Dear Alice Farmer;

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by Star*, Aug 20, 2008.

  1. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/20/corporal.punishment/index.html

    Dear Alice Farmer:

    Goodmorning!!! I have a child, aged 18 that I would love for you to analyze. Since you are totally anti-spanking, and feel you know more than God - I'm coming to you for the be all end all of answers for what DO we do.

    Never mind that the studies for the last 2 generations [who's parent's never spanked] have shown a significant, overwhelming, and resounding increase in violence, disrespect, abuse...you know more.

    Since you are going to bat for those who could USE a swat or two on the hiney, and taken out of context spare the rod spoil the child has NO meaning for you - please enlighten us ALL about a swat on the kiester, becuase see - I got swats, never more than 3 - and ONLY if I broke the rules and I'm a great parent and a decent human. I'm now only able to tell you as the parent of an 18 year old that I'm glad my parents had the wherewithall to spank me.

    I bet you were abused as a child - maybe THAT is what you should spend your time and energy on - abuse. Not spanking by well meaning parents who care enough about how I would turn out. I'm so sorry you really do not "GET" this. And please enlighten all my educator friends as to what they SHOULD get to do when a child (by genetic composition) goes berzerk in a classroom and starts hurling desks at other children - because in my VERY humble opinion I don't think throwing him out or suspending him teaches him a thing. I know this for a fact - it only made MY life harder.

    Shed some light on us oh queen of the rays -

    Thanks
     
  2. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    Um...............Star* as much as I love ya, gonna have to disagree on this one with you.

    There is an amazing amount of research that shows that spanking only cultivates violence. There are better, more effective ways to punish.

    Hugs
    Steely
     
  3. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    Um, unless I missed something, they're talking about corporal punishment in school and she said that it was ineffective. I totally agree with her. It teaches the child nothing, causes resentment and negates parental rights/choices.

    So, what is the issue? You can't tell me that you really want to give a teacher the authority to spank your son, do you?
     
  4. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Is okay to disagree.....really -

    I came from a home that did spank. Not beat, or brutalize, or corporal punishment - but I think when you take the ability OUT of schools to have a threat of that magnitude - you are going to get kids like mine who KNOW there is no greater punishment than say - getting sent home. Okay as the single mom NOW how do I go to work? How do I make the rent? I have no family and I cant' leave a 10 year old at home.

    Would a spanking (say 3 swats in front of me by a school administrator) made a difference? I believe it may well have. But I'll never know. And now my son is an 18 year old drop out, who thinks going to GED classes 2 hours 1x a week is getting an education.

    I'm not talking about spanking someone when YOU are angry - I am talking about appropriate punishment. And I can count on ONE hand how many times Dude got spanked - 3 that were overboard (admits with shame) and 2 that he got, once I calmed down and said it was going to happen.

    In OUR world the 2 times he got spanked when I was calm? Those things he has NEVER repeated. So I dunno -

    Good discussion though.........either way you feel - like me who is okay with a controlled number of swats with a controlled adult 0R absolutely no spankings because it only teaches the big person to beat up the little person =

    Thanks Steely - this should be interesting.
     
  5. OpenWindow

    OpenWindow Active Member

    We have corporal punishment at my kids' school and we have to sign a paper saying not to paddle our kids. My easy child begs me every year to allow him to get paddled, because he'd rather do that than go to detention. difficult child also says he'd prefer to get paddled than to have to go to detention. So, I sign the paper so they don't get paddled.
     
  6. Shari

    Shari IsItFridayYet?

    I try to avoid swats if there's other more logical things to do.
    ***
    That said, during wee difficult child's current little mini-series of tyrades, I have resorted to spanking twice now to get him to STOP hurting me or others. Does it stop the behavior long-term? No. Does it stop the dangerous behavior of the moment? Usually, yes, if only for a very short time.
    ***
    difficult child 1 was spanked. He knew the rules and he knew the consequence for breaking them. It didn't matter. He would rather be spanked then get grounded, and he'd rather have been spanked by his dad than me. Go figure. But not one time did spanking stop a behavior in the long run.
    ***
    Am I against it, tho, for an NT child who is able to make associations between behavior and punishment? If delivered as you say, Star, controlled, un-angered, and understood, no, I'm not.
    ***
    Do I want teachers to have the right to spank my kid? Not sure. There's a lot of teachers out there that I would NOT want to have this right. Far too many would use it as their first line of defense, I'm afraid. However, I beleive they should have a right to protect themselves from my child if need be. Heck, I'm his mom and sometimes I have to. I never want to see my child hurt - but worse would be to live with the fact that my child hurt someone else...
    ***
    No answers, just thoughts.
     
  7. Abbey

    Abbey Spork Queen

    I didn't spank my kids, per say, but they sure got a few good swats when younger. (And a few times a slap with the 'kindness spoon.')

