Bipolar Disorder

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
My son had the wrong label and the wrong medications. I cared more about the wrong medications...I am still upset at myself for going along with bipolar when it felt wrong to me...he did not have mood swings nor did he even rage after he turned four. As for a label following you forever, it doesn't. My son's BiPolar (BP) label has been dropped. Nobody sees it. There is no such thing as a diagnosis that can't be c hanged.
Having said this, I am in love with this TDD (temper dysregulation disorder). I think it is PERFECT for what is now known as pediatric bipolar. It was PERFECT for what was wrong with me when I was a child. I truly did have such bad depression, even as a child, that I know for a fact that kids can be depressed. Still, biggest problem with my behavior was an inability to stay on an even keel and would sometimes be sweet as pie and sometimes act out because of a simple "no" from my parents. This continued into adulthood. I diagnosed myself with borderline personality disorder which is soon to be called emotional dysregulation disorder. The moodswings of children can turn into many things...not just bipolar. Borderline is another. Some kids get less volatile on their own too. My Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) son is pretty calm now. Of course, he also got a lot of interventions.

The only time I'd probably really believe that my child maybe has bipolar or schizophrenia was if the child had hallucinations. That is way beyond the realm of ADHD or anything else. Other than that, I think doctors should be more careful when they diagnose and less drug happy. Some seem to write a prescription for every single symptom. Again, as one who has been overmedicated, that is the worse feeling in the world. You feel like you're walking in a dream; like a zombie; like nothing is real. What's with overmedicating these children?? I find this a disturbing trend, no offense meant to anybody as, of course, I am not a doctor and probably have no idea what I'm talking about :)

Just a vent on a subject which is touchy to me.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Malika -
Just me on a ramble like usual, but I've been thinking...

J is young. Too young for most dxes, and the way he "presents" doesn't add up for the kinds of dxes that can be picked up this young, like Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). But... having spent something like 15 years researching ADD/ADHD, and a strong family history of it (multi-generational, across large family tree)... nothing about J really adds up for ADHD either.

The reason I'm bringing this up is... this may be part of why the teacher doesn't understand. No matter what materials you give her on ADHD, it doesn't match up with J. So, the next step is that she then discounts whatever other input you are trying to give.

When we decided we were going to have to be the drivers and do all the research and then find professionals to back us... it took hundreds (more likely thousands) of hours of research. Down hundreds of dead-ends - but, each dead-end meant one more area that it "couldn't be".


You have two things on your side right now...
1) J. is young - so, there is time to allow things to develop a bit here and see what happens next... how much of the issue is in fact a maturity thing? do other symptoms show up later?

2) Medical science continues to evolve. Things that were completely "unknown" or at least unknown in practice, are becoming known now - things like Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD), for example. New tags are out there now, that didn't exist when I did the bulk of my research 2-4 years ago... like TDD. Somehow, find a way to keep on top of these developments - try them on for size, take what you can use.

And for school? You have a psychiatrist/therapist problem, anyway... which doesn't help - but sometimes a "not otherwise specified" diagnosis makes a good placeholder... as in "anxiety disorder not otherwise specified" or "mood disorder not otherwise specified" or whatever. THIS flags for the school that the student has a "measurable issue" as per the psychiatrist, but we don't quite know the details. Recommendations are then possible...

