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<blockquote data-quote="Malika" data-source="post: 461843" data-attributes="member: 11227"><p>Hear, hear, MWM! Not sure if you say that in the States - it's what the strange parliamentarians all say at the House of Commons in London when they agree with something <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> You seem to me to be talking very good sense, <strong>based on your experience</strong>.</p><p>Time will be helpful in terms of revealing things in terms of J. It truly does look to me like ADHD plus ODD, except that I get the feeling that ODD isn't set in stone and can be modified, maybe even overturned, by therapy or treatment. I've already seen a big dimunition in it based on me changing my behaviour with him. At the same time, I can't be complacent. This anti-social, worrying behaviour of his will come out of nowhere (seemingly), out of left field and, just when I am thinking "oh things are basically fine with this very spirited child", wham, something will happen to take the wind out of my sails.</p><p>Yesterday a good case in point. He didn't go to the childminder's on Saturday as we had the neuro-psychologist exam (for what it was worth - she basically just administered the WPSII intelligence/skills test, I have realised; oh well!) so, because I have <strong>so</strong> much work at the moment, he went yesterday. This childminder seems to have dropped out of heaven, frankly. She seems to understand J and how he works and they do all these great things - basically he just gets taken along with her family and they keep horses and are mad about riding. Yesterday he rode a pony, apparently all by himself... Anyway, when I picked him up, she said that he had been absolutely delightful, no trouble whatsever, good as gold, etc, etc. One might say, why wouldn't he be, spending a completely enjoyable day with people who obviously like and accept him? Before we left, however, she did give him various sweets (which I never give him, just chocolate bars meant for children, with milk and no additives) and I wonder whether that was related to what subsequently happened...</p><p>Arriving back home, he wanted of course to play with the children. I said okay, he could until supper was ready. The dynamic had changed because an older girl cousin had come to stay with them and they were now sitting outside their house engaged in pureeing horse chestnuts (!) rather than playing. I left J to go up to the house to leave our things etc and told him I would be back. When I returned five minutes later, he was swinging on a fence some way from them and they all called out to me "He won't leave us alone! He's been throwing stones at us!" - rather a change from the previous two times when they were all playing together rowdily but very happily... Talking to J about it (and frankly just telling him, which made him cry but he really has to know this, that if he throws stones at children they will not want to be his friends), he said he did it because they did not want to play with him because they were engaged on their activity - this I can recognise; feeling hurt, he lashes out. But worrying, throwing stones. I don't know if he actually hit them or was just throwing in their direction - I suspect the latter, otherwise I would have heard about it. </p><p>So... there's definitely something going on. It then started raining, as luck would have it, so the children got called in and I brought J home. Accompanied of course by a fit of crying. When I talked to him about the stone throwing, and why it was not good, he again got upset and at one point said to me "I don't want you as a mummy - I want to go back to the creche!" He has never said that before... he never talks about his adoption, or having come from the creche, but he has obviously taken it all in... I went downstairs, saying I didn't want to be spoken to like that. Eventually, he calmed down and reverted to "sweet J", who really is so different from "nasty J" and I find it quite hard to reconcile the two... When I asked him if he had been good to talk to me like that, he said "sorry, Mummy" and wanted to give me a hug and seemed genuinely sad and sorry.</p><p>Of course his story as an adopted child is also relevant, has to be... I obviously have no knowing what part it plays. Also his particular character and temperament. He's so firey... and I'm not firey enough. It's a better approach to take with him. Last night he wanted to put his roller skates on (he's just learning to walk in them, before starting roller skate lessons in a couple of weeks) just as I was running his bath. When I said no he couldn't he of course started complaining and protesting. Usually he would have insisted, gone on and on (negative persistence) - but I guess I was just feeling tired of these prolonged semi-battles so I walked into the room, picked him up and said in a large, booming, jokey voice "YOU WILL NOT PUT YOUR SKATES ON! LITTLE BOYS CALLED J WILL NOW HAVE THEIR BATH!" and he <strong>loved </strong>it... immediately accepted it his bath and to relinquish the skates and asked me several times later to do "the voice". After the bath when I asked him, he meekly put away his skates without insisting to try them on (also new)...</p><p>He needs a dad, I think... A kind of firm but loving dad. Not the one he's got, alas. What to do? Unfortunately it's not one of those things you can arrange at will.</p><p></p><p>Forgive th e long post. Insane, we posted at the same time so I didn't see yours. You said</p><p></p><p>"nothing about J really adds up for ADHD either. No matter what materials you give her on ADHD, it doesn't match up with J. "</p><p></p><p>Ummm.... I'm afraid, respectfully and in the light of my knowledge, I have to disagree! J fully fulfils the Connors diagnostic tool. The only confusing element about him is that his concentration seems okay - but then I am just told that that is because he is in the hyperactivity/impulsivity group. The teacher disagrees because.... well, what I can I say? She had never heard of ADHD before I arrived and apparently spent a lot of energy in the past insisting that a dyslexic child wasn't dyslexic. Also because he sits and concentrates reasonably well - the psychiatrist also tells me this is not unusual for some ADHD kids... I have lent her <strong>one</strong> book about ADHD - no other materials! - and I think any objective analysis would say that J fits the global picture given in the book. Her objection, when I quizzed her about it, seems to come down to one thing: that in the book they apparently say that ADHD kids have a verbal skill that outdoes their performance skill, whereas she says the opposite is true of J. And I am not sure she is right about that...