Brexit

[GoingNorth]

LOL, Esther. "Naches" is the one Yiddish word I have the most trouble translating as well.

 

[Malika]

Yes, my take on it is pessimistic. Maybe I am and will be proven to be quite wrong! It is a little hard to see that, though - Britain is now a very uncertain place and financial markets, etc, do not like uncertainty. The whole thing is almost like a skit out of the Marx brothers - it has now emerged that the "promises" on which many people apparently based their vote to leave, that £350 million pounds extra a day could be funnelled into the NHS with all the spare cash that would be floating around once we didn't have to pay into the EU and that immigration would be dramatically cut have turned out to be lies that could never be delivered. A bit late in the day to find that out, methinks! Never trust a politician who comes wooing you in the night with promises of riches and roses, I guess is the moral of the story.

 

[GoingNorth]

Yes, I heard about that with the 350 pounds sterling as well. He was quite blase' when he admitted that it was a false promise, too.

It also puts Britain at the back of the queue when it comes to dealing with the US financially, which is a big hit for both Britain and the US.

Depending on whom we elect in Nov., our political relations with Britain may remain as good as they are now, but our trade relations are going to change, as will our military relations as regarding US military bases over there, in my opinion.

 

[Copabanana]

It seems to me that some people are yearning for a Britain that used to exist but has changed and will never return.

I believe this too.

From afar, I have not seen the leave or brexit position as purely insular, reactionary and anti-immigration. I have seen it in more class terms. My sense is that globalism has benefited some but had hurt many. And I see the brexit vote as more through that lens. Yes. A desire to return to a time where one understood life, felt more control, less victimized by forces one did not agree with, out of ones control, from another land and culture even. In the case of Britain, being dictated to by a prior enemy. Yes. The older people have not forgotten the wars and their historical cost.

I see Brexit as the desire to regain control over ones life and the terms one lives under. I see it as a conscious decision to risk financial disaster to regain and gain other things that are as important or more.

As far as young against old, I see this as class-based too. It is like here in California where people are forced out of long-time neighborhoods no longer affordable because immigration and the influx of highly educated young people who disdain you, are aligned with values one no one understands.

I am from such an area. While I have moved on, I feel sad that where my roots are no longer exists.

Honestly, I can understand Brexit. My sympathies lie with these people. My hopes too. I believe Brexit is more a vote of lack of confidence in those global leaders who have thought not at all on the consequences for the vast majority of people whom they represent and who decide for the deep pocket interests instead.

While I understand that in the long run global integration may benefit many in the long run, as individuals we live in the short run, and it is human nature to protect what we have and mourn what we lose.

 

[Malika]

Yes... strange as it may seem, I also understand those wishes and feelings, even if I do not exactly share them. I understand the sense some people have in the UK of wanting to "regain control", of getting their "own country" back... as you say, it is a common feeling among peoples. Why, then, the sadness and disarray that I and many of my compatriots feel at Brexit? I think because in the end that feeling is largely mythic and because when you cut yourselves off from connectedness with others, the feeling is one of claustrophia, isolation, a kind of false pride that doesn't lead anywhere healthy or good. After all, Britain is a deeply multi-cultural society and is not now going to stop being so - that forgotten dream of pre-war Britain in which the overwhelming majority of your fellows were white and British for generations back is never going to come again. Britain is now a melting pot, just like America. Belonging to Europe brought us all sorts of opportunities and benefits that will now become apparent through their loss. Britain is now a poorer place, spiritually as much as economically.

Them's me views - and just me views :-~)

 

[BusynMember]

I couldn't agree with you more, Malika. Many here are also wishing to go back to a time when the U.S. was mostly white Christian and they tend to be older and in my opinion more afraid of change.

Bit the world moves forward, the young are in control and will outlive the old, and we will never be a white Christian country again. It's one thing to talk about deporting illegals, it's another to figure out how to do it. It's unrealistic. Trump's wall will never happen either. Nonsense. He will fight even his own party for a Muslim ban.

