Bruce Jenner

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by SomewhereOutThere, May 13, 2015.

  1. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I saw his latest interview and it was interesting. I know I am saying this out of ignorance, but I can't figure out why he would want to change his sex at age sixty-five. Not only is it hard on the body, but he's lived his life. I have nothing against people who are transgender. I just think it would be easier to transition at a young age. I also understand that when Bruce was young, surgery like his was almost unheard of.

    Does anyone have thoughts? Does anyone even care?
     
  2. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    I don't understand it either. But he must have dreamed it, must have wished so fervently to be female, all of his life.

    Here is something for us all to think about, maybe: What is it that our knowledge of a healthy male transforming himself into an elderly female tells us about our own role, about the mystique of female, itself?

    I learned that marriage was something sacred when I watched same sex couples battle the system we all have created to claim the blessing of legitimacy in their marriages. Here is an interesting thing: I have male friends who married after a thirty year relationship, and I champion and celebrate their happiness, that sense of legitimacy in relationship they now feel and can fight for and claim. But I have no female gay friends; I know no female couple who has been together for thirty years and then, married.

    Mysogyny, (another word I a going to have to look up to be sure I am spelling correctly if I am going to keep using it ~ and it certainly has been showing up in my writing alot, lately) in my woman's heart; a certain kind of hatred, a certain delegitimacy, for women who are not like me.

    So, it's the same thing with Bruce Jenner, I think.

    What is it that we can learn from understanding that, though we believe ourselves to be old, though we mourn our gone girl beauty and etc ~ there are men out there who will take being female, bona fide female, even elderly (and therefore perceived as less than) female ~ at any cost and whatever the terms.

    What can this tell us about our own, female, value?

    I love this post. I did not know that is how I felt about Bruce Jenner.

    Cedar
     
  3. LittleDudesMom

    LittleDudesMom Well-Known Member Staff Member

    He never said he was going to have surgery. He said he was going to live as a woman. He takes hormones to decrease his masculine features and increase his female ones.

    Age has nothing to do with someone's desire to be who they always knew they were. I cannot imagine the pain he has lived with for so long.

    I think a take away from his struggle is how many of us hide our true selves because of what others expect of us? How many of us are afraid to be who we are because we fear the judgement of others?

    Sharon
     
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  4. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Wise. And true.
     
  5. Scent of Cedar *

    Scent of Cedar * Well-Known Member

    True.

    I love this.

    Cedar
     
  6. nlj

    nlj Well-Known Member

    Who's Bruce Jenner?

    Obviously yet another celebrity/story that's missed the UK!
     
  7. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    Bruce Jenner won the Olympic Decathlon in 1976. He was considered the epitome of male athletic perfection, basically. He then went on to do some acting, nothing memorable.

    Sadly, he's going to be best known for bad reality TV, (Keeping up with the Kardashians) and for being transsexual.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Jenner
     
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  8. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    I must admit, I don't "get" transsexuals. I know it sounds so prejudiced of me (and that really bothers me because I'm truly not...I don't have anything against anyone who is a decent person), but I can't get my brain around thinking you are, or should be, the opposite of the sex you were born with. (There are the obvious exceptions of course, those born with genetic abnormalities, hermaphrodites that were raised male or female by their parents and maybe their parents chose wrong, etc.) But I'm a woman. I was born a woman. I know I'm a woman. I can't get my brain around the idea of looking in a mirror and expecting to see a masculine image but seeing a feminine image (to paraphrase Bruce Jenner). I've known very masculine females. I've known very feminine men. But, as best I could tell, they just lived like they lived. The women didn't want to have penises and the men didn't want to grow breasts...they just were what they were. There's just something about changing your body to something it wasn't genetically meant to be that seems so discordant, and it seems to me that it is somehow so wrong (not wrong in the bad/evil/sinful sense, but wrong as in sad and unfortunate) to place so much emphasis on the physical form.

    I don't know that I feel it is a mental disorder...if it's something that should be "cured", but I do understand why people feel it is. I mean, if there were anything else about a person that made them feel that way...like the image they see isn't what they were meant to be...it would be considered a mental problem. If I felt that I should look in the mirror and see a slim blond, when I'm a fat brunette, for example.

    Of course, no one would care if I transformed myself into a slim blond. Jabber might even like it. :p

    I get homosexuality. I see it as a fact of genetics, not a choice. There are too many examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom, it's existed for as long as there have been people. There's no doubt in my mind it is biological. But that's very different than being transsexual. Bruce Jenner is not gay, to the best of my knowledge. I actually have less problems getting my head around gay people wanting to have sex changes. That makes more sense to me.

