Didn't want it to come to this, might be asking difficult child to leave

Discussion in 'Substance Abuse' started by Origami, Jan 20, 2015.

  1. Origami

    Origami Active Member

    Well, the optimism I've been feeling has come to an end. After his OD, GFG27 spent a week in detox, was prescribed antidepressants, and seemed to be doing well. He has a couple of appointments set up via the hospital for therapy and a regular doctor. He also has a court date next week for his current possession charge. He's been back to work at his new job that he loves. I talked to his wife last night, who told me that he has used heroin again as recently as last Friday, and he also took something else (Adderal, not sure what) to keep himself awake the next day.

    We had told him after the OD that he couldn't drive our car anymore since we thought he'd been making drug deals while driving it. (He's since denied doing that, says instead that his high-school buddy delivers the drugs to him.) On Saturday, we let him drive to the laundromat and I told him to not drive anywhere else, that we couldn't afford to have our car impounded. He said he had set up an alert on daughter in law's phone that would tell her when he went outside of a specific boundary they had set up. husband and I sat there talking to him about all this and he was acting as if all was well and good. We thought he was taking steps to get his act together.

    So while we had been talking to him about driving, he sat there innocently after he had just used heroin the night before.

    Last night daughter in law and I talked a long time about how he's had so many second chances, things were looking up, etc. She's been through the mill with him. Since she and the grandkids (age 6 and 3) have been living with us, we've got to know her a lot better and see that she's trying to be responsible and do the right thing. She's never done drugs herself beyond smoking pot. She said that they've been saving money to move, and she found out he's been withdrawing the savings to buy drugs.

    I told her that we couldn't go on housing him if he continued to do drugs. She agreed that we shouldn't have to, and apologized for having lived with us for so long. She had hoped that difficult child would get clean, they would rent an apartment, etc. She now says she can't risk depending on his income again because she doesn't want to be without means to pay the rent if (when) he gets fired or flakes out again. She works part time (almost full time) but the wages aren't enough for rent around here. She's on a waiting list for public housing, but that can take years.

    It makes me sad to even write this. I told husband about it, and he just told me that he thinks we should ask difficult child to leave our house. I told daughter in law last night that we'd probably do so, but I didn't have to want to face actually doing it. I just wanted difficult child to get better and do better. The issue of daughter in law and the grandkids complicates things. They were going to move out in a couple of months before my daughter returns from college in May and needs her room back again.

    I don't want to see daughter in law and the babies homeless, and I can't stomach the fact that my son would care more about getting high than about taking care of his family. When he's not high, he's an attentive, caring father and general nice person. When he's high, he's just out of it, sleeping mostly, and not caring about anything. How can the same person have two different and seemingly opposites sides?

    The difference between me and husband is that he will actually follow through with kicking difficult child out, no more discussion needed. I'd rather wait and see if things get better, although logically I know he's had enough time to make some changes. But then, I've also heard that everyone relapses several times before kicking the habit, and maybe we should be patient with him and wait until he's had a chance to visit these doctors and such. Am I being realistic at all, or should I just let husband lower the hammer? He wants to talk to difficult child tonight.
  2. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Hon, this is so hard. We are all different. I handled my daughter's drug use quickly and the car was no longer EVER hers to use. Not because she may go somewhere bad. She went to bad places on foot too. This is hard to say, but it needs to be said and I know you have such a good, soft heart and it is hard to hear. Your husband is right in this. Nothing is going to get better the way things are. Haven't you suffered enough? You don't think you've been patient enough and he keeps letting you down? Your son is not a kid. You've been MORE than patient. Like so many of us, you have been his doormat and have been living in a magic world (again like many of us) where he suddenly gets better. Drug addicts don't work that way.