Hitler lost and died a long time ago. Some keep trying to resurrect parts of him, but the young won't allow it, thank God. They are growing up in a diverse America with less formal religious ties and more tolerance for different types of people, such as the LbTG community.

I have hope for the world. The young, the future do not buy into these ideas. And this older bird sides with our young.

The past was good...until it wasn't. ..

 

[Copabanana]

I think because in the end that feeling is largely mythic and because when you cut yourselves off from connectedness with others,

I agree with this.

I think (hope) Brexit may be a wake-up call to global leaders in one sense.

Look at what happened in 2006-2010 with the financial markets. In the area where I lived home prices dropped up to 75 percent. In M's family, recent immigrants all, brothers and sisters were losing houses right and left.

And then 10 years later, the financial markets are doing the same crazy thing with securities and bundling loans and mortgages as caused the disaster in the past. Real salaries are falling for the bulk of people, who more and more are falling behind. The so-called advantages of globalization and integration are accruing to a certain class of people--the well-educated, and already advantaged.

There is no way that I can argue that good will come of this, but one good thing that could come of it is an understanding and appreciation that the world is composed not only of markets and economies but people and families. And all of those people do not have the same values and wants as their leaders. And in social democracies those people sometimes can prevail. To discount their views as foolish and inferior can sometimes come back to bite one. And it has.

The more and more that the elites react with disdain, mocking their stupid and backward constituents who do not understand anything worth understanding, the more I fear they are missing the point. Even if Britain was able to get a do-over, it will not protect us here in the USA, if our leaders continue to misunderstand the will of the people.

It is not only reactionary fear and racism. The people cannot be dismissed entirely by denigrating them. That is what I think.

 

[GoingNorth]

SWOT, with all due respect, the newer White Supremacist groups are made up of younger (mostly) males. The divide seems to be between urban and rural, and between educated and uneducated.


In 1933, it was primarily the younger individuals who followed Hitler. The older generation just wanted to be left to their farms and businesses.

I have a rather different viewpoint on WWII, between my mother spending her childhood in England during the Blitz, and my living in what was then West Germany, and having a chance to speak with many elderly German nationals who had lived through what they call "The Bad Times". They were not fans of Hitler. In fact, they nearly starved to death. They attended rallies and parades and cheered and waved banners under pain of death.

I've been to several of the camps. I've studied the history of Europe during that period. It's the history of my family.

You are being, in my humble opinion, overly-optimistic if you think it couldn't happen again.

 

[Copabanana]

I wrote in an earlier post that my mother her entire life feared the abuse of power in the United States and feared that it would be directed against us.

Now that I am with M, in one part of my mind I am preparing mentally for the need to leave here, in case his position becomes untenable, unsafe or if in fact he is deported. I will follow him.

However untenable is the deportation of 12 million people (which would devastate this economy) stupider things have been done and will be done.

Trump's wall will never happen either. Nonsense. He will fight even his own party for a Muslim ban.

This is about power and self-aggrandizement. Trump has a very rigid personality, the way I see it. Have we not seen this movie before? Using the "other" to consolidate power, no matter what are the costs? And there is no reason to believe that it cannot happen here.

Hitler lost and died a long time ago. Some keep trying to resurrect parts of him, but the young won't allow it, thank God.

I agree with Going, SWOT.

The divide seems to be between urban and rural, and between educated and uneducated.

You know, I am as afraid of the young and educated as I am of the uneducated voter.

I find the educated, financially successful young person somewhat frightening in their sense that the world is theirs to exploit--to enjoy and to benefit from without responsibility for anything other than their career track and acquisition of experience and stuff. Actually, I should identify with them, but I do not. My life story was very much along these lines as a self-made person. But the difference is that I never stopped identifying with the powerless and marginalized. I do not see much of that. That frightens me.

I am working with a very nice young man, already a supervisor of professionals in his field, at 32, I think.

He thinks of his life as an upward trajectory of achievement and attainment and acquisition. I made the comment to him: "You know, I think things may happen along the way that will impact your plans."

