i am simply not going to go. so they end up holding the bm and causing a fecal impaction. the threat of a barium emema on my 6 year old sorta scared the pooped right of him. i explained the proceadure and he decide he would then go to the bahroom also some miralax and or docolax also helped if axienty about the bm hurting. i think the proper name for peeing yourself is day/nightime enursis and for pooping yourself is day/nightime encopersis. they also tested my son for a teahered spinal cord which can also casue these problems. sorry for bad spelling im or pm if want more info
Daytime she has been dry since potty training. Nighttime, she always wets the bed. Doctors told me not to worry about that as it may be genetic and many children outgrow this. Soiling her pants has been a new phenomenon that started in September of last year. Mostly that occurs during the day and not in the evening when she sleeps.
I am going to discuss with her doctor at her next appointment. I am assuming it is either psychological or medical, but need to find out for sure. In any event, scare tactics so far like threatening to show people her soiled underwear in the hopes that she would be embarassed by it and stop, has not worked.
Arielle,
I hope I did not upset you about the "asking husband about taking her to a child psychiartist". It was NOT meant as any kind of insult. I just have seen families where one parent objected and it didn't occur to the other to make the kind of deal you have with your husband. Do you have a time frame for trying the tutoring and more mom time before you see a child psychiatrist? I am asking because it can take MONTHS to get a new patient appointment with a psychiatrist, so it might be worthwhile to make the appointment and then cancel it if you see it isn't needed. That way you get treatment in a more timely manner IF you and husband decide it is needed. (I mention this because it took over 5 months to get our difficult child's first psychiatrist appointment - they scheduled that far ahead.)
Has your daughter been tested for urinary tract infections? They can arise from constipation or fecal impaction - the mass of feces keeps the bladder form emptying fully. We had this with my daughter at about your daughter's age. a week of dulcolax and changing her posture on the toilet helped.
The urologist said that she needed to sit up straight and have her knees as far apart as possible - panties at the ankles or off. If she has trouble remembering to keep her knees apart, having her sit on the potty facing the tank (backwards) is recommended. It also gives something to hold on to, and sometimes kids ARE afraid they will be sucked into the toilet, or are afraid of the sound of the water. I was.
I know from experiences in parent support groups for parents of kids with ADHD that often a child CAN concentrate when she is interested in something. Things with screens (tv, videogames, etc...) often are focused on. Sometimes to the extent of everything else.
Adhd CAN be a symptom of something else too. For children with Aspergers (NOT saying your daughter has this, just an example) ADHD is actually a facet of the disorder. Often given as a separate diagnosis, but much of the literature I have seen says it is part of the Aspergers. It helps get better/more/different insurance coverage to put is as a separate diagnosis.
Many many of us here have started with ADHD and ODD as our children's diagnosis, then later found it was something else.
Toileting issues are NOT generally what children choose to be defiant over. I am sure that there are children somewhere who do this, but it is not typical.
Is your daughter on any medications? They can make a difference in bathroom accidents.
Hugs,
Susie
ps. I know how frustrating it is to have a child sneaking food/drink into their room - at age 12 my oldest took a 3 pound package of ground beef (cooked) into his room and hid it behind his bed. He also took all of my spices to kill off anything that might give him food poisoning. Of course, his room started to stink horrifically, and he got food poisoning.
Hoarding food is another thing lots of us go through with our kids. Wish I had an answer!
I hope I did not upset you about the "asking husband about taking her to a child psychiartist". It was NOT meant as any kind of insult. I just have seen families where one parent objected and it didn't occur to the other to make the kind of deal you have with your husband. Do you have a time frame for trying the tutoring and more mom time before you see a child psychiatrist? I am asking because it can take MONTHS to get a new patient appointment with a psychiatrist, so it might be worthwhile to make the appointment and then cancel it if you see it isn't needed. That way you get treatment in a more timely manner IF you and husband decide it is needed. (I mention this because it took over 5 months to get our difficult child's first psychiatrist appointment - they scheduled that far ahead.)
Has your daughter been tested for urinary tract infections? They can arise from constipation or fecal impaction - the mass of feces keeps the bladder form emptying fully. We had this with my daughter at about your daughter's age. a week of dulcolax and changing her posture on the toilet helped.
The urologist said that she needed to sit up straight and have her knees as far apart as possible - panties at the ankles or off. If she has trouble remembering to keep her knees apart, having her sit on the potty facing the tank (backwards) is recommended. It also gives something to hold on to, and sometimes kids ARE afraid they will be sucked into the toilet, or are afraid of the sound of the water. I was.