    Your son shouldn't ever be in ANY car NOT because your car could be impounded, but because he is a heroin addict and has been using drugs for years and years and bluntly he could die in that car and take other people with him. Drug addicts have no business being on the road, no matter what, for any reason. Your son is probably always impaired from the drugs, even if he takes a day off, and I don't know if he ever does, nor do you. Drugs destroy their brains. They need a few years to recover from this illness and prove they are fit to drive, but if you don't get him off the road something much worse than making a drug deal (which of course he does) is going to happen. I also need to share what my daughter has shared with me and it is something people who are still using will never admit because they know how it will anger us. My daughter, who was entrenched in drug life and times it's culture, told me straight out, "Mom, if you use drugs, you sell them. That's just the way it is. There is nobody who just uses drugs and is too moral to sell them. If you use drugs you have no morals. You do what you need to do to have money both for drugs and for other pleasures." She also told me that Adderrall, one of her favorite drugs, was routinely crushed in pillcrushers and snorted, either alone or with cocaine and other dope. It is very potent that way. Many drug users try to steal young kid's ADHD medications as they are all speed. If I'd known that they were as abused as they are, I would have forbidden my son from ever having even tried ADHD medication. But that's another thread. Adderrall went for $10/pill in my daughter's drug days ten years ago. They probably are more expensive now. The money he is saving living with you is being spent on costly drugs. Bet he has no savings at all, although he has lived at home for so long.

    What if your grandsons are in your car and your son is high or is fighting the affects of having been high and (worse case scenario...use your imagination). No drug user should be in a car whether he or she cries, jumps up and down, steals, threatens, swears on a million bibles that he is clean...never ever. It scares me that so many people with drug using kids let them drive their vehicles. You can't stop their "friends" from lending them their cars. Yes, they are THAT stupid. My daughter had friends lend her their cars and she crached up a few and got into terrible trouble, but YOU can morally take a stand. You can decide to keep him as safe as you can, to keep your daughter in law and grands as safe as you can and KEEP STRANGERS SAFE from your son. He is a danger to them on the road. Even just to go to the laundromat. And you know he probably wouldn't just go to the laundromat. He is a heroin addict, one of the hardest drugs to kick. Some never do. I pray he does. In my opinion only, and I could be wrong, but only tough love will possibly, and only possibly, get your son to decide his life is worthwhile as are the lives of others. Being accomodating to him while he snows you will not work. Believing him after all this time is naive. It's good he has a job. He can get out of your house, if you have the nerve or will to do that, and take his drugs with him. I made my daughter leave at nineteen. I cried for three straight weeks. I cried in my car, in the supermarket, at work, at home, in my husband's arms, while I watched movies...I cried until I had no more tears. BUT.SHE.QUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Dang, it worked! And she will say that was a big reason she quit, along with getting away from the town she lived in and refusing to make new druggie friends.


    But heroin is very hard to kick and if you enable him by making his life cozy, he really has no motivation to do anything differently and he isn't. He is nearing his thirties. It isn't cute anymore. It's not a stage. It's becoming who he is, what his life is. I have no idea why your daughter in law can't support the grands without your son...I don't remember. But if you feel better letting her stay with you and letting the grands stay, you can choose to make your son leave and keep the others with you. I would probably have kept the grands and that's it, but it's your life and you have to choose what you AND YOUR HUSBAND can live with. Your husband's opinion matters. This can't be good for your marriage. So much...so much...

    Now everyone's advice is given with a "take what you find helpful and leave the rest" attitude. Sometimes something will stick with me. I've had it happen here. I don't know if I helped you at all, but I don't believe treating him this well as he endangers his life and the lives of others, just because perhaps he guilts you out, is the way to get any sort of peace for yourself or any change in him.

    You have a younger son who is not exactly heading in the right direction either. He is seeing his brother live comfortably at home while he uses drugs. He is watching how you handle it.

    I hope I offered something. Maybe I didn't, but I do wish you luck and love and hope for the very, very best. You just seem like a very nice person...probably too nice to have to make such tough decisions about your grown children. But they are not babies anymore. You son is a man.

    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  3. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    I'm so sorry to read this. I just don't know what more you can do! His wife certainly needs to control the money! When I was first married to Jabber, we had two accounts, one all our joint money went into and one that was just his...about $200 a pay period. That was his to do with as he pleased. The rest paid the bills, etc., and was "mine". (Yeah...he's put up with a lot.) Maybe your daughter in law could get something like that set up where he can't drain the joint account? Then again, if he's using he might not agree.

