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DD1 is really scaring me I need insights PLEASE
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<blockquote data-quote="susiestar" data-source="post: 429307" data-attributes="member: 1233"><p>Is she sleepy after these episodes? Do you think it is mood cycling that maybe produces this or produces a mixed state - meaning stuck not depressed or manic but sort of both at the same time, often this includes a lot of anger and aggression, at least it has in the few kids I have seen go through this?</p><p></p><p>My other thought is seizures. Has she ever had an EEG? That is the test of brain function - they put electrical leads onto the scalp and record what is going on to look for abnormal activity. You would need a pediatrician neuro to do this. If you get it done at a hospital, such as through the ER be SURE it is a pediatric ER and they are trained in how to do this with kids. Seizures do not just cause the stereotypical behavior where someone drops to the ground shaking, bites through their tongue, etc... Reality is that seizures can and do produce almost every behavior under the sun. EEGs are the test we have that best shows them, but they only show seizures on the surface of the brain. So about 80% of the time no seizures are caught even though they are happening. </p><p></p><p>What does her psychiatrist say about these creepy times? Is she dissociating? Atypical antipsychotics like risperdal and abilify can cause sedation, but I don't know that they would cause what you are seeing as a part of sedation. They are supposed to reduce aggression, so her holding the fork in a threatening way is not at all typical. </p><p></p><p>Paxil is a problematic drug in kids. All ssri/snri drugs are. They made my daughter higher than a kite - she ltierally acted drunk on the starting dose. People with mood disorders can also act this way on them. they can trigger manic episodes that are very hard to stop. Some people grow out of this and are not bipolar, just couldn't tolerate the medication as kids. Others are bipolar and react that way because of that. For many people with bipolar, antidepressants are not medications they can take because they trigger mood cycling. </p><p></p><p>Are you aware that there is a medication protocol recommended by the board that certifies psychiatrists? It is recommended for patients with bipolar and other mood disorders (those that may have bipolar but they don't want to call it that yet). I have long not understood why so many psychiatrists do not follow this and not one has ever had a good answer for not following the protocol. In fact, 3 psychiatrists either refused to answer or changed the subject. The medication protocol is in the book, The Bipolar Child by Papalous, and is probably also on the bpkids.com website. It calls for first giving mood stabilizers at a therapeutic level - one or even two different ones given at the same time, and an atypical antipsychotic. These are to stabilize moods. Once moods are stable many patients do not have symptoms that need further treatment. For those who do still have symptoms that need help, stimulants (for adhd symptoms) or antidepressants like paxil, welbutrin, etc... for depression are given in very small amounts. If the newer medications trigger cycling of moods then they are backed off, moods are again stabilized and something else is tried.</p><p></p><p>We have had many adults with bipolar, and parents with kids with the disorder, who swore that lexapro, paxil, or antoher antidepressant was dealing with all the problems. Then eventually they wind up on mood stabilizers instead and are shocked at how much better things are. They tehn realize how the antidepressants, esp ssri/snri medications, were causing problems for them.</p><p></p><p>One problem with mood stabilizers is that they are SLOW. Plus they often need other tests done to make sure other health problems are not happening (liver function, EKG, etc...), just like atypical antipsychotics do. Mood stabilizers need to be at the therapeutic level for about six weeks before they are fully effective. When your child is having daily or weekly crisis, this is a LOOOOOOOONG time. With many of them you have to slowly titrate up to the therapeutic level and regularly check the level of medications in the blood. </p><p></p><p>I know many drug co reps tell docs that their medications are faster/better for treating bipolar than mood stabilizers. They often will tell docs almost anything to get the doctor to rx their drug. For years neurontin was marketed to doctors as working as a mood stabilizer in spite of the fact that the company knew that it did NOT work that way. They were eventually taken to court over this. I went to school with quite a few people who became drug co reps and the stories about what they are "authorized" to tell a doctor are horrifying - many times it includes lies and half truths phrased in such a way as to make docs and the public believe they do many things that they do NOT do. It is one reason I went searching for medication protocols for various disorders years ago - I realized that many docs are so rushed for time that they don't have time to really read the literature and drug info, so they believe what they are told in the big print by the drug co and at lunches and seminars by the reps. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, sorry I got off topic. Have you asked her doctor why she is not on mood stabilizers if she has a mood disorder?</p><p></p><p>Is it possible for you to set up a camera or use your phone to record how she is when she has a creepy episode? Docs often react better to symptoms they can see and kids don't just pull these behaviors out wehn the doctor is around. I often wished mine would, but the doctor never gets to really see the problems. Then it becomes a matter of how well the doctor listens and if he thinks you are exaggerating or making things up. (I know you are not, but docs do get parents and patients who do, plus they often just don't believe anything they cannot see. It drives me crazy!) So capturing this on video may be crucial to getting her the help she needs.</p><p></p><p>I don't know of any foods that would cause this. I wondered because you say it happens in the evenings, but it just doesn't seem like that kind of reaction. How many hours past her doses of each medication is it?</p><p></p><p>You should start a journal where you record her mood, symptoms, what she did taht day, etc.... Include the time that any rages, creepy episodes, etc... happen. This can really help you (and the doctor) find patterns in what is going on. </p><p></p><p>I am really sorry that you are going through this. From her reaction afterwards, and her fear, I do not think she is pretending. If you haven't called her doctor, that should be done asap. Also, it may be helpful to get her to the ER for evaluation if she is planning to hurt herself or others. Some of this depends on how long the episodes last. If it is an hour or more, try to get her to the ER to be evaluated. If if is shorter, chances are she would be fine when you get there and they would be less than helpful.