Brexit
- Thread starter Malika
- Start date
pasajes4
Well-Known Member
Esther we are in agreement with you. The fear is that in the United States we have a candidate that is spewing hatred against different races, religions, and sexual orientation. It attracts people who would like to eradicate anyone who is not just like them. I understand that things have gotten out of control in Europe but there was no clear cut plan on how to fund this new independent England.
Estherfromjerusalem
Well-Known Member
I understand that most of you are in the U.S. and that the politics in the U.S. are obviously far more relevant to you than to the minority of us. But nevertheless, I thought that politics was a forbidden subject here, and as I said, I have refrained over the years from pouring out my heart at the terrible tragedies that happen here in my country, and the political and religious ramifications, even though they cause me great heartache. I don't want to start a political thread, or an argument. One of the wonderful things about this place is that because most -- almost all -- people here are very very careful not to talk about politics or about religion, there is truly a calm and supportive atmosphere here. I know that I don't contribute much here these days, but a day doesn't go past that I don't come here and read the posts, and I still feel involved even if my difficult child is now 29 and on the other side of the world.
And yes, Malika, I apologise. You are right: The watercooler is for topics not connected to difficult children. I agree that the subject of Brexit is fascinating (I was born in England and lived there until I was 30), but I don't think conductdisorders is the place for discussing anything political. Sorry, just my opinion.
Love, Esther
And yes, Malika, I apologise. You are right: The watercooler is for topics not connected to difficult children. I agree that the subject of Brexit is fascinating (I was born in England and lived there until I was 30), but I don't think conductdisorders is the place for discussing anything political. Sorry, just my opinion.
Love, Esther
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Oh dear. I am a Brexit fanatic, but I want everybody to feel comfortable even knowing that is not possible. Before the thread closes down I will opine.
I disagree with Going:
From that point of view, there are many on the left who believe that globalization and the blurring of national borders and identities has served most the movement of capital to serve the interests of corporations and the financial class, at the cost of protections for individuals and families. There are, after all, more important things than money. Identity is not all bad. It is not only regressive to feel ethnic identity.
Over the course of my lifetime life in California has changed as to be almost unrecognizable. The Bay Area has been ground zero for sweeping cultural changes like post-war expansion, beatniks, hippies, (what was it called, the acquisitive me types, oh yeah, yuppies), Silicon Valley and now the newest influx of computer and biotech and global financial types that have driven the most modest Bay Area house to a million dollars. (My parents bought theirs for 9k.)
To say nothing about the global migration to California which has changed the politics exponentially turning it into a blue not red state, and into a melting pot like no other place. All of that is in my own lifespan.
The thing is, I have changed right along with the State.
But that does not mean that it is wrong to react with discomfort or sadness or fear, with what one has already lost. To respond by doing what one can to change course, to stop the inevitable loss of more, how is that wrong?
There are varied views in the states about Brexit and most of us are very interested.
I disagree with Going:
Brexit was supported by both left, center and conservative votes. Left-wing figures supported brexit for among other reasons because of the belief that the nation-state has been the entity that has so far given the most protection to the worker, than any other form of government.
From that point of view, there are many on the left who believe that globalization and the blurring of national borders and identities has served most the movement of capital to serve the interests of corporations and the financial class, at the cost of protections for individuals and families. There are, after all, more important things than money. Identity is not all bad. It is not only regressive to feel ethnic identity.
Well, I come from these people too, Going. While I feel superior to know one I am proud of my people. I believe that the culturally valued impulse to serve others, to share, to think and create and to contribute, has served us as a people for centuries. I will die with this belief which has guided my life. Is this ethnic pride? Then I am guilty.
I did not know this. I read that Cameron's decision to step down was a decision that seemed to suggest that the ruling classes were accepting the people's will.
Do we not decide each of us what offends us, and is it not our right to do so? I have not been offended by this thread (except maybe by the implied assumption that everybody that voted for Brexit is a racist fundamentalist).
Over the course of my lifetime life in California has changed as to be almost unrecognizable. The Bay Area has been ground zero for sweeping cultural changes like post-war expansion, beatniks, hippies, (what was it called, the acquisitive me types, oh yeah, yuppies), Silicon Valley and now the newest influx of computer and biotech and global financial types that have driven the most modest Bay Area house to a million dollars. (My parents bought theirs for 9k.)
To say nothing about the global migration to California which has changed the politics exponentially turning it into a blue not red state, and into a melting pot like no other place. All of that is in my own lifespan.
The thing is, I have changed right along with the State.