    And in the end, I suppose it doesn't matter. I don't care what people do so long as they are decent, law-abiding, people and they aren't hurting anyone else. They shouldn't be given special treatment or be treated worse than any "typical" person. Their lives are their own business.

    I just don't get it.

    But what I get even less is - at this very moment, I know one grown man and two young girls (middle-school - one of which is the daughter of the man) who have declared themselves transsexual. I've personally met three other men who either present as women or who have actually undergone the surgery. So I have personally met or know 6 people who claim to be transsexual. (I say claim, because the two girls, who now say they are boys, are in a relationship with each other and I find it kind of hard to say this isn't some odd phase they are going thru, seeing how one's father left his marriage to her mom to become a woman shortly before the girl decided she was a boy and her girlfriend followed suit shortly thereafter).

    But the real point is - I don't know that many people! I live in a town of about 35,000. How is it even possible that being transgender is that prevalent?
     
  9. nlj

    nlj Well-Known Member

  10. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    I didn't see the entire interview that Bruce Jenner did but I think it took a lot of guts for him to go public with it. Maybe it will now be easier for others like him to come forward. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to have to live your whole life pretending to be something or somebody that you're not. I don't pretend to understand it all though. Has he ever said that he intends to have surgery or is he just going to live and dress like a woman? He has stated that he is not gay ... but does that means that he still desires women since he's still a man physically? Or does that mean that he prefers men since he considers himself to really be a woman? The more you think about it, the more convoluted it becomes!
     
  11. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    That's an interesting article. Some things caught my eye:

    Lily's mum Jen explains that she recalls Lily, aged four, then still being treated as a boy, coming into the bedroom as she was putting a dress and necklace on. Lily said: "Wow - can I wear a dress like that when I grow up?" Jen says they thought it was "quite cute" but that he'd grow out of it and "maybe grow up to be gay".

    ...

    "He was three and in a toy shop and he wanted a Barbie doll. Back then I did say, 'that's what girls play with - let's go and look at the trucks and cars'. But he was always drawn towards everything girly. Aged two and three he always wanted dolls, pink glittery things, princess stuff.

    See? What's to say that boys can't play with pink things? There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't mean they should have breasts and a vagina! My son played with "girl" toys. He loved the little kitchens and such. He went to daycare with mostly girls and had nothing but little girls to play with for a long time. But he liked boy things too.

    No one would tell a little girl she couldn't play with trucks or play baseball. Why should we tell little boys they can't play dress-up or have a baby-doll if they want? Maybe if people were more flexible the kids would be better adjusted?

    That's what I mean about putting so much emphasis on the physical form. A boy likes pink, glittery things at age 3 and people assume he's a girl in a boys body? Maybe he's just a boy who likes pink?

    The Tavistock and Portman Clinic say it's difficult to predict gender outcome in pre-pubescent children and there's evidence that for many young children experiencing gender dysphoria, those feelings don't persist into adulthood.

    The concern I have about transgender children like the ones in the story...is they won't have much of a choice if their parents delay puberty or have them go on hormones or raise them totally as girls. Is this doing more harm than good to them in the end?

    I guess my thinking is rather than change yourself...maybe you should learn to accept yourself?
     
  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I think we'll find that transexuals have genetic or hormonal differences too. I don't think it's a mental disorder. I think it is due to possibly too much male or female hormones in someone's body.

    Gays were thought of as mentally ill too at one time not too long ago and we (most of us) know better now. I doubt it can be changed anymore than sexual preference can be changed because I believe it will come out, as most things do, that this is inborn.

    I don't believe in trying to stop people from being who they feel th ey are, unless it is a murderer or somebody who will hurt others. I really don't see why we have the right to tell somebody else how he/she feels inside and we don't have the qualifications to judge if somebody is ill or perfectly sane with some differences that are not yet detected.

    We don't "get" it yet. That doesn't mean there won't be a sane explanation soon and I believe it's coming. Just like gays and lesbians (does anyone really care anymore?)

    Being lefthanded used to mean you were mentally slow.

    We evolve. We change. We learn.

    Lil, I am sure...and, trust me, I don't believe in this country much anymore...lol...I do believe nobody will be able to change gender FOR another person. It will be an adult process decided upon by doctors and their over eighteen patients. I can't see it ever being legal to sex change minor kids, even if they feel like the opposite sex. We don't let fourteen year olds join the Service even if they desperately feel ready and want to. We limit things. This will be limited as well...to consenting adults.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
  13. nlj

    nlj Well-Known Member

    Yes Lil, I found this article very disturbing.
     