Just some thoughts...
As it is already tomorrow where you are... hope "today" today goes well for you!
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Hear, hear, MWM! Not sure if you say that in the States - it's what the strange parliamentarians all say at the House of Commons in London when they agree with something :) You seem to me to be talking very good sense, based on your experience.
Time will be helpful in terms of revealing things in terms of J. It truly does look to me like ADHD plus ODD, except that I get the feeling that ODD isn't set in stone and can be modified, maybe even overturned, by therapy or treatment. I've already seen a big dimunition in it based on me changing my behaviour with him. At the same time, I can't be complacent. This anti-social, worrying behaviour of his will come out of nowhere (seemingly), out of left field and, just when I am thinking "oh things are basically fine with this very spirited child", wham, something will happen to take the wind out of my sails.
Yesterday a good case in point. He didn't go to the childminder's on Saturday as we had the neuro-psychologist exam (for what it was worth - she basically just administered the WPSII intelligence/skills test, I have realised; oh well!) so, because I have so much work at the moment, he went yesterday. This childminder seems to have dropped out of heaven, frankly. She seems to understand J and how he works and they do all these great things - basically he just gets taken along with her family and they keep horses and are mad about riding. Yesterday he rode a pony, apparently all by himself... Anyway, when I picked him up, she said that he had been absolutely delightful, no trouble whatsever, good as gold, etc, etc. One might say, why wouldn't he be, spending a completely enjoyable day with people who obviously like and accept him? Before we left, however, she did give him various sweets (which I never give him, just chocolate bars meant for children, with milk and no additives) and I wonder whether that was related to what subsequently happened...
Arriving back home, he wanted of course to play with the children. I said okay, he could until supper was ready. The dynamic had changed because an older girl cousin had come to stay with them and they were now sitting outside their house engaged in pureeing horse chestnuts (!) rather than playing. I left J to go up to the house to leave our things etc and told him I would be back. When I returned five minutes later, he was swinging on a fence some way from them and they all called out to me "He won't leave us alone! He's been throwing stones at us!" - rather a change from the previous two times when they were all playing together rowdily but very happily... Talking to J about it (and frankly just telling him, which made him cry but he really has to know this, that if he throws stones at children they will not want to be his friends), he said he did it because they did not want to play with him because they were engaged on their activity - this I can recognise; feeling hurt, he lashes out. But worrying, throwing stones. I don't know if he actually hit them or was just throwing in their direction - I suspect the latter, otherwise I would have heard about it.
So... there's definitely something going on. It then started raining, as luck would have it, so the children got called in and I brought J home. Accompanied of course by a fit of crying. When I talked to him about the stone throwing, and why it was not good, he again got upset and at one point said to me "I don't want you as a mummy - I want to go back to the creche!" He has never said that before... he never talks about his adoption, or having come from the creche, but he has obviously taken it all in... I went downstairs, saying I didn't want to be spoken to like that. Eventually, he calmed down and reverted to "sweet J", who really is so different from "nasty J" and I find it quite hard to reconcile the two... When I asked him if he had been good to talk to me like that, he said "sorry, Mummy" and wanted to give me a hug and seemed genuinely sad and sorry.
Of course his story as an adopted child is also relevant, has to be... I obviously have no knowing what part it plays. Also his particular character and temperament. He's so firey... and I'm not firey enough. It's a better approach to take with him. Last night he wanted to put his roller skates on (he's just learning to walk in them, before starting roller skate lessons in a couple of weeks) just as I was running his bath. When I said no he couldn't he of course started complaining and protesting. Usually he would have insisted, gone on and on (negative persistence) - but I guess I was just feeling tired of these prolonged semi-battles so I walked into the room, picked him up and said in a large, booming, jokey voice "YOU WILL NOT PUT YOUR SKATES ON! LITTLE BOYS CALLED J WILL NOW HAVE THEIR BATH!" and he loved it... immediately accepted it his bath and to relinquish the skates and asked me several times later to do "the voice". After the bath when I asked him, he meekly put away his skates without insisting to try them on (also new)...
He needs a dad, I think... A kind of firm but loving dad. Not the one he's got, alas. What to do? Unfortunately it's not one of those things you can arrange at will.

Forgive th e long post. Insane, we posted at the same time so I didn't see yours. You said

"nothing about J really adds up for ADHD either. No matter what materials you give her on ADHD, it doesn't match up with J. "

Ummm.... I'm afraid, respectfully and in the light of my knowledge, I have to disagree! J fully fulfils the Connors diagnostic tool. The only confusing element about him is that his concentration seems okay - but then I am just told that that is because he is in the hyperactivity/impulsivity group. The teacher disagrees because.... well, what I can I say? She had never heard of ADHD before I arrived and apparently spent a lot of energy in the past insisting that a dyslexic child wasn't dyslexic. Also because he sits and concentrates reasonably well - the psychiatrist also tells me this is not unusual for some ADHD kids... I have lent her one book about ADHD - no other materials! - and I think any objective analysis would say that J fits the global picture given in the book. Her objection, when I quizzed her about it, seems to come down to one thing: that in the book they apparently say that ADHD kids have a verbal skill that outdoes their performance skill, whereas she says the opposite is true of J. And I am not sure she is right about that...
 