But that does not mean that it is wrong to react with discomfort or sadness or fear, with what one has already lost. To respond by doing what one can to change course, to stop the inevitable loss of more, how is that wrong?
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Hi Esther. I love it that you are here. I want you here more, not less, if it was up to me.
So, actually, by writing this, I fear I am even changing in my perspective about Brexit, because I am a person who believes in change and embracing it, even though I can understand fear and reaction. So, as a consequence of this thread already I am gaining in both understanding of myself and in my capacity for compassion for people who may be different than I am, for whom I did not feel sufficient compassion before.
This will all be decided for us. By whether people keep posting on this thread or whether the mods shut it down or not.
But in a sense what is happening here is the same thing that Brexit was about. We have an identity here on CD. Some of us are in favor of expanding and changing it. Others believe that such an endeavor puts in danger the identity we have and need and love.
In some sense what we go through as parents and families with our difficult children is the same kind of thing. Power struggles over changing or staying the same. Negotiating these struggles.
So, in a fascinating way this thread is mirroring the whole Brexit debate, at least in my own mind.
Except for this: To me, Conduct Disorders is a place to discuss identity and change. And to me, Brexit is about that.
We are discussing and identity and change of political and cultural phenomena. That can well be dangerous ground. I can see that.
I for one would welcome such posts from you. I respect you and I know I would grow and learn, even though our viewpoints would differ. I would grow stronger and wiser because I would have to take in your point of view. I believe we would know each other better and be closer and stronger--knowing more.
So, actually, by writing this, I fear I am even changing in my perspective about Brexit, because I am a person who believes in change and embracing it, even though I can understand fear and reaction. So, as a consequence of this thread already I am gaining in both understanding of myself and in my capacity for compassion for people who may be different than I am, for whom I did not feel sufficient compassion before.
I am reading this as an opportunity to learn from people I trust and respect, not as an argument. You see, I read so many news and financial stories, but I do not know those people. Hearing your views and experience, I can take it to my heart and it makes for a completely different kind of learning.
I understand your point of view. I respect it. At the same time, I believe that I would grow from hearing your experience because I respect you and care about you.
This will all be decided for us. By whether people keep posting on this thread or whether the mods shut it down or not.
But in a sense what is happening here is the same thing that Brexit was about. We have an identity here on CD. Some of us are in favor of expanding and changing it. Others believe that such an endeavor puts in danger the identity we have and need and love.
In some sense what we go through as parents and families with our difficult children is the same kind of thing. Power struggles over changing or staying the same. Negotiating these struggles.
I did not know this, Esther. Someday I would love to learn how it was for you to leave and how it is for you to have viewed the changes in Europe from your perspective. But then, again, that is the thing in question. If that would be a suitable endeavor to the forum and our obligation to respect the boundaries of the place, the point that Esther is making. That all of us, each of us, for our devotion to the forum, needs to exercise self-control to protect it.
So, in a fascinating way this thread is mirroring the whole Brexit debate, at least in my own mind.
I agree with Esther.
Except for this: To me, Conduct Disorders is a place to discuss identity and change. And to me, Brexit is about that.
We are discussing and identity and change of political and cultural phenomena. That can well be dangerous ground. I can see that.
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
That's my fear as well. What will happen to those who come after us, as well as the young men and women now here, who happen to have a different skin color and/or worship differently, or love differently.
And Esther, my mother is 81. She's from England. She's in shock. Not only that, nearly h er entire family and my father's entire family died, either in the pogroms or the Sho'ah. I grew up hearing their stories. And here I am...fearing it'll happen again.
Most of my mother's family were slaughtered by Nazi sympathisers in Lithuania before the Germans invaded. Plenty of Lithuanians were slaughtered as well. There were vile war crimes committed by both sides in those ghetto uprisings.
I do understand, Esther, and i am sorry that this topic upset or frightened you. I deal with that feeling on the board quite often when the mention of certain majority faiths come up, both as a former Jew, and as an atheist. I just "read around" them.
And Esther, my mother is 81. She's from England. She's in shock. Not only that, nearly h er entire family and my father's entire family died, either in the pogroms or the Sho'ah. I grew up hearing their stories. And here I am...fearing it'll happen again.
Most of my mother's family were slaughtered by Nazi sympathisers in Lithuania before the Germans invaded. Plenty of Lithuanians were slaughtered as well. There were vile war crimes committed by both sides in those ghetto uprisings.
I do understand, Esther, and i am sorry that this topic upset or frightened you. I deal with that feeling on the board quite often when the mention of certain majority faiths come up, both as a former Jew, and as an atheist. I just "read around" them.