What I meant was tragedy. Real life. Crisis. Illness. Mistakes. I guess I meant what has happened to me these last few years when I was called to question every single thing I did in my whole life as unimportant, because I betrayed my heart.

His answer to me: Oh. I know I will have to modify my plans, based upon my experience. I already have. I have made career changes which are different from what I had planned and anticipated.

Is this how the young think? How I thought? The complete unawareness that every.single.thing on which we build ourselves can be called into question, and is?

So back to Brexit. Are we in the midst of one of those times, when everything will change, and like for those older Germans with Hitler, they lost control of their lives and endured only to survive?

I am glad I did not have a Brexit vote but I do have a vote here. Honestly. I do not know what I will do. Here I am expressly talking politics. I am filled with doubt. I do not know how best to protect my own interests, my son's and M's. Honestly, I do not.

 

[GoingNorth]

The young and educated, like all young folks, will have unrealistic ideas of life and how they shall live it, UNTIL they discover that, for the most part, life lives THEM!

What bothers me is that the young are willing to "throw away" the generations that came before them. There is no caring or respect for the elderly and sick in many cases.

We (and those older than us), who should be reservoirs of wisdom for those who come after us, are now considered to be parasites.

Even my mother does it when I try to get her to talk about her childhood and youth. "Oh. Why are you interested in those old stories?"

Because, just as you are a part of me, your stories are a part of you, and hence, part of me as well.

 

[Copabanana]

The young and educated, like all young folks, will have unrealistic ideas of life and how they shall live it

So in this sense they are like our difficult children. Is it just that because they are going with the grain of what society sees as valuable and desired, that we do not see (or opine about) their tunnel thinking:

UNTIL they discover that, for the most part, life lives THEM!

This is so true. Something I was forced to confront about myself.

I was one of those young and educated, with unrealistic ideas about life, that life would deliver the payoff: happiness and contentment if only I succeeded. Not so. While I do not regret it--but I see it as only one way among hundreds of equally valid lives I could have lived--I see the cost. Now I do.

Life lives them. What a great way to put it.

So what does it say about Brexit, going and others? I still assert that myopia and racism were not the only drivers to opposition, but a calling out of leadership to consider those below whose lives are affected by these treaties and such.

These were elders who called out their leaders, by my (our?) way of thinking--people who were now at the time of their lives to live life...not solely let life live them.

To you who have supported the remain side, do you see any constructive, altruistic, responsible element to the opposition to Brexit?

 

[BusynMember]

I don't think all the young will throw away their elder relatives. I find them more idealstic and open minded as a group. Are they perfect? IS ANY GENERATION PERFECT? Were we? Are we?

The young educated make me smile, those I know. And there are young uneducated too and they also count.t I was uneducated and had idealistic ideas, but never did I believe life would be easy or I'd get my way. I expected roadblocks and was not disappointed. Politically I was quite self educated and very aware


Often we don't open up and tell our stories. And some younger people aren't interested, of course But there are older people, like me, who do not look back so much nor consider what dead ancestors did to be who we are today. Every generation has diverse thinking. To me, my story starts with me.

The older generation is also unrealistic, thinking it was better then (ignoring how Iife was for our minority population). It is also unrealistic to think that we will ever really go backwards.

All demographics share some unrealistic thinking. Rebelling out 0f anger is never an answer. Anger distorts our thinking, no matter who we are.

 

[GoingNorth]

Many of the elderly who voted to leave were folks who remembered England in the in the 40s and 50s. Before the waves of immigrants hit. People who viewed Britain as the Isle of the Mighty (With apologies to the author of that mythologically based novel set in
the Celtic Bronze age) saw that slipping away with new morals and mores, with new cultures coming and old culture changing. They saw London as the center of their world, not Brussels, Belgium.

Britain had always "held back" on the EU as it was. They never joined the Eurozone; they retained the pound. They never went completely to open borders, as I understand it.

All this really goes back to a campaign promise Cameron made: that he'd hold a vote on Brexit if re-elected.

Just like many of the British citizenry, especially the younger members, Cameron never thought, not for a minute, that Britons would vote to leave the EU.

