corporal punishment

[Fran]

I'm pretty sure I'm a tough, no nonsense mom. I'm not adverse to corporal punishment but when I considered it, I realized that hurting any of my children wasn't my goal.
It spoke volumes about me and none of it discipline but relieving my frustration.
My son's have had 3 spanks on their hiney before the age of 5yrs old. I would give them fair warning to correct their behavior then they got the count down. I started at 5. If they didn't "fix it" by 1 they got their 3 spanks. I seldom had to get to 1.
I did this for my own self control more than anything. Having a difficult child made me want to beat something ferousiously at times. It isn't the way I wanted to parent. Once I set boundaries and control I felt better about how I would discipline.
I was the recipient of beatings as well as an observer of sibs getting beatings. It was downright horrible. We walked a straight line but the price was great. It is demoralizing and humiliating.
Don't let anyone kid you about it. It's not the way I want to raise my kids.

The next time someone mentions sparing the rod, look at them as they are crazy. Corporal punishment is no more a guarantee of functioning, healthy children than a magic pill. Being a tough,no nonsense, loving parent has nothing to do with physical pain.

Look at what your child needs and ask yourself what's the goal? Be a smart parent.

 

[BusynMember]

Fran, this is a great post. ICAM!!!!

 

[envisablepuppet]

My personal opinion on spanking is that after a child is old enough to reason with not only is spanking useless but in some cases abusive.

I never believed in hitting hard enough to leave a mark or using anything that could bring real pain. Spanking for me was always just a way of getting her attention. Face slapping, or putting your hands on someone else's child is a complete nono as far as I'm concerned. The best way for someone to completely enrage me and husband was if someone put their hands on our child.

I'm not saying she was never spanked because she was. But she was never beat and I do fell there is a difference. I don't have anything against other people that spank but I do know the difference between disciplining a child and abusing a child. I will not turn a blind eye to anyone abusing a child or a senior for that matter. I have a no tolerance level for it.

The only thing spanking did for my difficult child was to make her sneaker and more cleaver about it :rolleyes:

Lea

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

"Spare the rod, spoil the child" simply means discipline is necessary. It does not mean that you should beat children. I once believed that the "rod" in that passage is the shepherd's crook, i.e. meant for guidance, not beating. However, that is not correct. The word used really does refer to a rod that would be used for CP. I am still of the opinion though that the rod is (mainly) a metaphor for "discipline".

wife spanked her kids when very small for major infractions. I did not. Can't say that either style was more effective. Depends on the child. With gr.daughter we have spanked her maybe 5 or 6 times (she is 6 yo now) for running away into the street, etc. But lately she has shown a distressing tendency to hit out at other kids, and we have agreed that hitting as punishment for hitting sends the wrong message. difficult child has been heard to complain that she was spanked when little, why are we against it now? I resist the temptation to say, "Look how well it worked for you."

 

[AllStressedOut]

Herewegoagain, that is a great way to interpret the saying, whether it was meant that way or not.

With my difficult children I just learned that spanking made the whole thing worse. In fact, with youngest difficult child you can't even raise your voice. He is that sensitive to discipline. If husband is really mad about whatever difficult child did, I tell him that I'll deal with it. I know how loud husband can get and all it does is make me have to start at square one again with difficult child. I can be talking to him and slowly getting him to respond and if husband comes in, it derails the whole thing. I still have husband handle some things, but typically I deal with it. I'm not saying I never yell, I do, I just typically handle most situations calmer than husband.

Unless of course I'm dealing with some twerp who didn't take care of my kids, then husband has to step in, cuz I go "ghetto" on them. I turn into "white trash mama" in .03 seconds if someone isn't good to my kiddos. husband is much calmer dealing with others than I am.

 

[overwhelmed]

I do beleive in "spare the rod, spoil the child" but with my 9yr old have found that spanking doesn't really help the situation at all and most times makes her angry and then her behavior gets even worse. I wish I could tell you what would work but I haven't figured it out yet.

My 16 and 18 yr olds responded well to spankings. One good spanking and the behavior was not repeated. But they had none of the issues that their sister has.