  14. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    The physical operation, sure. THAT will have to be a informed adult decision.

    But what about the little ones in the article? They are being raised totally as girls, referred to as "she" or "her" and basically being told they are girls and that's just fine. But they aren't girls. I'm sorry, but they just aren't. They are little boys who like "girly" things like princess dresses and dolls...and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe instead of turning them into daughters, the parents should take the position that their sons are fine just the way they are...males who like the same kind of things most females like. I wonder if they'd call a daughter their son and refer to her as "him" if she refused to wear anything but jeans and preferred trucks to baby dolls? It just seems that they are stereotyping their kids just as badly as those who think boys have to be rough and tough and girls have to be delicate flowers.
     
  15. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Brad And Angelina are raising thier daughter, who says she is a boy, to be a boy.

    I'm not sure what I'd do if I had a boy who wanted to be a little girl. Definitely seek help because that's more than I know how to handle. I read a book about a boy who for some reason lost most of his man part as an infant. I forgot why. The book was long ago. The doctor actually told his parents that since he would never look normal, he should be raised as a girl (I wish I could remember the title of this book). So they raised him as a girl with a girl's name, but he was always just like a boy and would tell people he was a boy. I know he found out the truth in his teens, but don't remember his reaction.I remember he let himself be a man and got married.
     
  16. LittleDudesMom

    LittleDudesMom Well-Known Member Staff Member

    For me personally, I think folks have such a hard time "wrapping their heads" around the idea of transgenderism because we still are so wrapped up in trying to define sexuality.

    A person identifies their gender because of who they feel they are.
    A person identifies their sexuality because of how they feel about others.
     
  17. Confused

    Confused Active Member

    I have watched Keeping Up With The Kardashians and of course about Bruce. It was a shock when the tabloids came out with the news, as we know, many stories end up being false. I believe we are born the way we are born, period. I mean, I may be wrong as Im the only one in my head and cant get into others( thats a good thing!) and Im not a scientist. I look at it this way, I always have been attracted to the opposite sex, even had my crush in Kinder and thought he and I would marry lol. I do believe we are born who we are, no mater who that is. I had a gay friend( he was wonderful but we lost touch) he said the same I still believe, before I said how I felt. He liked boys from the earliest memory of his life, he dressed as a boy, but had friends who was a mix of everything, says they said they were born this way too.

    Its the same to me as interracial relationships, those who believe Polish with Polish or those whites with whites! Blah! I feel we were meant to be on this earth to learn, love, care etc, no matter the skin color, no matter what sex we end up with! But, again, my personal opinion! I think Bruce was forced to be someone hes not for all these years because of the public, because of the Olympics, if he had a sex change or dressed as a female, he wouldn't of been allowed to participate I believe. It was worse for people back in the day to admit who they were, still is now, but theres more support today. Some jokes spread that he wants the attention or being married to a Kardashian is why he changed his identity. Its sad when that stuff is said about people. But, not for me to judge, its who ever the creator of this earth and us, I say that because not all people believe in God. I believe in God, but again, there are many people that believe in "their" God , different from another persons religious belief, our Gods etc!

    Yes, also with Brad and Angelina, I noticed that and people make comments they shouldnt let her dress as a boy. I don't know, its a tough call for us parents and really, we might not know what we would do if it happened to our kids. Esp me! I love my kids regardless, of course. But, it would be a shock!
     
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  18. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    My BFFs lived together for 36 years and married when it became legal in WI. I am very happy for them to finally have the chance to have their love and their relationship recognized by the state in which they live.
     
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  19. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    Everyone should be able to marry the person they love. As a Christian, I will never understand those who condemn other people in the name of Christ. He was about love...not discrimination.
     
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  20. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    Lil, I agree! I have a female cousin in her sixties who has been in a relationship with another woman for the last THIRTY YEARS! That's longer than both of my marriages put together! They're both retired now, they own a home, they're well liked and well respected by their families, neighbors and church families. But legally they were no more than "friends". Several months ago, as soon as it was legally possible where they live, they finally were able to be married. Just the legal and financial differences between being legally married and being just "friends" are HUGE! Nobody has the right to tell anyone else how to live their life. And in these times filled with wars, terrorism, violence, hatred and intolerance, the LAST thing we should be concerned about is who someone else chooses to love!
     
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