Estherfromjerusalem
Well-Known Member
Wow Copa! Nobody has ever taken me so seriously before!
Since I am sooooo old (71 next week -- isn't that ghastly!) I can remember England as it was before it became so cosmopolitan, before the waves of immigration. I was born in July 1945, just after the war. Great Britain was a different place then than it is now. It was calm and peaceful (although there were undertones of racism then too, but then as an island Britain has always been a bit xenophobic). I go back for a short visit every two or three years, and it is changing all the time. But since I don't live there, I don't feel qualified to really write anything specific. I did follow the campaigns before the referendum and I could hear arguments for and against on both sides. I don't really know what to think now. I know that when the UK decided to keep the pound and not go over to the euro, I felt it was a good decision. I feel sad thinking that France no longer has the franc, German no mark, Austria no schilling etc. etc. The currency of a country is so much an expression of its character. Why was it necessary for each country to sacrifice part of its character just in order to be part of the European Union? It's not all about money -- or maybe it is? Money and power? Maybe. I think the best thing about the UK being part of the European Union was the fact that war between European nations was avoided. I certainly hope that doesn't change.
I didn't mean to write all that! I'm not going to write any more.
Love, Esther
Since I am sooooo old (71 next week -- isn't that ghastly!) I can remember England as it was before it became so cosmopolitan, before the waves of immigration. I was born in July 1945, just after the war. Great Britain was a different place then than it is now. It was calm and peaceful (although there were undertones of racism then too, but then as an island Britain has always been a bit xenophobic). I go back for a short visit every two or three years, and it is changing all the time. But since I don't live there, I don't feel qualified to really write anything specific. I did follow the campaigns before the referendum and I could hear arguments for and against on both sides. I don't really know what to think now. I know that when the UK decided to keep the pound and not go over to the euro, I felt it was a good decision. I feel sad thinking that France no longer has the franc, German no mark, Austria no schilling etc. etc. The currency of a country is so much an expression of its character. Why was it necessary for each country to sacrifice part of its character just in order to be part of the European Union? It's not all about money -- or maybe it is? Money and power? Maybe. I think the best thing about the UK being part of the European Union was the fact that war between European nations was avoided. I certainly hope that doesn't change.
I didn't mean to write all that! I'm not going to write any more.
Love, Esther
Estherfromjerusalem
Well-Known Member
Going North, I don't understand. Why does your mother fear that "it'll happen again." Where? When? Why? Do you mean in the USA?
Love, Esther
Love, Esther
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
You know, I have read the perspective that already the existence of a United Europe has served a huge benefit, to ameliorate post-cold war tensions, integrate Eastern Europe, and diminish century old nationalistic disputes that had never been dissipated.
I also read that the maintenance of the british pound going forward would have undermined a united europe, not
strengthen it, and that britain would never forfeit the pound. From this point of view the leaving of britain was an inevitability, for structural and financial reasons not for cultural ones.
That is one reason I am uncomfortable with casting dispersions on a brexit vote, as motivated only by reactionary reasons.
I do agree that this may well be a defining moment within our lifetimes. It is very, very hard for me to not comment upon this. Nobody else in my orbit who will talk about this rationally is available to me, and I am trying hard to not talk about it at work, although I did one day lapse.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Oh Esther!! You got older than me since your last signature update!! Good!!
I find the views you express quite sophisticated and not unlike my own which I as well consider sophisticated and nuanced. Smiling again.
My mother until she died sometimes called Veterans Day here in the United States, Armistice Day, the name until after WWII. What I am trying to say is that I for one, never ever acknowledged how much my own identity was shaped by events in Europe in the context of which I was born, that occurred before I was born.
However much we agree that this discussion is not part of CD, I believe it is an essential one to have. Somewhere. Because as long as I remain ignorant I am dangerous. That to me is the topic at hand.
Thank you everybody. I have thoroughly enjoyed this.
Love,
COPA
I am waaaay behind you. *Lying through my teeth.
How can this be so?
I find the views you express quite sophisticated and not unlike my own which I as well consider sophisticated and nuanced. Smiling again.
I agree and from what I have read, so do many other thoughtful people (like us on this forum).
I agree with this, too.
I agree with this too. The movement of money across borders, the movement of workers, the standardization of laws that affect money and movement of capital. Except this utterly important thing:
I read this week that the 20th century is considered by some to be a century of betrayal. (In an essay by the anthropologist Gregory Bateson.) He says this because of what happened in the Treaty of Versailles after WWI which dealt with the terms of the Armistice and the belief by some that the 20th century was so bloody because of how that was handled.