I know from experiences in parent support groups for parents of kids with ADHD that often a child CAN concentrate when she is interested in something. Things with screens (tv, videogames, etc...) often are focused on. Sometimes to the extent of everything else.
Adhd CAN be a symptom of something else too. For children with Aspergers (NOT saying your daughter has this, just an example) ADHD is actually a facet of the disorder. Often given as a separate diagnosis, but much of the literature I have seen says it is part of the Aspergers. It helps get better/more/different insurance coverage to put is as a separate diagnosis.
Many many of us here have started with ADHD and ODD as our children's diagnosis, then later found it was something else.
Toileting issues are NOT generally what children choose to be defiant over. I am sure that there are children somewhere who do this, but it is not typical.
Is your daughter on any medications? They can make a difference in bathroom accidents.
Hugs,
Susie
ps. I know how frustrating it is to have a child sneaking food/drink into their room - at age 12 my oldest took a 3 pound package of ground beef (cooked) into his room and hid it behind his bed. He also took all of my spices to kill off anything that might give him food poisoning. Of course, his room started to stink horrifically, and he got food poisoning.
Hoarding food is another thing lots of us go through with our kids. Wish I had an answer!
Arielle,
I hope I did not upset you about the "asking husband about taking her to a child psychiartist". It was NOT meant as any kind of insult. I just have seen families where one parent objected and it didn't occur to the other to make the kind of deal you have with your husband. Do you have a time frame for trying the tutoring and more mom time before you see a child psychiatrist? I am asking because it can take MONTHS to get a new patient appointment with a psychiatrist, so it might be worthwhile to make the appointment and then cancel it if you see it isn't needed. That way you get treatment in a more timely manner IF you and husband decide it is needed. (I mention this because it took over 5 months to get our difficult child's first psychiatrist appointment - they scheduled that far ahead.)
Susie - Not to worry. I did not take it as an insult whatsover. I, for one, am not thrilled about getting a tutor for daughter. husband and the Psychologist believe it would do daughter good to get the undivided attention of someone else and it would free up the 4 or more hours of homework per day she spends with me. Personally, I do not see this as changing daughter's defiant and explosive behavior, but we shall see. The suggestion seems contradictory, if you ask me. The psychologist believes that daughter's behavior had gotten worse once DS was born and he was getting most of the attention. Well, in my mind's eye, I feel daughter will be more jealous now that I give DS more attention while she is being tutored by a stranger. I have agreed to having a tutor on condition my husband agrees to daughter seeing a child psychiatrist if daughter's behavior does not improve. The psychologist has a child psychiatrist in mind and will consult with the child psychiatric when that time comes.
Has your daughter been tested for urinary tract infections? They can arise from constipation or fecal impaction - the mass of feces keeps the bladder form emptying fully. We had this with my daughter at about your daughter's age. a week of dulcolax and changing her posture on the toilet helped.
When the day-time soiling of her pants started back in September, we took her to a Dev. Pediatrician in November when we finally got an appointment. She did not indicate that she needed to have her tested for Urinary Tract Infection (UTI). She immediate suggested that we have daughter see a psychologist for behavior modification therapy and we have been doing that ever since.
The urologist said that she needed to sit up straight and have her knees as far apart as possible - panties at the ankles or off. If she has trouble remembering to keep her knees apart, having her sit on the potty facing the tank (backwards) is recommended. It also gives something to hold on to, and sometimes kids ARE afraid they will be sucked into the toilet, or are afraid of the sound of the water. I was.
daughter had no problems using the toilet for doing no. 2 before. This all just started in September. The psychologist thinks it is attention seeking, but I feel it is more emotional than just that. I have an appointment. with the psychiatric tonight and will bring up the issue again. daughter was good since XMAS and has just started soiling her pants again almost every day within the last week and a half. I am surprised none of these behaviors take place in school.
I know from experiences in parent support groups for parents of kids with ADHD that often a child CAN concentrate when she is interested in something. Things with screens (tv, videogames, etc...) often are focused on. Sometimes to the extent of everything else.