Last edited:

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Malika -
Conners isn't one that I'm familiar with,so I can't speak to that in particular.
The testing protocols here for ADHD all involve multiple tools, not just one - I'd be wary of relying on a single tool.
The executive functions component - which does seem to be where J fits, from what you have posted - can be attributed to a wide range of dxes, and some kids don't seem to fit any diagnosis but still map over-the-top for executive functions problems.

In practice, there are differences of definition from one country to another. So... in France, the psychiatrist may say that he's seen other kids with ADHD who do not have inattentive symptoms - while we were told the opposite by multiple specialists (that is, that some level of dysfunctional inattentiveness is a requirement, even if the hyperactivity component drives the diagnosis, because in the absense of inattentiveness, the symptoms are probably better explained by an alternative diagnosis). In which case, the meaning of ADHD may in practice be subtilly different.

But that's just what WE were told.

You make a really interesting statement in your last post, though:
He needs a dad, I think... A kind of firm but loving dad. Not the one he's got, alas. What to do? Unfortunately it's not one of those things you can arrange at will.
Maybe not a Dad, exactly... but kids swing in their need to relate to the same vs. opposite gender - sometimes one, sometimes the other.
He is at an age where a significant positive male role model would probably be a factor. Uncles, grandfathers, older cousins, etc. - any of these can have the same effect, if they are around on a day-to-day basis (i.e. more than just "school holidays"). Not that these are something you can arrange at will, either!
Here - they have something called Big Brothers, which will match a screened male volunteer with a boy age 6-12 or so, for interaction and activities once or twice a week. Not sure if France - or your specific area - has anything similar?

