Defiant or Bipolar - 15 year old daughter is out of control

[my3girls64]

omg.... i am in so much need of advice/help... our 15 year old daughter is getting worse by the day.. been through 4 pyschologists... diagnosed at age 5 with ADHD and medicated and it did nothing... at age 8 went to another doctor and they said she isn't ADHD, only that she is ODD... put us on wait list for a doctor in our insurance program... that took over a year... 5 years later... got dumped by her core group of friends... went into a depression, started high school, got kicked out for possession alcohol (however we believe she hasnt been drinking since then). took her to see a counselor for 6 weeks... she hated him and fought and swore every week at him.... finally my therapist (yes, my therapist, said it's time to get her fully evaluated for bipolar)... i have gone to see a therapist due to the stress she has put on our marriage and my life...

just don't know what to do... we have appointment later this month for her evaluation but she is cunning... she will put on an act and pretend like it's all me and her father that she acts the way she does... how do we get her on film so that we have something to show the doctor as to the "real" behavior she displays daily.. swearing, no respect, doesnt keep up with school work, thnks she can do anything she wants and doesnt care about consequences.

someone out there.. please help us..

 

[Di B]

I can only say god I understand as we are living this with my 16 year old son too ,he hasn't had any proffesionall evaluations thou yet .He is the same everyone thinks he is a nice well spoken lad but his language and behaviours can be appaling at home amd out occasionally .He has had me in ters so may times I have tried so hard but have no idea what's the right or wrong thing to do anymore .I feel we are on a negative spiral right now with no end in sight .I have no words of wisdom but saying that your Occupational Therapist (OT) alone x Di

 

[Calamity Jane]

Hi my3,
Usually, the psychiatrist will meet with you privately for one session to get your take on things. Bring a typed sheet of behaviors, concerns, school issues, etc. so you can make the most the time the doctor has with you. Then, he will meet with your daughter separately. Don't be concerned about your daughter "spinning" the situation to make you look bad; the psychiatrists know how to cut thru the b.s., they're very experienced with teen diagnoses. Just try not to escalate things with her for the time being. Don't yell or accuse, or blame. Just try to hold your boundaries, but don't get into any screaming matches with her. If she challenges you, and wants to pick a fight, just tell her you're not going to go there with her, but you'd be glad to talk about what's bothering her in a calm, rational way.
Good luck. I hope it's typical teen behavior, but you're on the right track to determine exactly what's going on. Keep us posted. Take care.

 

[Giulia]

Hello,
ODD and bipolar can have overlapping symptoms. So telling whatever it is ODD or bipolar is not our job, but the psychiatrist's job.

However, be aware that juvenile bipolar is more often than not misdiagnosed as ADHD and/or ODD. If the for ADHD didn't do nothing and no behavioral solution seem to work, then, an evaluation for bipolar cannot harm.
Also, anxiety can fuel her behavior.

I am quite surprised about a ODD diagnosis without anything else, because ODD is a odd diagnosis (no pun intended). It is extremely rare that a child has only ODD.
It may exist, but it's hyper rare. More often than not, ODD comes along with something else.
If you don't know the something else, you cannot treat efficiently the ODD.

So, I cross my fingers for the evaluation. It can only bring a better outlook for your daughter.

 

[TerryJ2]

Hi, My3girls, welcome.

When she was first diagnosed with-adhd, did she have times when she was up all night and all day? Did she have a lot of meltdowns for no good reason? Or was her temper reined in back then, maybe exploding when she moved from one activity to the next?
in my humble opinion, and lots of others here, ODD is an adjective ... it simply says the child is defiant. It is not a diagnosis. Bipolar would be a diagnosis. Get the difference? It's a garbage bag term.

How was she in school when she was 7,8 9? Did you see a big change when her hormones kicked in?

Are her lies really stupid, or are they actually pretty believable? (It makes a difference, really. )

 

[buddy]

Hi there, wow what a challenge. You have been down a long road. I have pushed record on my phone video and even if not seeing the pics, you get the audio. He never knows I have the sounds off.

I also keep a journal of day to day behaviors so it is not like I am off the top of my head thinking of only negative etc... it lists the day time and behavior and so is much more credible I have found.


Hope that helps and that you get some good updated info. I am sure it is no fun for her either.

Check in often, you are not alone!

 

[soapbox]

Hi, and welcome.
I'm another one who doesn't put much stock in ODD, except as a placeholder... it does flag behavior as an issue, but doesn't provide any info that would help solve the problem. So... in general, ODD seems to mean "we have to dig deeper"... but, because that takes time, at least there is SOME flag that says "there is a problem".

What kind of evaluation(s) are you waiting for?
Who did the ADHD diagnosis? What medications were tried?

ADHD is another strange diagnosis... I'm not saying it's not real (I'm in trouble if it's not... I literally LIVE in the world of ADHD), but... there are other things that look like ADHD - and sometimes ADHD doesn't even look like itself (and gets missed).

Things that caught my attention in your post were that she got the ADHD diagnosis fairly early in school, but medications didn't help. And then... school went downhill from there.

Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) = auditory processing disorder. Actually, there are a number of them, and while the original, classical form involves difficulty processing verbal language, other auditory issues can be serious as well without impacting language development. Even more interesting, symptoms for Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) are extremely similar to symptoms for ADHD... plus, you can have both ADHD and Auditory Processing Disorders (APD). If she hasn't had a Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) evaluation, it is probably worth doing... but make sure they test for the full range of APDs and not just language issues... If they are testing for auditory figure ground, they are probably testing for the rest.

Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) generates significant mental fatigue. The more energy you spend trying to catch the words, the less energy there is to catch the meaning... and the more difficult school - and life - become. It can impact sleep quality. Definitely impacts behavior if not caught early and dealt with appropriately. Does not respond to medications... but there are interventions (like a personal FM system) and accommodations (written instructions, one-on-one for new concepts, etc.) that do work.

There are other possibilties too, but this post is getting long enough!

 

[Giulia]

ADHD is another strange diagnosis... I'm not saying it's not real (I'm in trouble if it's not... I literally LIVE in the world of ADHD), but... there are other things that look like ADHD - and sometimes ADHD doesn't even look like itself (and gets missed).

ADHD's symptoms overlap many neuropsychologist disorders.
But ADHD is not the only diagnosis which can be misdiagnosed. Every mental illness can be misdiagnosed because symptoms overlap.
It will be the super fine details which makes the shrink able to get the right diagnosis.
To complicate the matter, diagnosis can be associated, or between neuropsychologist disorders, or with another physical illness.

No wonder shrinks had a hard time with me !!

About misdiagnosis of ADHD, you hit the nail !! I was misdiagnosed as bipolar when I reached adult age, it was instead ADHD.

 

[my3girls64]

thanks for your input... she was diagnosed at age 5 with ADHD and put on ritlin... didn't work.. then tried strattera.. still so nothing but a very sluggish child... her athleticsm dwindles and that is one thing she is so good at... when stomach issues arose, we took her for endoscopy for celiac allergies... they ruled out that... took her off all medications for ADHD and gave her prevacid for two months... finally after realizing something wasn't right still... i mean. she was always outgoing and a chatterbox in grade school.. she would finish her project quickly and then try to help everyone else do theirs... she wouldnt sit still for quiet time etc... yet, she did her homework and got decent grades... at 10 we took her to a different doctor... this one said she isn't ADHD, just ODD... very misunderstood.. daughter told the doctor that we blame her for everything and no one understands her... go figure... couldnt keep seeing this doctor as she wsnt in our plan... waiting 18 months on wait list for another doctor that was recommended to us... finally she at 15 got kicked out of high school... hated the shcool she was in.. too many wealthy snobs and rich kids with lots of money... she felt inferior... she brought liquor to school for a friend and got caught... now she is in chicago public school and loves it. during this whole ordeal we took her to new counselor... she hated him... wouldnt talk to him.. said ther is notthing wrong except that she hates me... so now since those sessions weren't going well - we stopped and im seeing a therapist who recommends her being tested fully by a licenses pyschiatrist... we too have kept track of instances in which she blows up or is calm... we say she is jeckly and hyde... all day we never know how she will react or behave... she can be very calm and talkative to us.. then an hour later, she flips out over a question we ask, or anything for that matter... she hates beign asked about her homework, friends, school anything... he lies are pretty believable..

 

[Bunny]

If none of the ADHD medications worked for her, and you think that she was on a dose that was strong enough for her, then my bet is that ADHD is not the really problem. ODD as a diagnosis on it's own though? I'm not sure about that one. Did she take the alcohol to school with the intention of being caught since she was not happy in the school she was in? The therapist said that there is nothing wrong with her, except that she hates you. Does he think that she hates you because of typical teenage behavior?

My son is very much like your daughter. Fine and happy one minute. Screaming the next about some slight, real or imagined, and blaming me or his brother for all of his troubles.

Hang in there. We understand.

 

[CHERYL1261]

I can understand what you are going through. My daughter, Heather, is now 16. Her diagnosis is ADHD/BIPOLAR/ODD. She improved a great deal and things were relatively calm between sixth and ninth grades. Her behavior was so good last year she was made President of Student Council at school. It is like she turned at in November and her behavior, etc. did a nose dive. At this time we have her off of her medications and are trying to figure out if her behaviour was better with medications or not.

 

[jph36]

You should take her to a Psychiatrists one that specializes in bipolar. You should go with her and tell the doctor what you have observed. The next visit hopefully the psychiatrists will see your daughter alone. The psychiatrists should have an idea right away what is wrong. I did this with an ex-girlfriend and her daughter was put on the right medication very quickly. Bipolar people need the observation of a psychiatrist other doctors seemed to over medicate them for depression or anxiety. They need a mood stabilizer they need a drug that will bring their highs down and their lows up. Please go to a bipolar specialists that is a psychiatrists. Also be careful how you treat her don't argue with her say I love you I'm not going to talk with you when you're in this mood. And leave her alone if you argue with a bipolar person you are rewarding them. If you leave them alone rather than arguing with them it makes them think. I have been studying bipolar people for years I am not a doctor of any type. I coach people and families through this forgive them for what they have done. But try to correct the situation be calm don't argue. They thrive on arguing and causing chaos. They can turn a family upside down don't fall for it. Don't argue with them.

 

[GoingNorth]

Speaking as a person who's bipolar manifested in her teens, you are wrong. We do NOT thrive on argument. Argument stresses us out and jacks up our anxiety.

I'm no expert beyond living in my skin for nearly forty years. I've researched my disorder extensively. With a bi-polar person you have to wait until the rage is over and then talk it through. When a bipolar person rages it is due to "stuck thinking" and anxiety. Raging most often occurs during mania. You need to have your daughter evaluated by either a neuropsychiatrist, or by a multi-disciplinary team. Both evaluations involve at least 6 hours of testing and interviews.

A regular psychiatrist prescribes medications. Ideally this should be done on the basis of the results of the evaluations.