    In this day in age, I would NEVER spank a child as a teacher. NEVER.

    Abbey
     
  8. 4sumrzn

    4sumrzn New Member

    Hmmmm....yes, very interesting. I was brought up in a home where we were spanked if need be. Funny thing being.....I only recall getting spanked for something that is considered "natural", which I've mentioned in posts before. The sound of my Dad yelling was enough to make us know he meant business & "yes sir" should follow before he was done yelling. So, for us girls.....we were pretty smart about "getting it" if Dad was upset & learned quickly when his voice would get loud. My brothers.....they weren't as smart.

    As far as school? I went to a Catholic school for 3 years (5th-7th) & recall having to put my hands out on the desk for Sister M to smack my hands 3 good whips with the ruler for passing notes. I tried the note passing one more time after that.....got the ruler again & GOT the hint!!!!! I also remember having a teacher in 2nd grade......she would dig her nails in the back of our necks if we talked too much! I look back at that......it was wrong, but worked (well....I still talked too much & got the nails!) I remember the Principal in Jr High having this huge paddle on his desk with holes in it.......they would put his desk out in front of the office for open house. The parents thought it was GREAT....making all kinds of comments to us kids.

    As far as MY kids.....like I said, I was brought up in a spanking family. easy child has only been spanked twice....once by me, once by husband & he was 3. He's never needed it past that. I always thought it was great that I would be able to use the "threat" of spanking & that would be enough! That's in our home. School? I've never had to think about it with him. But, I think if he would ever be at trouble at school & knew that was the punishment......the trouble would end & he would need a box of tissue. (uh-oh...not saying he is a sissy...he's just sensitive)

    HA.....then came difficult child. I've tried the spanking & realized she doesn't "get it"...even if it was because she ran out in front of a moving car...she did it again. Or, jumped off a 4 foot wall into a lake.....she did it again off the boat after that! What's the point!? Loud voice.....doesn't work either. LOL....haven't figured out what DOES yet! Anyway.....school & paddling for her? NO WAY! NOT an option. The child doesn't understand & the threat of it would go over her head too. Sadly.
     
  9. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Grandpa

    I've run the gamut on this one in my life, from totally against to thinking it is highly effective. My thinking now is that with some kids, in some situations, it works and in others, not.

    The problem with a "total ban", IM(very humble)O, is that a certain contingent of children know that the option has been foreclosed and will take full advantage of that knowledge.

    I know for sure that I myself was deterred from misbehaving by the (credible) threat of corporal punishment. I remember very clearly forgoing the pleasure of bombarding the girls' PE class with water balloons due to fear of a paddling -- which was indeed the fate of my pals Brian and Dave, who were unable to resist the temptation. (Yeah, I know, that's just anecdotal.)

    I was a good boy and never got swats at school, but I did a few times at home. It was so rare that it really made an impression the few times that my parents resorted to it.

    I feel that a swat is justified to enforce certain rules demanding instant, unquestioning obedience -- such as stopping instantly on command, for instance. If I see the child running into danger and yell "STOP!" I want him to stop, without thinking, and if a swat will reinforce making it reflexive, then so be it.

    Do stats show that the states and districts with corporal punishment bans have fewer/less severe disciplinary problems, particularly violence? The report does not indicate. Ms. Farmer's statements that corporal punishment teaches violence and does not deter misbehavior sound like opinions, not facts -- I'd like to see the comparative data bearing out those conclusions. In fact she contradicts herself, saying at another point that it is true that corporal punishment is quick and effective.

    I can see where using violence to punish violence seems hypocritical and counterproductive, sending exactly the opposite message to the one being attempted to be taught. On the other hand, we preach natural consequences, and the natural consequence of violence is reciprocal violence.
     
  10. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Grandpa

    "Please, Br'er Fox, oh please don't toss me in the briar patch!"
     
  11. mrscatinthehat

    mrscatinthehat Seussical

    Hmmmm, must think on this.

    beth
     
  12. I grew up in a spanking family too. I also remember kids getting spanked in school. I remember a few spankings for difficult child and easy child when they were little, but not for many years. I did, I admit, try spanking difficult child a couple of years ago when he was starting to really get out of control. difficult child would just laugh at me and say that doesn't hurt - that is if I could get him turned over. Anyway, I quickly realized that it wasn't effective with him and I also realized that what I was dealing with wasn't "normal" and that there wasn't something deeper going on.

    I really don't think though that I would want teachers to spank my children, just because what some people might think is bad behavior and acting up really isn't just bad behavior and acting up - but part of something more complex.

    Just my opinion.
     