Positive note with that "change of voice" trick. Its part of the "humor" family of tactics, really - and is often really effective.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Well, all of this has my head spinning, to be honest! (Which isn't anyone's "fault", needless to say...) It sounds like the diagnostic tools you have available in Canada, Insane, are much more sophisticated than here. And I would be happier with a more sophisticated version, of course, given that that is presumably more accurate. About the concentration thing, I don't even really know what is going on with any great accuracy. He manages to sit down at school with the others and do their exercises, so that is what I mean. But then, thinking about it in the light of your post, I suddenly realised... all the times that J wanders off, for example, when I have asked him to stay near the house (just one example - I could give many) - has he done that to be openly defiant or simply because he has forgotten what I said, taken over by some other impulse in the moment? Sometimes he seems very surprised when I remind him of something I have already told him, as if he is hearing it for the first time... So maybe it is like what you said in another post and the seeming "no concentration problems" at school are just not appearing yet because he is only 4 and they are not doing anything very demanding of their attention?
The things that have always pointed to ADHD are that he is very hyperactive and impulsive. I do understand that these can be due to other things than ADHD though I don't have much detailed understanding of what and how... but I am living in a context where no one in the professional context has ever suggested anything other than ADHD. So I am obviously going down that line myself because he does seem to fit what I read. When I gave a detailed portrait of him to someone who has an ADHD/ODD child, he said "That's it! That's my own boy to a T". So... you know... none of this is straightforward. What is important is that he is now on a route to have potential learning disorders uncovered. This perhaps matters more at this stage than coming up with a definitive diagnosis which no one is going to do here until he is about six anyway. And how he gets on at school in the next couple of years will also be very revealing. I do agree that he doesn't have straight ADHD because of his aggressive/defiant impulses on occasion (though like I say I have read about increased aggressiveness in ADHD children). So... there I have to leave it for the moment I guess :)
As for the male buddy system - no, there's nothing formal like that in France. Maybe if one can do it informally that is better, anyway. I have recently made contact through a chance encounter with a group of Moroccans who meet every Sunday to share lunch and speak Moroccan Arabic with children. I plan to start taking J to this. It may lead to some possibility along these lines.
Onwards and upwards...
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Malika, to be honest, I feel you are wise to be cautious (wish I'd been more cautious). I'd bet if you got ten psychiatrists together, in ANY country, they would have differing ideas as to what is wrong with J , if anything. The tests aren't perfect. My daughter is a prime example. She is fifteen now so it is much easier to diagnose her. But how easy is it, really? The school and her doctor say she has ADD (no H) based on the Connors and her own complaints about having trouble paying attention. However, most k ids don't fi t every symptom. She is NOT impulsive, even though she can't pay attention. Her neuropsychologist, which by now I'm sure you realize is the gold standard of diagnosing here...lol, said she does NOT have ADHD. I'm beyond caring if s he does or doesn't have it. I just want her to get supports to help her concentrate in school. I use the ADHD label, which the school gave her, to get her supports. I am not sure she actually has it because...don't you HAVE to be impulsive to have ADD??? Oh, who cares...lol!
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Thanks MWM. Certainly feel some empathy with your sense of perplexity/frustration with the Realm of the Diagnosis :)
I know I keep on about this but I do feel confused about J, about what is going on with him. All the more so after tonight. I have never known him be like this. I picked him from school, where he was standing talking to his particular friend rather than rushing about as he always does; the assistant told me he had been really helpful that day. And all evening he was just... well, just the most easy child of pcs. He asked of course to play with the children in the village. When I said no because there wasn't time, there was school tomorrow, instead of the usual fight and protest and tears - which would normally happen even if he is not being particularly difficult - he just said "okay, Mummy!" And that was it! It was like that all evening. Helpful, mature, totally co-operative, charming. The vision of "how things could be".
What on earth was going on? The only thing I could think was that he has been taking magnesium for some time, which is reported by some to be this "wonder mineral" for hyperactive kids and I've read it takes some time to kick in... Could it be?? This behaviour shows that he can be like that, that he has the potential to be like that... It gives real food for thought.
I don't need to "diagnose" him - it can't be done at this stage anyway - but I do feel so puzzled sometimes by this child and more than ever, as I say, tonight. I have never known him not to protest in any way if I said no to him... Go figure.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Yes, Malika - sometimes one small change to something can make a major difference - at least for a while. Sometimes, its just the next "growth ring". Even PCs do actually wake up tomorrow... and they are not the same person. Some piece of the brain just "grew" overnight, and... we try to find the reason, and attribute it to all sorts of things. But it could just be "normal".

<sigh>
Whatever "normal" is!!!

Glad you had a nice evening. Make sure you have something "up your sleeve" as a reward... need that positive reinforcement!
 

keista

New Member
Enjoy every nanosecond of the good stuff! Hopefully it continues. And yes, it could have been a magnesium deficiency. One can only hope.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
MWM -

The split between ADD and ADHD-inattentive type gets argued at the professional level. The actual label is not the point.

The reality is, you CAN have difficulty managing your attention - without the "impulsive". Now, not sure if you can really be ADD without some form of hyperactivity... I have a daughter who is absolutely over-the-top ADD. She can look the teacher straight in the eye - and be "somewhere else" at the same time. Classical "inattentive". ADD, or ADHD-inattentive, take your pick. But... she does get hyper... not in "climbing the walls", but as in... talking your ear off... and you REALLY notice it when she is... tired, stressed, or missed her medications.

We've been told you can't be ADHD without some form of inattentiveness - that gets argued too.

Back in the "old" days, ADHD was a "boy" label, and usually involved hyperactivity at some level, and ADD was a "girl" label - there is some trend to that split, but boys can be ADD and girls can be ADHD.

Guess that might be a longer version of HaoZi's response!
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
Enjoy every nanosecond of the good stuff! Hopefully it continues. And yes, it could have been a magnesium deficiency. One can only hope.

