Damn Fate

Star*

call 911........call 911
I would watch her a few days to check her behavior and see what motivates her. Food, attention, touch - and go with that for training. It will become evident very quickly. Since she's a rover - It's hard to pinpoint what her motivater is at this point - Mostly I'd say food, because she got fed WELL at your house. She knows where to get a meal - but there is also TRAINING involved and when it's uncomfortable for her or GOT uncomfortable for her? She flew the coop. (so perhaps companionship isn't the motivatior here for her) If it is food? That's a VERY good thing - because it's a strong motivator and could be a great training tool. IF you do need to crate train her? The first few weeks? You do NOT shut the door on her - (i'm sure you know this) You sit with her in front of it - toss a treat or something to eat in the back to get her used to going into it - cover it with a blanket to make it like a den and sit in front of it eventually to not allow her out of it - and THEN after a while - when she starts to go in it by herself? You slowly shut the door for five minutes at a time. This way she thinks it's a den not a cage - and a good place not a punishment. Lots of people just assume dogs like them - and they don't ------I would guess being a stray she's never been in one -

I think people should sit in one - with the door shut - and stay there for an hour and think - before they EVER put a dog in one - for 5 hours......and then see if it's a good tool. But that's just me.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
I think people should sit in one - with the door shut - and stay there for an hour and think - before they EVER put a dog in one - for 5 hours......and then see if it's a good tool. But that's just me.
Star... it's where my kids hide when they don't want to be found... and they can hide there for hours... I even caught one of them, in one of the kennels, with BOTH dogs in there at the same time... and they were ALL sleeping. SO... I for one don't feel guilty about sending the dogs to their "rooms" just like I do with the kids.
 
L

Liahona

Guest
I'd like to hide in one for a few hours; some place I might actually be able to sleep with out the kids finding me. The last time we went to visit family they had a dog house that I had a hard time keeping difficult child 2 out of. Maybe that kind of threat would work with difficult child-less families.
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
Hmmm. I've crate trained I dunno how many dogs.........and not once done it that way. I just tell them it's time to go to bed and in they go with a nice treat with some of their favorite things. I make out like it's just no big deal. Like one does with a toddler you're trying to put to bed. She has got to use the crate, no choice, when I'm not here to watch her. So honestly.......there hasn't been any time for a slow introduction. Actually, she's doing fine with it. Not at all like that first night..........but considering the accident I found in it in the morning (which is why she was alone in the yard to begin with).....that might have been the reason. She may have been trying to tell me she needed to poo and I assumed she didn't like the crate and was crying to get out. Because she has not fussed once in the crate except the need to potty since she has returned.

Ok......nix that, had a cop go by not long ago and it set her off to howling for a bit. Not cry howling, true hound dog howling. lol But she's asleep again.

Food is not her motivation in any form. I don't even think it was her motivation for following Travis home. She just nibbled at her food last night like she was just so so interested........and has yet to finish the bowl even today. Still nibbling.

Affection/praise on the other hand, just might be it. I'll have to keep watching her. But she eats it up big time.

The eating thing could be that she is just so excited about being here again too........so I'll keep watching and see.

As to what motivated her to jump the fence...........I don't really know. But I do have to keep in mind that Midnight is in heat and currently attracting every unentered male cat in the area. And every since her return, she's been trying to chase them. Not Minnie or Midnight...........just the males that are courting. So maybe that was her motivation. Dunno.

And Sadie was not a stray very long. Tops maybe a week. (not counting the time she was with me and neighbor lady) I know where her home is. The jerk threw her out and refused to take her back. Neighbors told me when he tossed her out. So far, I've not see a reason for it. Except maybe he figured she was cutting into his drug money or whatever.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Lisa - I have no idea what others mean by a "slow introduction" to the crate... I've made it a specific training exercise, but... in our house, we're talking an hour, max. Not days or weeks! Just a planned, rapid step-up of getting them to associate good things with the crate and being happy in it. And then it's a total non-issue. I say "good night" to the kids and they toddle off to their rooms. I say "good night" to the dogs... and they go lay down in their "rooms" and wait for me to shut the door and turn out the light.
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
That's about how I do it normally too. Although also normally.......it's with a very young pup, not one as old as Sadie. I have done it with older pups and a few dogs, and done it the same way. Molly had to earn her right to stay out of the crate. And that came with short trial runs that got longer over a very long period of time. Betsy had earned her right to stay out (no accidents, no getting into trouble)....but preferred being in her crate at night. She'd often sleep in it during the day with the door open though. (and does at Nichole's when she wants a break from the kids) So she continued using hers.