  13. Star*

    Star* call 911........call 911

    Would you allow a teacher to at least HOLD this over a childs head -

    IF

    1.) You were contacted and had to be present
    2.) The teacher was NOT the one spanking - but a principal who was not
    the party that the 'rule or deed' was broken in front of.
    3.) It was the alternative to finding a way to go back to work and not get
    turned into DSS for having NO OTHER CHOICE than to leave a 10 year old at home alone while you went BACK to work to save your job.....because you had been called out of work by the school several times.
    4.) It prevented a "permanent" mark on the record -
    5.) YOU signed a permission slip PER occurrence?
     
  14. Steely

    Steely Active Member

    Nope............I do not believe in it period. No matter what the conditions are. Why would kids learn more from physical harm, than logical reason?

    Spanking models nothing to a child - where all other forms of discipline at least model how to cope with life's and its boundaries.
     
  15. crazymama30

    crazymama30 Active Member

    I think it would depend on the child. I can see it working for some, but it does not work for my difficult child. Tried it. The more we spanked, the more he acted out physically with others. At 7 he would say "That did not hurt." Which made me so angry I had to walk away. I think if the parent gives permission then as long as it is spanking and not beating, then it is ok BUT I believe that parental consent must be given, and if proof of parental consent cannot be found then the child is not spanked.
     
  16. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    i find the article to be interesting. I live in Oklahoma. Our school district totally forbids spanking or other forms of corporal punishment. My dad taught for tons of years in one of the biggest school districts in Oklahoma. Spanking was forbidden there also. husband has coworkers with kids in some of the other big school districts and it is also forbidden in those schools. I wonder where in OK it is used.

    With Wiz there is a direct correlation between him getting spanked and him hitting other kids. BUT he does not see the difference between himself and adults (or didn't for many years). That is part of his aspergers. No amount of spanking kept him from anything.

    there are some kids who I think would learn from controlled spanking. Jess sure did the couple of times she got spanked - it was for MAJOR safety violations like running out into a busy street with-o looking because she was in a tantrum. and for sticking something into an outlet. Things that would seriously hurt or would kill her.

    Not all kids can learn from the same things. I do think it should be something a parent can opt in or out of, IF it is an option in your school district.

    This IS an interesting discussion.
     
  17. meowbunny

    meowbunny New Member

    I've never been opposed to a good whack on the rear or swat of the hand or light thump on the head to get a child's attention. Not a spanking, just the one whack, swat or thump. I used it for emergency situations such as little hands reaching up to a hot stove. For mine, the word "no" or "don't" simply meant "go ahead and it will be discussed later" and the discussion was most definitely two-sided. So, I would have to resort to the one-hit. It was immediate, it was swift and it got her attention enough for her to stop at least long enough for me to remove her from the danger.

    There were a few spankings. They did no good and only made me feel like a bully.

    There is no way I'm going to give another adult permission to spank my child -- whether a principal, teacher, friend or even my mother. She could push more buttons and infuriate more people in 30 seconds than most kids could in 3 days. I wouldn't be willing to risk that they wouldn't lose control.

    One thing about the article that I found very telling and compelling -- the statistics showing that black children were spanked more than white kids. That alone condemns school spankings in my mind. So does the simple fact that it has been repeatedly shown that school spankings deter no one.

    So, given the fact that I know my child would have been one of those repeatedly singled out for the spanking; that minorities are discriminated against in this regard; and that it has little to no real effect on deterring unwanted behavior in schools, I can think of no reason to say yes to it.
     
  18. Wiped Out

    Wiped Out Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Another no vote here. I can understand parents using a spanking when not done in anger and if rarely used. I don't know that there is anywhere in WI where it is legal to spank in the schools.

    I've spanked difficult child but didn't feel good about it afterwards and I wouldn't give permission to ave someone else spank him-for one it did nothing to deter him and like MB said he pushes so many buttons I could see someone losing control. On top of that he is a minority so that could make him more of a target.

    Also, as a teacher, when I look at the kids who are misbehaving, I generally don't see them as kids who would benefit from a spanking, for some it would make them even more defiant. Also as a teacher, I would never feel comfortable spanking someone else's child.
     
  19. busywend

    busywend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I am one to believe that it is not across the board for every child either way. Some could use a good spanking and learn a lesson from it. Others would take to more violent behavior as the lesson if they were spanked.

    I just do not think it is that black or white with to spank or not to spank. Just like most things that we find with kids....nothing works for all of them. Using logic or even Love and Logic will not work for all kids. Spanking will not work for all. Medications will not work for all.

    This is where the school must struggle with inclusion. Sometimes it is not the best thing for a child to be included in the mainstream classroom.

    Now rules are rules. No drugs. That rule applies to all. How you teach all the children that drugs are bad....that would have to come as different methods of teaching to reach them all.
     
  20. Abbey

    Abbey Spork Queen

    Teachers, admins, etc., ARE human believe it or not. Our tempers flare just like a parent. There has been more than one time that I had to step out of the room for a minute to calm down. I guess it was my own personal time out. They're lucky there wasn't a paddle around.

    Abbey
     
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