My mother until she died sometimes called Veterans Day here in the United States, Armistice Day, the name until after WWII. What I am trying to say is that I for one, never ever acknowledged how much my own identity was shaped by events in Europe in the context of which I was born, that occurred before I was born.
However much we agree that this discussion is not part of CD, I believe it is an essential one to have. Somewhere. Because as long as I remain ignorant I am dangerous. That to me is the topic at hand.
Thank you everybody. I have thoroughly enjoyed this.
Love,
COPA
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
Yes. In the USA. My mother grew up under Hitler's bombs. She has terrible PTSD as a result.
I do fear, that if the wrong nominee is elected, he and his followers would do everything in their power to elimate members of one religious group, as well as persecuting other groups based on their sexual orientationn, gender status, and race.
It would affect the USA, our economy and international standing, certainly, but more than that, it might force us into a second civil war, with devastating effects on all involved.
I grew up with very elderly relatives with numbers on their arms. Nearly all of them atheists because they couldn't believe that Ha'Shem would do that to his chosen people. I heard from their mouths what lead up to the Holocaust, not just what happened in the camps and stories of the liberation.
Estherfromjerusalem
Well-Known Member
I feel guilty -- I haven't updated my profile signature for five years, so 66 is now 71. Each time I try to edit it for some reason it doesn't work.
As for the rest -- Copa, I'm pleased you enjoyed it. Now we have no choice but to sit back and wait and see what unfolds "over there." It will be interesting, that's certain.
Britain was good to my parents, and my father never allowed us his daughters to say anything critical or negative about Britain, since it was the only country that allowed him to escape Germany and gave him a home (he had relatives, cousins, in England who guaranteed him that he wouldn't be a burden on the British economy (!), otherwise he wouldn't have been allowed entry). My mother was allowed to enter Britain because she came as a domestic servant.
Well, they became British citizens, and actually my father was awarded the OBE (Officer of the Order of the British Empire) by the Queen at Buckingham Palace when he retired, in recognition of his work for the blind, for over 40 years.
So I certainly wish Britain the very best.
Love, Esther
As for the rest -- Copa, I'm pleased you enjoyed it. Now we have no choice but to sit back and wait and see what unfolds "over there." It will be interesting, that's certain.
Britain was good to my parents, and my father never allowed us his daughters to say anything critical or negative about Britain, since it was the only country that allowed him to escape Germany and gave him a home (he had relatives, cousins, in England who guaranteed him that he wouldn't be a burden on the British economy (!), otherwise he wouldn't have been allowed entry). My mother was allowed to enter Britain because she came as a domestic servant.
Well, they became British citizens, and actually my father was awarded the OBE (Officer of the Order of the British Empire) by the Queen at Buckingham Palace when he retired, in recognition of his work for the blind, for over 40 years.
So I certainly wish Britain the very best.
Love, Esther
Estherfromjerusalem
Well-Known Member
Yes, Going North. Let's hope all those fears will prove to be unnecessary when push comes to shove. The unknown is always scary.
Elections are always difficult. Here in Israel we often aren't sure which way to vote, even though we have previous loyalties, but that's not always enough. And I think your present campaign in the US is a particularly difficult one. The world is becoming such a complicated place -- or perhaps it always was and I just didn't see it then.
I must go to sleep -- it's already 2:30 a.m.
Love, Esther
Elections are always difficult. Here in Israel we often aren't sure which way to vote, even though we have previous loyalties, but that's not always enough. And I think your present campaign in the US is a particularly difficult one. The world is becoming such a complicated place -- or perhaps it always was and I just didn't see it then.
I must go to sleep -- it's already 2:30 a.m.
Love, Esther
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Like California. I was a post-war baby too. California began to change at a great velocity because of the War. California ports were used to fight the pacific front, and a huge influx of people came from the East and South, principally, to work in shipbuilding.
It seems like the velocity of changes just kept building and building until sometimes it feels like it will explode in one--like you cannot hold together as the same person.
My mother her whole adult life feared that some day this country would come after us. Isn't that something?
We spoke more than once about exit plans. How we would flee. One reason I sought citizenship in another country was this. The basic sense of unease we felt here. I am not sure if we carried this with us as part of our character from the old country. That is one reason why I have been able to identify so strongly with the immigrants to California and the United States. My mother never lost this affinity --the belief that "us" referred as much to our identity as unwanted and insecure, as to any specific cultural identity.