Sadie will have to earn her right not to use the crate as well. Done the same way. I won't have a dog destroying the house or pottying everywhere when I'm not around.

Now here's a funny with the two girls.

Travis was sleeping (he's nocturnal, sleeps during daylight up at night, he can see his computer better in the dark) Sadie woke him up about an hour before I came home. So he took her potty and then sat with both girls. Well........at some point he wasn't paying attention to them because he discovered Sadie (who is taller than Molly) sticking her head into the trash can to fetch out empty cans of dog food, and giving them to Molly.........who then licked what she wanted and gave it back to Sadie to finish off. All because Mom forgot to take out the trash. I guess I should be grateful the trash can was virtually empty except for the empty dog food cans. LOL
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
How funny Lisa!

I am so NOT looking forward to crate training my little baby after this weekend. I mean she is only 2 months old now and used to being in a pack of her siblings and now she will come inside all by herself. I imagine she will cry and cry. I have a crate that is about 2 and a half feet long and about 20 inches wide. Maybe its a tad bit smaller. It was the one we got when Buddy came home with us and he was a grown dog but he doesnt stay in it anymore. I would try putting him back in there with her but it might annoy him and make him resent her. I wonder if I put her in bed with me if she would wake me up when she had to potty and not potty on my bed?
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
Janet, you could start introducing her to it while her sibs are there.

After some playtime in the yard when they're yawning and sleepy......put the pups you have left, including her, into the crate for a nap. (doesn't have to be inside) When they wake up.....let them out to play.

Precious' pups went to their forever homes house trained AND crate trained. House trained because I simply can't tolerate the amount of odor from that many pups......so Nichole and I would load up the whole litter into rubbermaid boxes and take them into the yard to potty at once. (and yes it was a sight that brought the neighbors out to watch lol but it works) Then we'd let them play a while....and back into the house/playpen they went. The playpen wasn't a crate, but close enough to one.........that when each transferred to a crate, they did so smoothly. Not the omg I want to rip of my ears crying that baby dogs usually do the first weeks. For betsy when her litter mates were all gone......I added some doggy stuffies for her to cuddle. easy child did the same with her sister Cleo.

Usually naptime during the day was the worst........so we'd drap a sheet over the crate, like you do a bird in a cage. And like with a bird, it works......after a few mins they settle down to sleep. lol

Sadie did well last night with the crate again. This morning, she's in the yard pottying with Molly. Soon as I gulp down my coffee, it will be play/run/burn off energy time.........I want her to realize, crate is only temporary, the rest of her day she'll get lovies and play and such. It helps with the adjustment to the crate.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
Janet -
Whatever you start now, is what you will live with... so I'm not sure about her sleeping with you.
But... some people like the dog crate in their bedroom, as an option. You can hear what's going on (whether that's good or bad, is your call to make!)
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
he discovered Sadie (who is taller than Molly) sticking her head into the trash can to fetch out empty cans of dog food, and giving them to Molly.........who then licked what she wanted and gave it back to Sadie to finish off
Well... that tells you right there that you're not going to have trouble between Molly and Sadie.
Sadie recognizes that Molly is higher up the pack structure - so she gets first dibs on food.
And Molly recognizes that Sadie is part of the pack... so leaves a little for her.
 

Tiapet

Old Hand
Ok, I have a few things here for tips, not that they may be needed, just some input. For anyone and some have been mentioned.