Even in the weeks leading up to the vote, when it was looking as if the vote would be in favor of Brexit, there was too much infighting, specifically between Corbyn and Cameron, for the parties to set down and start planning their arses off for "what if".

As it sits, they were all caught with their pants down. I feel sorry for those dragged along unwilling, especially the young folks and those there on work visas who may lose their jobs and homes.

I do not feel sorry for those who are feeling "Bregrets"; who woke up going, "OMG. What have I DONE?" andd are claiming either that they didn't know what they were voting for, or thought their voting for Brexit was just an "editorial statement" because of course, "it'll never happen".

If you're old enough to vote, you are old enough to research before you cast your vote.

 

[Nomad]

1. The mention of a likely US Pres candidate in a negative way (probably positive as well) seems inappropriate to me and not in keeping with the rules
2. I think no matter how much you analyze /intellectualize it, it seems presumptuous (for lack of a better word) to view the voting results of another country as good or bad And judge the voters accordingly
3. I don't have a strong feeling either way about the results. The main reason is that I don't live there. I'm an email pal with a woman who lives in. London. She was against and her spouse was for the exit. She explained to me their opposing thoughts. I thought they both presented equally valid opinions. I believe in time all will be well.

 

[Lucedaleblessed]

Ny neighbor was stationed in Germany until last year when he retired. He said that the Europen Union made the mistake to invite what equals Mexico into their version of the United States. That meant that jobs were lost because firms in Germany moved part of their production to Poland, Hungary etc. Also the removal of border control due to the Shengen Agreement (which stopped as part of the immigration crisis) meant increased crime rates. The have stopped entire busses filled with small time criminals who are transported from absolutely poverty every summer to the large capitals where they based on the busses goes out in the streets pickpocketing and shoplifting in organized teams.

If Mexico became part of the United States tomorrow what would then happen? Would firms move down there? Would the drug criminals turn to other criminal activities when police forces from the other states regained control of the country?

Together with my neighbor I believe that they went too far transistion the system from a number of independent countries with free trade to a copy of our states without a strong president and with a leadership the voters cannot vote on directly. It left the voter with a distrust and a feeling that they were left out of the process. Secondly they did not al together enter their countries from the outside with a wish of a common future as we did. They has been Germans, French, British etc. for more than thousand years. That is their identity. They don't feel like they are Europeans.

 

[GoingNorth]

Um. What about the Byzantine Empire? Or the Holy Roman Empire? Or the Ottoman Empire? European countries have been, in greater or lesser numbers, part of groups of countries ruled from outside, or by one country for ages. I'm not including the Roman empire of old, or the Mongol or Hunnish empires in this list, as in both cases, Europe was allowed to continue the practice of both their religions and their ways of commerce and to retain their identities, so long as taxes and tributes were paid.

The doctrinal disagreements between Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity go on to this day, though wars are no longer fought over them.

As regards the busloads of criminals being sent into wealthier EU countries, I would like to see some cites on that from reputable sources. I, in my reading, have not found anything referring to that, and would like to learn more.

Regards,

GoingNorth.

 

[Lucedaleblessed]

GoingNorth

Here are some articles from the UK and Germany. I don't understand German, so I had to settle with English articles:

Poland tops league for foreign inmates in UK's overcrowded jails ahead of Ireland and Jamaica with almost 1,000 behind bars (The Daily mail online)
One Third Of Prisoners in Germany are 'foreign' citizens (Breitbart)

A country like Denmark will properly run and pay for jails abroad. My neighbor participated in a number of exercises up there before the wall came down and their prisons are like holiday ins. The inmates wear their own clothes all the time and 3 out of 4 prisoners go home for Christmas: Denmark: Foreign criminals should serve time abroad (The local). By outsourcing Denmark don't have to care about human rights etc as it is the problem in the country the prison is located in. Denmark also confiscates values from immigrants. Even their teeth are checked and a they get a lower welfare check.

Regarding German I also found this publication: Ethnic Minorities, Crime, and Criminal Justice in Germany (Hans-Jörg Albrecht)

As I learn more I become happy about our border control.