    Which doesn't answer your question as to whether to make him leave but I'm just at a loss myself. It's somewhat horrifying to think of a father in the home with young kids doing heroin...in his own parent's home. I think the right thing to do would be to make him leave...but I am much like you...it would tear me up if there is a possibility he could get it together. But really, what else is left? After an od and detox, he's still using.
  4. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    I'm on Lil's side with the money, but in reverse. daughter in law can open up a solo account of her own, and move into it the funds that are necessary for bills etc. He will have no access to that. She needs to protect herself and the kids.
  5. Origami

    Origami Active Member

    Thanks Lil and IC. I'll talk to daughter in law about what she can do to protect herself financially. When all this blew up last year and she kicked him out originally (actually Nov. 2013), he wasn't being all that generous and was acting like it was her problem to figure out. Since they've reconciled, I'm not sure if he'd be as mean, but I don't know.

    I don't think it's a matter off whether we'll ask him to leave, but when. husband seems to be thinking "immediately" and I'm thinking to give him a week or two. We'll continue to help out daughter in law and the kids until they can find another place.

    MWM, you are so right. daughter in law said as much last night, that he's getting too comfortable at our place and knows that we'll take care of everyone. It's almost like he's forgotten about the independence he's always been so proud of and has taken a step back in responsibility and maturity. He had been living on his own since age 18 until all this mess started, taking care of his family, etc.

    Again, you hit the nail on the head. He has already commented on this, and I think if he sees we are serious about correcting this situation he will take notice. He and brother have been on good terms lately, no more blowups like the ones that happened before, but I think younger difficult child resents what he calls "coddling the drug addict."
  6. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    That's pretty much what I meant. We had both our paychecks direct deposited into one account and then an auto-transfer of his "allowance" to his account. If he had no ability to withdraw from the original account, she would have control of the money.

    Wow...if even the younger son thinks you are coddling the addict, I'd have to say you probably are. If there is any plan to let him stay...I'd make it conditional on drug tests ever couple days: one bad one, and he's out.
  7. 2much2recover

    2much2recover Well-Known Member

    About daughter in law/grandkids homeless, wouldn't their situation be given higher priority for public housing if they were about to be homeless? If it would help her and the kids to get into public housing, it might end up being the best solution to A. kick him out B. give her notice (check with housing authority first - I mean)
  8. Origami

    Origami Active Member

    husband was going to say something to him last night, but my daughter came over and we didn't want to have the talk in front of her. She tends to be judgmental and theatrical, so we wanted to avoid that.

    We talked to daughter in law this morning as we were driving her to work. She said it's worse than we all thought, and he has been shooting up. She found needles and alcohol swabs, which he tried to explain away. He told her he took some Ritalin to stay more alert after the heroin. She's familiar with these signs since her sister is a hard-core heroin addict who's currently in prison for the second time. She said when her sister started shooting up, it was downhill from there.

    She asked us to wait until difficult child gets his next paycheck to kick him out. She wants to transfer money from their joint account into her personal account so she'll have something to help her and the kids. She said she can afford a small rent on her own, which would mean moving to a not-so-great part of the city.

    I'm trying to keep the sadness at bay, as don't need to be teary eyed all day at work. This would all be easier if difficult child was a jerk, but he's still the nicest person. Last night at dinner, he was joking around with everyone, then was playing with his kids and reading them stories before bedtime. This morning he seemed relaxed and friendly, normal. He's so handsome, smart, nice, and self-destructive and pathetic.
  9. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    Oh Origami, my heart just breaks for you when I read these posts, but I can't imagine anything else you can do. Maybe, just maybe, being alone and losing his wife and the kids and the roof over his head will force him to serious rehab.
  10. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    I don't blame your daughter for judging her addict brother.

    My other grown kids judge my difficult child, his filthy mouth, and his treatment of family. Everyone judges. If you do bad stuff you will be judged, except maybe by a loving mother. Fathers tend to make more sense in my opinion. They see it straight, without emotion, and want the problem dealt with pronto. I wish I'd listened to my hubby when my daughter was using drugs. He was a 'step" so he felt funny telling me that I was deluding myself about how much or little drugs Daughter was using, but he was right. I didn't want to hear it. Stupid, stupid, stupid me.