She seems to be able to focus intently on things she likes. TV, video games. She is an excellent swimmer and focuses well in those scenarios. She does well in school and is an A-B student, so she must be paying attention in class. She does not display any of these defiant behaviors at school. She is a model student and wants to be the teacher's pet. I have received no complaint so far this year from any teacher. Last year, in First Grade, the teacher commented that daughter was a great student, but needed to shift gears more quickly. For example, she was writing an essay about the Easter Bunny at Easter time. It became an Epic! It was time for the class to stop writing and switch to Math period. daughter wanted to complete her Essay and told the teacher she needed a few more minutes.
Adhd CAN be a symptom of something else too. For children with Aspergers (NOT saying your daughter has this, just an example) ADHD is actually a facet of the disorder. Often given as a separate diagnosis, but much of the literature I have seen says it is part of the Aspergers. It helps get better/more/different insurance coverage to put is as a separate diagnosis.
I am hoping I get a more definitive diagnosis, once I take her to a child psychiatrist.
Many many of us here have started with ADHD and ODD as our children's diagnosis, then later found it was something else.
Toileting issues are NOT generally what children choose to be defiant over. I am sure that there are children somewhere who do this, but it is not typical.
I just wish I knew what could be causing this. My Mom thinks it is sheer laziness from stopping to do whatever she is doing and running to the bathroom. My Mom and I have both been making daughter clean up her underwear and soak it in the sink after she has these episodes. So far, it has not deterred her from doing them. She is embarassed by the accidents and now has my Mom sworn to secrecy not to tell me. At home she hides her soiled underwear for me to find and now she does that at Grandma's house as well.
Is your daughter on any medications? They can make a difference in bathroom accidents.
She is not on any medications. The only medication we tried was the one for bed wetting. I only tried that on one occasion when we went away on a weekend trip. The pills did not work.
THanks for your reply.
Hugs,
Arielle
I hope I did not upset you about the "asking husband about taking her to a child psychiartist". It was NOT meant as any kind of insult. I just have seen families where one parent objected and it didn't occur to the other to make the kind of deal you have with your husband. Do you have a time frame for trying the tutoring and more mom time before you see a child psychiatrist? I am asking because it can take MONTHS to get a new patient appointment with a psychiatrist, so it might be worthwhile to make the appointment and then cancel it if you see it isn't needed. That way you get treatment in a more timely manner IF you and husband decide it is needed. (I mention this because it took over 5 months to get our difficult child's first psychiatrist appointment - they scheduled that far ahead.)
Susie - Not to worry. I did not take it as an insult whatsover. I, for one, am not thrilled about getting a tutor for daughter. husband and the Psychologist believe it would do daughter good to get the undivided attention of someone else and it would free up the 4 or more hours of homework per day she spends with me. Personally, I do not see this as changing daughter's defiant and explosive behavior, but we shall see. The suggestion seems contradictory, if you ask me. The psychologist believes that daughter's behavior had gotten worse once DS was born and he was getting most of the attention. Well, in my mind's eye, I feel daughter will be more jealous now that I give DS more attention while she is being tutored by a stranger. I have agreed to having a tutor on condition my husband agrees to daughter seeing a child psychiatrist if daughter's behavior does not improve. The psychologist has a child psychiatrist in mind and will consult with the child psychiatric when that time comes.
Has your daughter been tested for urinary tract infections? They can arise from constipation or fecal impaction - the mass of feces keeps the bladder form emptying fully. We had this with my daughter at about your daughter's age. a week of dulcolax and changing her posture on the toilet helped.
When the day-time soiling of her pants started back in September, we took her to a Dev. Pediatrician in November when we finally got an appointment. She did not indicate that she needed to have her tested for Urinary Tract Infection (UTI). She immediate suggested that we have daughter see a psychologist for behavior modification therapy and we have been doing that ever since.
The urologist said that she needed to sit up straight and have her knees as far apart as possible - panties at the ankles or off. If she has trouble remembering to keep her knees apart, having her sit on the potty facing the tank (backwards) is recommended. It also gives something to hold on to, and sometimes kids ARE afraid they will be sucked into the toilet, or are afraid of the sound of the water. I was.
daughter had no problems using the toilet for doing no. 2 before. This all just started in September. The psychologist thinks it is attention seeking, but I feel it is more emotional than just that. I have an appointment. with the psychiatric tonight and will bring up the issue again. daughter was good since XMAS and has just started soiling her pants again almost every day within the last week and a half. I am surprised none of these behaviors take place in school.
I know from experiences in parent support groups for parents of kids with ADHD that often a child CAN concentrate when she is interested in something. Things with screens (tv, videogames, etc...) often are focused on. Sometimes to the extent of everything else.