 

[BusynMember]

What does "Spare the rod and spoil the child" even mean? Does it mean that if you don't hit your kids, they'll be spoiled? In what universe is that true? Kids can be spoiled rotten even if they're hit and not spoiled if they aren't. Spoiling has to do with tossing too many unnecessary possessions at kids. Never "got" that bibical saying--in my opinion, it's dumb. JMO and a short vent :wink:

 

[Marguerite]

Yep, that's what it means. "Spare the rod..." means to not use it, or to use it sparingly. If you do avoid using the rod, you will spoil the child. Allegedly.

You can use the Bible (misquoted, or quoted selectively) to justify anything. How many times have you heard someone say, "Am I my brother's keeper?" to justify not getting involved in helping someone else? How many people remember that this is what Cain said, when asked where his brother Abel was (after Cain had murdered him)?

And what is it with people who name their kid Cain, or Kane, because it's a name from the Bible?

OK, off topic, but maybe just for the exercise I'll go through my Bible encyclopedia and look for references to discipline. Could be a fun read...

Marg

 

[AllStressedOut]

Marg, good point on the bible name. I think many people don't know where each saying originated. I don't know many of them and was raised reading the bible every day. I'm not good at remembering sayings anyways....I'm the idiot who will say "kill two birds with a shotgun.", "two peas in the basket" well, okay, maybe not that far off, but I hardly ever remember how to say them correctly.

 

[BusynMember]

There are many things in the Bible I don't agree with. This is one--it's outdated and in my opinion used incorrectly. On what planet does hitting a kid make them good people? in my opinion it just accelerates violence. It's possible to raise totally law-abiding kids and never spank them--my three grown kids are doing well and I never really spanked and certainly never beat them with belts--I don't "get" anyone thinking that this makes a better kid. My kids also are not violent--even ex-difficult child who used drugs isn't in any way violent and I'm sure she won't spank her own kids...never did understand the idea that hitting makes a kid unspoiled...When people say, "Oh, I was whacked with a belt and I turned out ok" all I can think of is, "Yeah, in SPITE of getting beat, you did ok"... (grumble, grumble) :wink:

 

[Fran]

I'm no scholar of the Bible or even child rearing for that matter.
I have to believe the guide line of having no consequences for a child will make them overindulged and not very functional is accurate.
The actual way to give consequence is up to interpretation. Back in the day, corporal punishment was the norm. Life was a lot crueler.

I don't disagree with the premise of structure, rules and consequence in raising children and how I live my life. I also understand there is a huge difference between a spanking and a beating. The problem is that not every parent has the decision making capabilities to know what is too much. It the heat of anger many a child got more "consequence" than they should have.Frequently. Who can make that decision in anger? Just because we give birth doesn't make us right without question.

I don't believe this is a discussion of the bible but a discussion of corporal punishment and how that phrase is used to make a parent feel like they are failing their children. We are somehow not following the wisdom of the Bible.

 

[Marguerite]

Another response is, "Well, it's nice that you THINK you turned out OK..."

Marg

 

[AllStressedOut]

I'd just say "Just because I don't hit my kid, doesn't mean I spoil them." in reply to someone quoting that saying. Then give them a disgusted look and walk away.

If someone is telling you your kid isn't handled right, you have every right to be offended and make them feel bad about it. No one is in your shoes, NO ONE, not even us, who have difficult children. We each have different circumstances and NONE of us have the right to judge.

 

[Adrift]

Did anyone else see the Today show yesterday morning where they were recommending taking your child's favorite DVD or Computer Game and shredding it???? This amazed me. Spanking and this kind of thing feels demoralizing to me. It also seems just vinidictive and not educating. on the other hand, I've often wondered that if we did spank, would it have made a difference??? Just had to go with our guts on that one, we just didn't feel right with hitting our kids. -L

 

[BusynMember]

I don't believe in being vindicative. The punishment needs to fit the crime. I'm not going to shred a DVD or game. I may hide it or lock it up, but not destroy it. I'm not going to hit my kid either. I do think there is a difference between a spanking on a padded butt and a beating on a bare butt with a belt (child abuse. I never did either. It's amazing that, since I guess I'm such a softie, I have two grown kids who never gave me any real behavior problems and one who did but straightened out. And they called me mean sometimes...lol.
I guess it's all what you think will work. I prefer removing privleges. I will play hardball with a very defiant out-of-control teen--I did make my daughter leave since she wouldn't get help. And, yes, sometimes I wanted to slap sense into her, but I'm glad I didn't try. Maybe our relationship wouldn't be so good now if I'd hit her for my own satisfaction back then--because it certainly would not have been for her good.