    Oragami, read the thread "The Ten Drugs Most Addictive Drugs" that I posted here. Heroin is #1. It is not realistic that he will stop no matter how many times he goes to rehab. It is not realistic of you to expect him to be able to care about his kids, his wife, and you. It's a very serious sickness. The only one who can help himself is himself and there is such a need to use heroin that it is very, very, very hard to stop the craving. You need to switch from trying to "help" him to letting him either help himself or else make good suggestions for daughter in law and maybe try to guardianship of grandchildren. Sounds like neither can care for them and sounds like YOU want to. Kids aren't dumb. They know. They do not need to carry on Dad's legacy though. THAT you can help. I would never sacrifice my grands and keep them around Dad just because "Dad is my son and I love him" and hope "someday" he changes. What he is TODAY, makes him in my opinion undeserving of even attempting to be a father or even being around them.

    I hope you realize one day that the kids are better off if he is not around their father. The older they get, the more they will know. daughter in law? I don't know. I have no strong feelings about her other than wondering why she can't get a job and take care of the kids herself and why she'd choose to stay with a heroin addict. What you do with her, you do with her.

    Please do read about heroin addiction. Other drugs may be more hopeful to quit. Heroin is not. You have other loved ones who need you. I hope you consider yourself somebody who needs your love and nurturing. Face the truth boldly and make changes (remember, this is just ME babbling and you take what you like, if any, and leave the rest). My advice would be to make him go for the sake of the children and then decide what else you are going to do.

    You have an already unruly seventeen year old son who needs to see you take serious action. He has seen it all and you don't want him to follow in his brother's footsteps. Contact with his brother right now, is, in my opinion, a very bad thing. He's at that age where he could go either way a nd you will know soon which way seventeen year old will go. Please don't tempt fate. Please be good to YOU!!!! (((Hugs)))!
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  11. Origami

    Origami Active Member

    MWM, I did read the posting about heroin addiction. I understand it logically, but I still don't want to believe that my seemingly intelligent son who formerly told me how stupid it would be to ever start heroin, has become the person he used to disdain. He had some former roommates who were addicts and stole from him, and he swore he'd never be like that. But things have changed, and I'm facing the reality that he's not that person anymore.

    daughter in law does have a job, but it doesn't pay well. She said she can probably get by on her income, but they would be under the poverty level for sure. She's already receiving food stamps and Medicaid, so is well-versed in obtaining social services. Unfortunately, guardianship of the grandkids isn't an option since husband and I both work full-time and don't have the means to pay for child care. I doubt daughter in law would go for that idea anyway, since she's a devoted mom and determined to get by. She has a large extended family that will help her somewhat, but they're all a little dysfunctional.

    As for why she chose to stay with a heroin addict? I think she had the same hope we all did, that he would see the light and change. She was talking about divorce a year ago when all this came to light, and then tried I think a last-ditch effort to fix things. For a while, it seemed like things were working out, but now it's all fallen through again.

    I told husband that I hate the fact that asking him to leave makes us look like the bad guys, when in fact it's difficult child who made the bad decisions.
  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Oragmi, it is unlikely he will change anytime soon. He is THAT person...a heroin addict. It isn't going to get better any time soon. It is faulty, illogical thinking to believe otherwise. He is not the person he used to disdain. He has a physical addiction to heroin, the most addictive drug there is, and that means he is ill and can't just change and won't just change.

    daughter in law can make it on a small salary. If you are under the poverty line you can get a lot of help. Better she learn to live on her own, in my opinion. At least they will not be living in danger with their dad. I had live low income for three years after my divorce and I had three kids. I made it. You need to get assistance, food stamps, job counseling, and any benefit allowed, but it can be done. My kids ate and got clothing from others or at thrift stores and nobody even knew where they bought them at.

    DILneeds to grow up too or your grand children have two children as parents and you two. That will not bode will for them in the future as their immediate role models are not acting like adults so they have poor examples and could end up on your couch with two kids also, in your very elderly years, if you allow it.