She seems to be able to focus intently on things she likes. TV, video games. She is an excellent swimmer and focuses well in those scenarios. She does well in school and is an A-B student, so she must be paying attention in class. She does not display any of these defiant behaviors at school. She is a model student and wants to be the teacher's pet. I have received no complaint so far this year from any teacher. Last year, in First Grade, the teacher commented that daughter was a great student, but needed to shift gears more quickly. For example, she was writing an essay about the Easter Bunny at Easter time. It became an Epic! It was time for the class to stop writing and switch to Math period. daughter wanted to complete her Essay and told the teacher she needed a few more minutes.
Adhd CAN be a symptom of something else too. For children with Aspergers (NOT saying your daughter has this, just an example) ADHD is actually a facet of the disorder. Often given as a separate diagnosis, but much of the literature I have seen says it is part of the Aspergers. It helps get better/more/different insurance coverage to put is as a separate diagnosis.
I am hoping I get a more definitive diagnosis, once I take her to a child psychiatrist.
Many many of us here have started with ADHD and ODD as our children's diagnosis, then later found it was something else.
Toileting issues are NOT generally what children choose to be defiant over. I am sure that there are children somewhere who do this, but it is not typical.
I just wish I knew what could be causing this. My Mom thinks it is sheer laziness from stopping to do whatever she is doing and running to the bathroom. My Mom and I have both been making daughter clean up her underwear and soak it in the sink after she has these episodes. So far, it has not deterred her from doing them. She is embarassed by the accidents and now has my Mom sworn to secrecy not to tell me. At home she hides her soiled underwear for me to find and now she does that at Grandma's house as well.
Is your daughter on any medications? They can make a difference in bathroom accidents.
She is not on any medications. The only medication we tried was the one for bed wetting. I only tried that on one occasion when we went away on a weekend trip. The pills did not work.
THanks for your reply.
Hugs,
Arielle
My son is 7/12 and we have the same issues. Fortunately, limiting his fluid intake at night does help. When he does wet the bed he often doesn't know it until morning time.
The soiling doesn't happen with any regularity and I don't believe for a second it's within his control. I agree with another poster who said it's as if they don't read the signals they're bodies are giving them. I've noticed patterns with him though - that it will happen about 3 times in a week then stop for months. It's almost like it shocks him and he does start paying better attention.
That being said, it still horrifies me. I think how can this be possible?!?!! I feel angry and disappointed at the same time.
I am relieved to see we are not alone.
The soiling doesn't happen with any regularity and I don't believe for a second it's within his control. I agree with another poster who said it's as if they don't read the signals they're bodies are giving them. I've noticed patterns with him though - that it will happen about 3 times in a week then stop for months. It's almost like it shocks him and he does start paying better attention.
That being said, it still horrifies me. I think how can this be possible?!?!! I feel angry and disappointed at the same time.
I am relieved to see we are not alone.
I have been doing some research on the Internet and several articles including the one here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encopresis mention that Encopresis is not only a medical condition with respect to constipation, but also a psychiatric condition as a result of having Oppositional Defiant Disorder or Conduct Disorder. I also note that if one has ODD or CD and has Encopresis, they most likely have Enuresis too. My daughter bedwets as well.
I am at my wits end. daughter has been soiling her pants every day for over a week now. I mentioned this to her psychologist yesterday, and she thinks daughter is doing this on spite and as a means of getting my attention -- whether it is negative or positive attention.
I have asked daughter's psychologist to once again meet with husband in the hopes that she can get through to him with respect to having daughter see a psychiatrist.
I am at my wits end. daughter has been soiling her pants every day for over a week now. I mentioned this to her psychologist yesterday, and she thinks daughter is doing this on spite and as a means of getting my attention -- whether it is negative or positive attention.
I have asked daughter's psychologist to once again meet with husband in the hopes that she can get through to him with respect to having daughter see a psychiatrist.
With respect to bedwetting, my daughter claims she does not feel when she has to go at night. She is a deep sleeper. She has only started this soiling business on and off since September. Before that, there were no problems going to the toilet. Today, she spent the better part of the day in her pullups from the night before. She refused to take them off and take a shower because she knew I would find that her pullups were soiled...and they were. I could smell her.
I just told her to go sit on the toilet and she said she did not have to go. I just don't understand why. I really do think it is out of defiance on her part.