Crate training - we've done it it with 2 year old rescue dogs (1 never crate trained and 1 that supposedly was) and with the litter of pups. With the older dogs it was a bit different. The one that never was trained, though was already house broken so the crate was just used for when we went out to stop her from getting into garbage as she would not trash the house or anything otherwise (not a chewer or destroyer, a typical couch potato). She was resistant at first and had no clue what a crate even was. We had to teach her to go in. We tossed treats in there. At first not any old treat worked even though food was a big motivator, she was that resistant. We used liver treats. We gave her one right as she came to us by the crate and then tossed another in. Now, under any circumstances all I have to do is say "crate" and she will go to the crate and get in on her own, no treat involved or needed though at times I still give her one. I wanted her to know that she doesn't always have to have one. She is also so well trained about the crate that as they say don't use it for punishment, we can now use it as punishment if necessary (I'll explain this one in a minute). She will still go in it willingly.

The puppies we trained that as soon as they came out of crate, and we put them all in at once as they used the larger adult crates so they had ample room, they were immediately taken out to go potty. They can not hold their little bladders for much more then 2 hours at a time until they hit about 3 months. Then they can go about 4 hours. It progress' up, so I learned, about 2 hours each 2 months so that by the time they are (6mo=6hrs, 8mo=8hrs, etc).

Putting a blanket over the crate like a bird cage absolutely quiets any of the dogs that like to whine or bark. Sadie, the well trained one never was a noisy dog to begin with so it never mattered to have to do that. She was always content. She did like having some sort of blanket or bed in there with her, she wasn't fussy which as long as it's something. The puppies did too though they tended to like to play with blankets for a while before settling down.

Here is an interesting tip with dog dominance we found when we were having issues with the 2 adult dogs since we recently introduced one of them in, and Star can attest to the fact as she was on the phone one evening when we had to do it and heard it work. You should never physically put your hand in between 2 dogs fighting to separate them. There are other ways to do it and I'll tell you 2 more after I tell you this one. Take anything metal like for instance a pot or pot lid and metal spoon, a cookie sheet and metal spoon, etc. and bang them together. The noise will interrupt the dogs and they will hear the noise and stop. I'M NOT KIDDING!! Ask STAR! I read it and thought ok, seriously? It WORKS!!! We use that now when, once in a while - not often, our 2 females will get into a spat. It only then takes one person to take one of the dogs by the collar and remove her to the crate. In our case it is Sadie since she is the most well trained. I tell her to go to crate and she goes and Jasmyn, the other one who is not as well trained is held by collar (usually by my oldest difficult child since it's her dog).

As for techniques I spoke of (this is if there is only 1 person available), they suggested looping the end of a lead around the hind legs (as high up to the hips and you can get) of one of the dogs and slipping clip part of the lead through the handle part and attaching it to something availble nearby. Alternatively, if there is 2 people available, they suggest to have each person grasp a dog, again, by their hind legs (no you don't actually hurt the dog) and pull backwards and at the same time spin them outwards which will cause them to have to cross their front paws to try to gain balance and they can't come back at you and bite. NEVER grab and pull collar BACK. If you have to grab and pull collar then pull UP and back. Simply pulling back and not up triggers an instinct in them to fight and lash back at you to bite and continue the fight only in your direction. These are just some things I had looked up when we encountered a problem with suspected dominance issues with Sadie and Jasmyn when I never thought we would have such since Sadie was and is the most docile coon going. She was actually the aggressor each time and Jasmyn is a boxer/pit. Interesting dynamic. We have since learned some of the triggers that cause Sadie to react and start. They are she is being protective of the cats. Jasmyn likes to chase the cats around and bark and corner them. She doesn't hurt them but she just won't leave them alone. Sadie could care less and in fact likes them and will even sleep with them, nuzzle them, etc...The other times is if she doesn't want to play, which is more often the case. She is, as I said, docile, doesn't care to play much and Jasmyn is much like a Jack Russel, ALWAYS wants to play, play, play! LOL

So back to the crate and punishment. Sadie will get put in the crate for punishment ONLY if there has been a dog fight to stop the cycle of fighting (cool down period). The only other time is if she has gotten into the garbage and that is a rare occurrence but it does happen on occasion.