 

[Marguerite]

Lynnp, you said, ..."where they were recommending taking your child's favorite DVD or Computer Game and shredding it????"

It sounds like "Mommie Dearest" when Christina's party dress got shredded because she got a spot on it (or on something) and her mother then made hr wear it for a week. If anyone asked her why she was wearing shredded, dirty rags she had to say, "Because I don't value pretty things." Or similar.

I agree with you, and MWM - this sort of demoralising is highly inappropriate. It's wasteful to destroy something and frankly, it's as bad as spanking (worse) because it's STILL an abuse of power. It's still "I'm bigger than you, I can impose my will on you," which is NOT what discipline should be about (but unfortunately, is seen that way by too many people). The ultimate aim of discipline is to teach self-discipline. If you discipline by constantly imposing your will the child will be resentful and rebellious, often using the first available opportunity to break out and deliberately do the wrong things. This means you have failed in the object of your discipline.

I do admit, we have made a child give up a toy and give it to someone else, but only when it fitted the crime - a child who stole money from a parent's wallet to buy a toy, was made to give that toy to a charity for needy kids. Nor was he allowed to take credit for his generosity - when the pastor thanked him for his gift, he had to tell the pastor that it wasn't his gift. The pastor had been primed to not be too hard on him - simply having to be honest with the pastor was enough added punishment, buh thankfully the pastor gave him a hug and thanked him for (finally) being honest.

The kid never stole again. If we'd destroyed the toy, things could have turned out much worse.

Marg

 

[weaselqt]

Ok, I have to tell you of a punishment I did to difficult child 2.

Brushing his teeth became a HUGE battle in my house. I had to do it for him! He was 11 or 12 years old. I got TIRED OF THIS!! I mean, come on! So, my punishment was to take away his tooth brush for two days. I did not tell him that I was taking it away until he realized it was missing. It took him 4 days to come and say, "Where is my toothbrush?" FOUR DAYS!!! I told him that he was grounded from his toothbrush for 2 more days before he would get it back. OMG! He was SO MAD AT ME!!! He went 2 more days without it (we also hid all the others because he would have used them to prove a point) - but guess what, IT WORKED!!! I may say to him, "Brush your teeth." - but it is only once or twice and I do NOT have to do it for him either.

I guess that was a cruel punishment - yucky to say the least - but it worked. He finally had a desire for it and when he couldn't have it - he had to do the time!! He thought I was crazy - of course, so did difficult child 1.

Now, let's go to difficult child 1's punishment: She would NOT pick up her clothes off the bedroom floor and I was tired of washing and rewashing items SEVERAL times because they got dirty or she coulnd't tell which ones were dirty. I told her that if she left her dirty clothes on the floor again and did not put up her clean clothes, she would wear what was on the floor every day for a week (of my choosing and it was the same outfit every day). Well, to say the least, she put her dirty, stinky shirt with a spaghetti smudge on the front on the floor the VERY NEXT DAY!! Guess what shirt she wore all week! Good thing it was summer time - but she had 2 outings that week that had already been planned - and yes, she tried to back out but I wouldn't let her. She didn't do that again. Her room is nice and clean - for 4 years now!!!

LOL - some of the things we try! A friend of mine wouldn't let her daughter wear make-up or hair products for a week as punishment. I can't remember what she did, but I do remember seeing her daughter at church on Wednesday and asking her mom of B* was sick - that is when she told me what happened. her daughter was in HIGH SCHOOL!!

Everyone does interpret punishment in different ways - including how the Bible puts it. But I agree that they do need consequences to become well rounded people of society (we can only hope and pray!)

Thanks all! Nice to see what ya'll think!