Well, it would be too good to be true to think that my small difficult child has disappeared... I won't allow myself to indulge the hope. But this thing about magnesium deficiency in hyperactive children and the good results that have been achieved from supplements is very genuine. There's lots of testimony about it.
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
You might also try fish oil. It has a whole lot of studies about how it is very good for the brain. They even carry it now in gummy type chews so kids wont object to taking it. A gummy bear a day keeps the wiggles away!
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
You might also try fish oil. It has a whole lot of studies about how it is very good for the brain. They even carry it now in gummy type chews so kids wont object to taking it. A gummy bear a day keeps the wiggles away!

:rofl:

Are you working for the company? That's almost an advert jingle!

Fish oil is one option - others are saying to get a combo of Omega-3 and Omega-6 oils...

All of this "food" stuff... in my opinion - if you have a deficiency of some sort, then supplementing will produce positive benefits, but I'm not really in favor of living off a stack of pills unless there is no other answer - whether its medications or supplements.

(yes, Janet - you fall into the category of "no other answer".)
 
H

HaoZi

Guest
Because of food processes these days, the general population is getting way too much Omega-6 in their diets already. While yes, we need it, we need it in ratio to Omegas 3 and 9, not as the bulk. That's another way supplemental Omega 3 can help, by re-balancing our intake to a more correct proportion. We've had better luck with the krill omega than fish omega.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Well, I just know I'm confused and I don't even care anymore. If ADD means trouble paying attention and disorganized and forgetful, Jumper has the earmarks of it. If it also means she doesn't think through things and makes fast, impulsive decisions that get her into trouble, that is not her and has never been her. She makes good, thoughtful choices and is very mature in many ways. Whatever. If the professionals are arguing over it, I can only guess that they don't really have a consensus, which is unsettling.
I understand why the diagnostic game is frustrating and often a joke.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
MWM- the pros are arguing over LABELS. I don't care what they call it. But it IS real. And yes, your description of Jumper would be classic ADD. Usually, inattentive plus "some" executive functions issues - for some kids, that is impulsivity - for most of them, its "planning", "organization", maybe "shift"... really depends, but usually at least ONE. So... she's inattentive, plus disorganized. YUP. ADD fits.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Well, InsaneC, she certainly is doing much better in school on a low dose of Vyanese (Is t hat the name?). I haven't noticed any difference in her behavior though. She DID need the label to get school help so we agreed with it...lol. But the doctor wanted to give her a much higher dose. NOT HAPPENING. We gave her a high dose last year and she started talking to herself and being unable to sit still. I really think these doctors tend to way overmedicate. We, as parents, have to decide if we want medication at all and, if we do, we have to be careful and monitor the doctors (as sad as that is).
As soon as we saw trouble last year, we told her not to take that medication again and only decided to try a lower dose stimulant this year, right before school, because she does need to get her grades up and if she can get by on a dose that does not make her hyper, and if it helps her pay attention, then we feel that it's worth it. At the first sign of trouble, the medication will be gone.
 

keista

New Member
We, as parents, have to decide if we want medication at all and, if we do, we have to be careful and monitor the doctors (as sad as that is).
I don't think this statement could ever be repeated too much.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
she certainly is doing much better in school on a low dose of Vyanese (Is t hat the name?). I haven't noticed any difference in her behavior though.

That would be "normal". The medications can do wonders for focus/attention/concentration - call it what you will. But generally speaking, medications don't affect the "executive functions"... so, the issues with organization etc. do not go away, other than to the extent that they are affected by the focus issue.

For example - without medications, I can put something down and have no idea what I did with it... on medications, I'll still put it down (instead of away - bad mommy!), but I can actually remember, retrace my steps if I have to, so I have half a hope of being on top of stuff. The medications don't make it easier to be organized, but they do take the edge off of the complete chaos.

Executive functions are handed by teaching, by accommodations, and by maturity - by about age 25, for many people the symptoms are reduced. I didn't actually need medications until I was married with two kids, one turning into a difficult child... and just couldn't hold it all together any more!
 
Top