Sadie we can go out and leave loose in the house for a whole day now and not have to put in crate but since getting Jasmyn we put her in crate (her own) at same time as Jasmyn to help reinforce Jasmyn's learning since she hasn't learned what she needs and we believe that if she see's Sadie doing it then she will learn what is expected a lot easier. If that makes sense?
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
Makes sense. It's a lot of what I try to do. And I've used the banging metal thing.........many many times when Precious was here and she and Molly got into it. It was the only thing that worked to get Precious' attention. I'll have to remember to keep 2 metal items set out for banging inside. I have them outside. (metal screws in an old coffee can work great by the way LOUD)

You seem to do with crates sort of like what I do. Sadie doesn't go in without a treat, although it takes more prompting from me than just the treat at this point. I'm so glad Sadie has taken to the crate better this time because it means I don't have to close the living room door which lets Molly go in there with her. I think that makes her feel better too, even though Molly no longer uses a crate. I'm hoping her Honeymoon phase lasts long enough that when I do need to use the crate for Time Out.....it won't affect using it for sleep. It's sort of funny........but on the very rare occasion when Rowdy and Molly would have a spat, instigated by Rowdy of course, I'd use his kennel as Time Out. He'd get a half hour and a stern talking to. Then I could let him out and all would be fine again. lol They've not had a spat in literally YEARS though.

She's doing fine with pottying. No accidents at all so far. But I have noticed the honeymoon phase is beginning to wear off a bit. And she's becoming a little confused over Dog toys vs Kids toys. (I have a toy box full of toys in the dining room for the grandkids. All I do is take the item she is not allowed to play with away and replace it with one she is allowed to play with. This is just a simple normal thing she has to learn. But I am going to have to make a raw hide run this afternoon. Raw hides prevent shoes and everything else from being chewed, while giving her something good to chew. Right now she's chomping on a plastic squeaky toy (a dog toy) that I picked up for Oliver (yes my grandkids like dog toys.....they don't make squeaky toys like that for babies anymore and they're great for teething lol ) I swear she is the only dog I've ever known not to look at one like wth am I supposed to do with that thing? lol So now I'll have someone to buy the cute squeaky toys for other than grandchildren.

I AM majorly peeved off that I can't find the Advantix I bought for Molly & Rowdy. (the whole summer's worth= expensive!) I know it's here in the house, I just can't find where I put them. I was waiting until it was warm enough to bathe molly to apply it. Now it's warm enough and I can't find the darn stuff. omg And I need to go get some for Sadie too, she doesn't weigh enough yet for the dose I have. Because in 2 days we've brought in as many ticks from the yard. ewwww NOT happening! I wonder if Sadie will let me hold her in my arms long enough to weigh her. lmao

Right now, Sadie is learning to self entertain. I don't mind playing with the dogs, but it will be at fairly specific times, not all day long. So learning to self entertain without getting into trouble is important.

She can do this while I hunt down that d@mn Advantix. Sadie's is going to come from the vet.......oddly it's much cheaper (our vet sells it at nearly cost) because I like to fainted with what Molly's and Rowdy's cost me at Pet's mart while the guy is trying to tell me how "cheap" it was. omg
 

Tiapet

Old Hand
Yes, feeding times are issues here too. We have to feed them separately and with separate bowls. Sadie is picky and won't eat certain foods (she's a scent hound so that is part of it), Jasmyn could care less and will eat anything from anything. They would fight over food. They don't fight over treats and can hand out a treat to each at same time oddly enough. Chews are a problem for Sadie, she generally doesn't get them but when she does, they are given to her in our bedroom at night away from Jasmyn (she sleeps in our room, Jasmyn in oldest difficult child's room, both doors are shut). Sadie also doesn't play with any toys at all. Jasmyn will play with any toy. She's great for stealing stuffed animals of the younger difficult child's.

Something I learned recently was that Frontline is an issue. There was a study done and in FL, known for BIG flea problems, it no longer is effect as the fleas have become immune to it. I was told that it has been known to not be effective in many other places as well. We've had problems with both that and Advantix not working. Apparently in TN there is a big problem with heartworms (worse then other places I don't know). Many of the rescue agencies make it mandatory as part of their adoption contracts that you have to have your dog on heartworm medicine, not that you wouldn't want to but I guess some don't do it.

