Curious about fenatyl and morphine

Discussion in 'Substance Abuse' started by SomewhereOutThere, Jun 10, 2016.

  1. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    When I had a terrible accident I spent twelve weeks in a trauma hospital being pumped with morphine and fenatyl. I don't remember the hospital stay at all but I have vivid recollections of things that never happened or else vivid, life like dreams.

    Anyone know why? DARKWING? GN? As soon as I left hospital reality returned
  2. rebelson

    rebelson Active Member

    Sounds like you were heavily medicated. That would explanation your lack of memory. Morphine sulfate does cause vivid dreams, hallucinations, etc.
  3. Sister's Keeper

    Sister's Keeper Active Member

    Some people do hallucinate on morphine. I vomit, I think I might rather hallucinate. LOL.

    Fentanyl, though, is a powerful pain killer with a nice side effect of amnesia. It makes it great for sedation during uncomfortable and painful procedures.
  4. DarkwingPsyduck

    DarkwingPsyduck Active Member

    It is more like a hypnotic state than anything else. When you take too much, you start going in and out, and it makes it incredibly difficult to tell when you are awake, or if you're just having rapid fire dreams.
  5. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    I've only had morphine and fentanyl in a medical setting. The fentanyl just knocked me out; but the morphine did make me hallucinate/lucid dream my brains out.

    When I tried heroin a couple of times, the reaction was very similar to morphine, only stronger and "sleepier"
  6. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    GN, that was my experience. I remembered the dreams/hallucinations more than my actual hospital experience. Twelve weeks of a kind of scary dreamland. If that is how it feels to abuse drugs, I really don't understand why anyone would like using them. Nightmares of reality and lots of fear. I have no clear memories of reality until I left the hospital. Not fun.
  7. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    I think most of the fear in your case was that you had NO idea how you got into that state. A drug user intends to take the drug, WITH the intent of getting into an altered state.

    (I except "fiending" or compulsive redosing which occurs with some drugs, such as cocaine, some benzos, and Ambien and the like.)

    I LOVED heroin, which is why after the second time I tried it, I swore "never again". I haven't touched it since because I KNEW I'd be an addict if I continued to use it.
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  8. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Gn, I didn't know that the dreams and hallucinating weren't real.

    Thanks hor the insight.
  9. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    No. You would have no idea that they weren't real. You suffered a very significant head injury in that accident.

    You have no memory of the accident or some time before. So to you, it would seem like you went from the normalcy of that time before, to the horror of being trapped in a place of bright lights, pain, and hallucinations and drug-dreams.

    Of course you were terrified.

    Remember, drug users who CHOOSE to take a substance to get high are expecting the effects, and even they, with certain drugs, get caught up in compulsive redosing which they are not aware of, or get a chemical that isn't what they thought it was and experience effects they weren't expecting.
  10. DarkwingPsyduck

    DarkwingPsyduck Active Member

    Something else that is different with junkies than legitimate pain management patients is that the patients do not enjoy the side effects, while the junkie is looking for them specifically. Patients just want to be able to function normally, and junkies want to not feel feelings.
  11. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I have always believed I could easily be addicted to narcotics. I remember with pleasure every time in my life I was given pain management drugs that were downers, like vicodin or morphine. I loved them.

    I am a functioning, responsible older adult. I will never most likely be a drug addict. (I do not drug seek. That is a deliberate choice.) But I believe I could be an addict. Easily. (Actually, I am not being facetious here. I have instructed M that if I enter hospice please to not advocate restraint with the drugs.)
    Actually, I think the distinction is subtle between a junkie and a pain management patient. The latter has the same potential for self-deception, as the former, if she is not careful.

    Going and darkwing, do you think I am being unnecessarily cautious or can I call my physician right this minute for Vicodin (which gives me such a delicious sense of well-being, that I have not taken it for 12 years or more?)

    PS. I am a legitimate pain management patient.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2016
  12. rebelson

    rebelson Active Member

    Copa, I'm not sure if you're joking here. But. the last 12 years were your choice and not a fluke. You know your self. I'd say listen to your gut and stay away. One is never too old to become an addict.
  13. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    GN, I had many broken bones but just a mild concussion. Being so short, as I am, when the trucked rolled over I didn't hit my head on the ceiling. Literally, my seat belt saved me from bad head trauma! There are some good things about being I had a small bleed but my neuropsychology follow ups show no brain damage.