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="susiestar, post: 429307, member: 1233"] Is she sleepy after these episodes? Do you think it is mood cycling that maybe produces this or produces a mixed state - meaning stuck not depressed or manic but sort of both at the same time, often this includes a lot of anger and aggression, at least it has in the few kids I have seen go through this? My other thought is seizures. Has she ever had an EEG? That is the test of brain function - they put electrical leads onto the scalp and record what is going on to look for abnormal activity. You would need a pediatrician neuro to do this. If you get it done at a hospital, such as through the ER be SURE it is a pediatric ER and they are trained in how to do this with kids. Seizures do not just cause the stereotypical behavior where someone drops to the ground shaking, bites through their tongue, etc... Reality is that seizures can and do produce almost every behavior under the sun. EEGs are the test we have that best shows them, but they only show seizures on the surface of the brain. So about 80% of the time no seizures are caught even though they are happening. What does her psychiatrist say about these creepy times? Is she dissociating? Atypical antipsychotics like risperdal and abilify can cause sedation, but I don't know that they would cause what you are seeing as a part of sedation. They are supposed to reduce aggression, so her holding the fork in a threatening way is not at all typical. Paxil is a problematic drug in kids. All ssri/snri drugs are. They made my daughter higher than a kite - she ltierally acted drunk on the starting dose. People with mood disorders can also act this way on them. they can trigger manic episodes that are very hard to stop. Some people grow out of this and are not bipolar, just couldn't tolerate the medication as kids. Others are bipolar and react that way because of that. For many people with bipolar, antidepressants are not medications they can take because they trigger mood cycling. Are you aware that there is a medication protocol recommended by the board that certifies psychiatrists? It is recommended for patients with bipolar and other mood disorders (those that may have bipolar but they don't want to call it that yet). I have long not understood why so many psychiatrists do not follow this and not one has ever had a good answer for not following the protocol. In fact, 3 psychiatrists either refused to answer or changed the subject. The medication protocol is in the book, The Bipolar Child by Papalous, and is probably also on the bpkids.com website. It calls for first giving mood stabilizers at a therapeutic level - one or even two different ones given at the same time, and an atypical antipsychotic. These are to stabilize moods. Once moods are stable many patients do not have symptoms that need further treatment. For those who do still have symptoms that need help, stimulants (for adhd symptoms) or antidepressants like paxil, welbutrin, etc... for depression are given in very small amounts. If the newer medications trigger cycling of moods then they are backed off, moods are again stabilized and something else is tried. We have had many adults with bipolar, and parents with kids with the disorder, who swore that lexapro, paxil, or antoher antidepressant was dealing with all the problems. Then eventually they wind up on mood stabilizers instead and are shocked at how much better things are. They tehn realize how the antidepressants, esp ssri/snri medications, were causing problems for them. One problem with mood stabilizers is that they are SLOW. Plus they often need other tests done to make sure other health problems are not happening (liver function, EKG, etc...), just like atypical antipsychotics do. Mood stabilizers need to be at the therapeutic level for about six weeks before they are fully effective. When your child is having daily or weekly crisis, this is a LOOOOOOOONG time. With many of them you have to slowly titrate up to the therapeutic level and regularly check the level of medications in the blood. I know many drug co reps tell docs that their medications are faster/better for treating bipolar than mood stabilizers. They often will tell docs almost anything to get the doctor to rx their drug. For years neurontin was marketed to doctors as working as a mood stabilizer in spite of the fact that the company knew that it did NOT work that way. They were eventually taken to court over this. I went to school with quite a few people who became drug co reps and the stories about what they are "authorized" to tell a doctor are horrifying - many times it includes lies and half truths phrased in such a way as to make docs and the public believe they do many things that they do NOT do. It is one reason I went searching for medication protocols for various disorders years ago - I realized that many docs are so rushed for time that they don't have time to really read the literature and drug info, so they believe what they are told in the big print by the drug co and at lunches and seminars by the reps. Anyway, sorry I got off topic. Have you asked her doctor why she is not on mood stabilizers if she has a mood disorder? Is it possible for you to set up a camera or use your phone to record how she is when she has a creepy episode? Docs often react better to symptoms they can see and kids don't just pull these behaviors out wehn the doctor is around. I often wished mine would, but the doctor never gets to really see the problems. Then it becomes a matter of how well the doctor listens and if he thinks you are exaggerating or making things up. (I know you are not, but docs do get parents and patients who do, plus they often just don't believe anything they cannot see. It drives me crazy!) So capturing this on video may be crucial to getting her the help she needs. I don't know of any foods that would cause this. I wondered because you say it happens in the evenings, but it just doesn't seem like that kind of reaction. How many hours past her doses of each medication is it? You should start a journal where you record her mood, symptoms, what she did taht day, etc.... Include the time that any rages, creepy episodes, etc... happen. This can really help you (and the doctor) find patterns in what is going on. I am really sorry that you are going through this. From her reaction afterwards, and her fear, I do not think she is pretending. If you haven't called her doctor, that should be done asap. Also, it may be helpful to get her to the ER for evaluation if she is planning to hurt herself or others. Some of this depends on how long the episodes last. If it is an hour or more, try to get her to the ER to be evaluated. If if is shorter, chances are she would be fine when you get there and they would be less than helpful. [/QUOTE]
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