I was upset that the new addition, Jasmyn, came to us from the rescue agency with hookworms! They are suppose to be so thorough on all this and in their own contract make it a point of all these "must do's" etc...and here they are giving away furkids that are infested with worms. I feel for the other dogs that were in the foster home with Jasmyn (about 7 other dogs). If Jasmyn had them so bad as to make her have bloody diarrhea, vomiting and not gaining weight then she had them for a while and they MUST have noticed this??!! No? I'm just glad the difficult child could save her and that the rescue did too as this particular agency rescues them only within the last 24 hours before they will be euthanized. It is a specialized agency that takes in "exceptional" dogs. She had been in foster care for at least 6 weeks before we got her.

Sorry to rant a little and hijack your thread. I'm glad it seems you are having continued good luck with your Sadie. I think you will continue to.
 

Hound dog

Nana's are Beautiful
I chose Advantix this time because word has it that frontline didn't do to well here last year. Usually, I don't bother with anything as I bathe the dogs in antibacterial soap every two weeks and it's just not an issue. But with the ticks I'm seeing, that is a different matter completely.

Honestly? I may never even attempt food/treats/bones/rawhides together, simply because Sadie did not "grow up" here. Molly would share it all, no problem. But I wouldn't feel comfy testing Sadie on it. Know what I mean?? We'll just wait and see.

At our shelter, you're lucky if you don't manage to bring home a dog with distemper or parvo. Seriously, I'm not kidding. Worms are nothing compared to that.......and yeah, they always have to be wormed too. I have adopted out countless dogs from our no kill shelter (at one time it was free to do so) as much to re-home them (they have many dogs that stay there for YEARS) as to keep one of them. I would estimate that at least 80 percent came to me very sick and needing vet care, a few we came awfully close to losing. And not just me, everyone I've talked to (including vets who treat these animals) say the same thing. Enough of that and I just stopped bringing them home. Honestly, the people "running" it are nice enough, I suppose their hearts are in the right place, but they haven't a clue of what they're doing. They can't even get breeds right, even with a full blood. geez They told us Jo Jo was a nearly grown white lab. HA! I didn't know what she was but I knew she was a baby puppy, even as huge as she was. Brought her home and looked online and be danged if she wasn't a Fran's dogs (had a brain fart, can't think of the d@mn breed now to save my life), anyway she WAS very young and would grow to be enormous and we simply did not have enough room for her, so as much as we loved her we re-homed her via a rescue and she found a fabulous forever home.

Sadie is not trained. This is obvious now that she is coming out of honeymoon phase. She does, thank god, know what the word No means and acts accordingly. She doesn't even have basic manners. She's not "bad".........just too energetic with no training, so she is "rude".........tries to say Hello love me by putting her paws on my chest. Uh, no. Mom doesn't put up with such things. And I am now wishing she had not gotten over her fear of the cats, because now she is into chasing them............and they are NOT into being chased. So far this has not been a problem with Bruce inside. He just refuses, goes on the kitchen table and ignores her completely. lol

It will be one day at a time for a while. While I know where she came from ect, I don't know what sort of life she had there. More behavior issues will surface as the honeymoon wears off. She does seem terribly eager to please though, and she is smart, so I'm hopeful training will just be a matter of time. I just sort of wish she'd stop sticking to me like an unwanted shadow because it's getting on my nerves. Bad enough when Bruce does it. lol
 

Tiapet

Old Hand
lol, sounds like Sadie is like our Jasmyn in many ways. Same way with the cats. How about a water gun? Not sure if it will or won't work. Jasmyn is also a shadower. More difficult child (mom to her) then others but she will shadow others. Our Sadie jumps like yours until we have worked with her to learn that she must sit until we give her attention and allow her to do anything upon greating. Sometimes she will still jump at and on certain people but a quick sit and she does exactly that. Sadie is a hefty/solid 60 lbs. and on full extension her paws reach about 5' so, depending on person, sometimes that can mean paws to faces. Not good.

If we come up with anything that works with the cats, I'll post it. We're still working on that one. * nothing like a cat being chased that doesn't want to and then being so scared it's running and pooping/peeing ~sigh~*
 
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