    I think it was the drugs. I am having minor surgery soon for something else and have requested NO narcotics not even codeine. I want a localized block rather than drugs. I had a block before and it worked great. The only medications I took after were ibuprofen and extra strength Tylenol.
  14. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I was tongue and cheek. I was disagreeing with GN and darkwing about the dangers for the pain management patient. (But because I esteem highly each of them, and believe each of them have highly developed knowledge bases about drugs and addiction, I did not want to disagree directly.)

    I agree with you absolutely. I believe that the potential for abuse lies equally with the pain management patient and the recreational user.

    I wanted to emphasize the point that the risks are equal for both, because of the biochemical properties of the substances, the dis-inhibition that comes from taking them, and the secondary gain--feeling good. Perhaps the pain management patient has an even greater risk. It seems I cannot go to the doctor's office without hearing somebody beg for narcotics, already hooked.
  15. GoingNorth

    GoingNorth Crazy Cat Lady

    Actually, Copa, it's not so much abuse with PM patients as it is a matter of tolerance.ALL "chronic" users of opioids will develop a tolerance where more of the medications are required to get the desired result, be it pain relief or a high.

    ALL chronic users of opioids will eventually develop a physical dependence upon them and will go through physical withdrawal upon cessation of use. The difference between addiction and dependence is that those who are physically dependent, but not addicted, do not usually experience the psychological cravings for the drugs, nor the severe depression that addicts do. Both experience anxiety, which is due to effects on brain chemistry.

    One of the saddest things I've ever seen was when my BFF was admitted for her final hospital stay. She'd been on 60 mg of oxycodone daily (Percoset) for chronic pain, for about 8 years. The admitting physician refused to write for the oxy because he disapproved of chronic opioid use.

    BFF went into withdrawal. Since she was unable to speak, and her wife had no idea what was causing the sx, she was treated for the various symptoms.

    I came by to visit, recognized what was going on, explained it to her wife, at which point wife pitched a fit and finally got her on morphine. The relaxation and look of relief on her face when the morphine took effect was amazing.

    She'd been left to suffer for 3 days with no pain relief and in withdrawal, at 72 years of age, because of the whim of a doctor.

    She was not an addict. She was dependent on the medications. I am not an addict. I have been taking benzos, prescribed by a psychiatrist many years ago for daily use. I found out when I moved, from my new psychiatrist, that I am dependent on benzos, and at this point it would not be safe for me to get off of them, even with a taper. I don't crave benzos. I don't take more than prescribed. But, like my late BFF and her Percoset, I am drug dependent.

    I do agree that many PM patients do become addicted to their medications, and you, Copa, are at high risk because you like the high.
  16. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    The one exception is palliative care. The risks pretty much don't matter at that point.
  17. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    This is a horrible story, Going, and totally, totally unethical of this doctor.

    There are so many stories like this in prisons, where the psychiatrists and other physicians enable the addiction and thwart it. Now, there are broad classes of medications which in my State are banned altogether for use in prisons because of so-called misuse by patients, when the issue was the prescribing of them indiscriminantly, and of course, selling of them, for profit. I must be honest.

    So crazy things happen. Like no benadryl for sleep, so that people fake psychosis to get heavy drugs that as a side-effect cause drowsyness, when cheap relatively safe benadryl would better do the job.

    Oh, Going. How I hate that story of your friend's last days. And thank g-d you came along.
    Yes. Going, you may remember, my Dad used drugs, when he could get them, but never became a nodding off junky. I do not know why. He was a terrible alcoholic. But he always worked. He was even under suspicion for trafficking heroin when he was a merchant marine.

    I know who I am, and where I could go. I remember.

    I think the difference between dependence and addiction is subtle and hard to understand for me. I agree with Insane, palliative care, I am in favor of. And aggressive, if desired by the patient and family.

    I understand dependence to some extent, because I have taken sleeping pills and xanex and vicodin and while the sleeping pills were presented to me as not leading to a physiological dependence, I felt a psychological one, and could not sleep without them. I hate that.

    But there is a netherland where dependence becomes addiction, I think. Where the element of free choice becomes nullified, because of free choice, and addiction flowers. I say that because I believe there is individual responsibility with respect to medications. Looking back, I believe I could have been set up by physicians, unknowingly. I see more free choice now, that comes from taking responsibility.

    Believe me, I am not judging here. I am owning up more to who I am--or more to the point, could be.