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Malika, post: 461843, member: 11227"] Hear, hear, MWM! Not sure if you say that in the States - it's what the strange parliamentarians all say at the House of Commons in London when they agree with something :) You seem to me to be talking very good sense, [B]based on your experience[/B]. Time will be helpful in terms of revealing things in terms of J. It truly does look to me like ADHD plus ODD, except that I get the feeling that ODD isn't set in stone and can be modified, maybe even overturned, by therapy or treatment. I've already seen a big dimunition in it based on me changing my behaviour with him. At the same time, I can't be complacent. This anti-social, worrying behaviour of his will come out of nowhere (seemingly), out of left field and, just when I am thinking "oh things are basically fine with this very spirited child", wham, something will happen to take the wind out of my sails. Yesterday a good case in point. He didn't go to the childminder's on Saturday as we had the neuro-psychologist exam (for what it was worth - she basically just administered the WPSII intelligence/skills test, I have realised; oh well!) so, because I have [B]so[/B] much work at the moment, he went yesterday. This childminder seems to have dropped out of heaven, frankly. She seems to understand J and how he works and they do all these great things - basically he just gets taken along with her family and they keep horses and are mad about riding. Yesterday he rode a pony, apparently all by himself... Anyway, when I picked him up, she said that he had been absolutely delightful, no trouble whatsever, good as gold, etc, etc. One might say, why wouldn't he be, spending a completely enjoyable day with people who obviously like and accept him? Before we left, however, she did give him various sweets (which I never give him, just chocolate bars meant for children, with milk and no additives) and I wonder whether that was related to what subsequently happened... Arriving back home, he wanted of course to play with the children. I said okay, he could until supper was ready. The dynamic had changed because an older girl cousin had come to stay with them and they were now sitting outside their house engaged in pureeing horse chestnuts (!) rather than playing. I left J to go up to the house to leave our things etc and told him I would be back. When I returned five minutes later, he was swinging on a fence some way from them and they all called out to me "He won't leave us alone! He's been throwing stones at us!" - rather a change from the previous two times when they were all playing together rowdily but very happily... Talking to J about it (and frankly just telling him, which made him cry but he really has to know this, that if he throws stones at children they will not want to be his friends), he said he did it because they did not want to play with him because they were engaged on their activity - this I can recognise; feeling hurt, he lashes out. But worrying, throwing stones. I don't know if he actually hit them or was just throwing in their direction - I suspect the latter, otherwise I would have heard about it. So... there's definitely something going on. It then started raining, as luck would have it, so the children got called in and I brought J home. Accompanied of course by a fit of crying. When I talked to him about the stone throwing, and why it was not good, he again got upset and at one point said to me "I don't want you as a mummy - I want to go back to the creche!" He has never said that before... he never talks about his adoption, or having come from the creche, but he has obviously taken it all in... I went downstairs, saying I didn't want to be spoken to like that. Eventually, he calmed down and reverted to "sweet J", who really is so different from "nasty J" and I find it quite hard to reconcile the two... When I asked him if he had been good to talk to me like that, he said "sorry, Mummy" and wanted to give me a hug and seemed genuinely sad and sorry. Of course his story as an adopted child is also relevant, has to be... I obviously have no knowing what part it plays. Also his particular character and temperament. He's so firey... and I'm not firey enough. It's a better approach to take with him. Last night he wanted to put his roller skates on (he's just learning to walk in them, before starting roller skate lessons in a couple of weeks) just as I was running his bath. When I said no he couldn't he of course started complaining and protesting. Usually he would have insisted, gone on and on (negative persistence) - but I guess I was just feeling tired of these prolonged semi-battles so I walked into the room, picked him up and said in a large, booming, jokey voice "YOU WILL NOT PUT YOUR SKATES ON! LITTLE BOYS CALLED J WILL NOW HAVE THEIR BATH!" and he [B]loved [/B]it... immediately accepted it his bath and to relinquish the skates and asked me several times later to do "the voice". After the bath when I asked him, he meekly put away his skates without insisting to try them on (also new)... He needs a dad, I think... A kind of firm but loving dad. Not the one he's got, alas. What to do? Unfortunately it's not one of those things you can arrange at will. Forgive th e long post. Insane, we posted at the same time so I didn't see yours. You said "nothing about J really adds up for ADHD either. No matter what materials you give her on ADHD, it doesn't match up with J. " Ummm.... I'm afraid, respectfully and in the light of my knowledge, I have to disagree! J fully fulfils the Connors diagnostic tool. The only confusing element about him is that his concentration seems okay - but then I am just told that that is because he is in the hyperactivity/impulsivity group. The teacher disagrees because.... well, what I can I say? She had never heard of ADHD before I arrived and apparently spent a lot of energy in the past insisting that a dyslexic child wasn't dyslexic. Also because he sits and concentrates reasonably well - the psychiatrist also tells me this is not unusual for some ADHD kids... I have lent her [B]one[/B] book about ADHD - no other materials! - and I think any objective analysis would say that J fits the global picture given in the book. Her objection, when I quizzed her about it, seems to come down to one thing: that in the book they apparently say that ADHD kids have a verbal skill that outdoes their performance skill, whereas she says the opposite is true of J. And I am not sure she is right about that... [/QUOTE]
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