To me that is interesting.
In fact my family such as it is now, M and I and my son, is an amalgam of 3 marginal peoples.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Goodnight Esther.
Did your parents immigrate to Israel with you? If so, how did that go? What a lot of change in their lifetimes. I wonder how we bear it.
Your father and mother must have been so proud. Imagine accomplishing that in a lifetime!
Did your parents immigrate to Israel with you? If so, how did that go? What a lot of change in their lifetimes. I wonder how we bear it.
PiscesMom
Active Member
very interesting reading everyone's perspectives! what strange times we live in. i am very liberal, and if i was a Brit, i would have voted to stay. Still, tweets from the likes of JK Rowling and the like left me cold...celebs with millions and billions of dollars don't understand the 99%. That the NHS is underfunded would not be a concern of hers, for example.
Malika
Well-Known Member
What disturbs me most, personally, about Brexit is the fact that it cuts us off from Europe which means, for one thing, the many human rights and social protections that the EU gives. The vote to leave seemed to be a vote for prejudice and insularity - and for ignorance since, it turns out, many people who voted to leave are now incredibly stating they regret it and did not realise (despite the months of campaigning from both sides) what the economic repercussions would be... A petition has been started - last I heard it had over 2 million signatures - demanding a second referendum; under UK law, a petition with over 100,000 signatories has to be debated in Parliament but most commentators are very doubtful that this could actually lead to a second referendum.
A much more likely scenario, in my view, is that we will exit the EU and Britain's currently flourishing economy and full employment will gradually flounder and collapse until a government eventually gets elected on the promise that it will rejoin the EU.. this is more likely to be a manoeuvre of the left, since the right is so deeply split about the issue. David Cameron has, again in my view obviously, been hoist by his own petard since he made the referendum an election promise to capture the votes of the far right and the Eurosceptics, never dreaming that the referendum would actually come out with a majority vote to leave the EU. His was a cynical gesture and he has reaped its fruits... such is politics.
A much more likely scenario, in my view, is that we will exit the EU and Britain's currently flourishing economy and full employment will gradually flounder and collapse until a government eventually gets elected on the promise that it will rejoin the EU.. this is more likely to be a manoeuvre of the left, since the right is so deeply split about the issue. David Cameron has, again in my view obviously, been hoist by his own petard since he made the referendum an election promise to capture the votes of the far right and the Eurosceptics, never dreaming that the referendum would actually come out with a majority vote to leave the EU. His was a cynical gesture and he has reaped its fruits... such is politics.
Estherfromjerusalem
Well-Known Member
I think if I was in Britain, I would have voted to stay in the EU. "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know." Malika, your take on it is pessimistic, but realistic. However, it is obvious that people who don't live in Britain don't understand the atmosphere and the sentiments of the people in the street, their "gut" feelings that made them vote the way they did. It seems to me that some people are yearning for a Britain that used to exist but has changed and will never return. The commentators have said that it seems that older people voted to leave the EU and younger people voted to stay, which I find interesting. Our radio here in Israel doesn't stop talking about all the ramifications.
Just to answer your personal question, Copa: I came with my husband and four small children to live in Israel when I was 29, and we had four more children here. My two sisters were already living here. My parents waited until my father retired from the job he had held ever since arriving in England in 1939. All their three children and all their grandchildren were living here in Israel, so in 1984 they sold their home in London and came here to Jerusalem to live out the rest of their days near their family. Yes, so many changes in one lifetime, but they were content and grateful for what they had. And for us, who had grown up in a two-generation family (only parents and children) it was just thrilling to become a four-generation family, and to give my parents "naches" (I don't know how to translate that -- it's the pleasure of enjoying one's children and grandchildren, it's a Yiddish word, actually Hebrew "nachat").
Have a good week, everyone!
Love, Esther
Just to answer your personal question, Copa: I came with my husband and four small children to live in Israel when I was 29, and we had four more children here. My two sisters were already living here. My parents waited until my father retired from the job he had held ever since arriving in England in 1939. All their three children and all their grandchildren were living here in Israel, so in 1984 they sold their home in London and came here to Jerusalem to live out the rest of their days near their family. Yes, so many changes in one lifetime, but they were content and grateful for what they had. And for us, who had grown up in a two-generation family (only parents and children) it was just thrilling to become a four-generation family, and to give my parents "naches" (I don't know how to translate that -- it's the pleasure of enjoying one's children and grandchildren, it's a Yiddish word, actually Hebrew "nachat").
Have a good week, everyone!
Love, Esther