    Who cares if drug addicts think of you as the "bad guys?" My daughter yelled and swore when I threw her out and told me she would never speak to me again. Hello! She quit and we are very close and her baby is getting great care from her mother and her mother's SO. They all think we are bad guys unless we give them money, lodgings for free, a car, plant them a money tree and let them get high while living with us if they want to. They are selfish and unable to move on. Drug addiction is horrible, but only the addicted person can change his life.

    What if Brother decides to introduce Seventeen to heroin? I wouldn't want them in contact. It is common for one sibling to introduce another to his drug of choice. And seventeen is a bit of a rebel and may agree "just once." Well, we all know how just once goes with heroin.

    "Never trust a drug addict. They lie. A lot." From my daughter, former drug addict.

    I hope you do see that your son is a bad influence on everyone right now. Perhaps he will be the minority who are heroin addicts and clean it up. Then YOU can change toward him. Nothing says we have to be hard on them forever. I am very giving to my daughter now, often give her stuff and buy tons and tons of things for my granddaughter, who is so beloved and doesn't need it, but I just WANT to do it because I am so proud of my daughter and so in love with my granddaughter. But she got nothing when she was killing herself. She WAS killing herself. Your son is killing himself too. Heroin kills. A lot. I hope he doesn't OD it in front of his children. They will never forget it.

    Hugs for your poor hurting mommy heart. I do get it and I feel so badly for you. But I feel it is more serious than you are letting yourself believe. And that can be a disaster for everyone in your family.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  13. stressedmama

    stressedmama Active Member

    I'll keep this short, but I'm with your husband, too. difficult child needs to go...NOW. And I think emotionally supporting daughter in law is a good idea, but she needs to figure out how to make it on her own with the kiddos. If you choose to help buy some groceries for them, go for it.

    It's hard, I know. We all know. But it really is the best decision for ALL of you.

  14. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    You can support daughter in law in all sorts of ways without having them in your home. Not "just" emotionally, but in any other way you choose and can afford. Occasional babysitting so she can get out once in a while, help finding good used kids cloths, all sorts of things that are real help and save $$ without costing you much...

    But I agree she needs to be on her own. Might need help from social services or whatever, but that doesn't matter. She and the kids need their own space.
  15. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    I definitely think with his drug use that difficult child needs to go. I think if it was me I might off daughter in law and the grandkids a place to stay until she can get on her feet. If she chooses to be homeless with husband then that's her choice but i think I would do what I could to help the grands.
  16. Origami

    Origami Active Member

    The latest development is that daughter in law told difficult child that she doesn't want him around the kids while he is using, and unless he makes some dramatic changes he would have to leave. He said, OK then, he'll just leave. She was pretty upset about it yesterday and said he was telling her it was her fault he had to take heroin because she was such a terrible person, etc. He told her he feels "trapped." Later she told us that he said he needs a couple of weeks to get an apartment for himself. I told her that it's not surprising that he would try to blame his drug use on other people, and that she shouldn't think she had anything to do with it.

    I'm in agreement, this is the time for daughter in law to become independent. I think she's resourceful enough, and is just a little nervous about the changes right now. We're definitely on board to help her and the grandkids, but staying holed up in our middle bedroom surrounded by piles of clothes, toys, etc. isn't a good long-term plan for them (or us). I think moving in with us was her last-ditch effort to salvage her marriage and to make a normal life for her and the kids, so I don't begrudge her that. When we all thought he was serious about quitting, it seemed like they were on track to be able to get a nice place to live, etc. but that's gone by the wayside.

    It's surprising to me how things can change from one thing to another in a matter of days, or that when we know what's really going on, everything changes. I honestly can't figure out how or why difficult child was a seemingly loving husband, father, and son one day, and now he's ready to walk away from it all. I know these things happen all the time, but having never experienced this before, I'm bewildered. I guess there's no real explanation for it, probably.
  17. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    It's not "him". It's the addiction. It becomes more important than anything and anyone else in their lives.

    The REAL "him"... probably isn't that way. But without dealing with the addiction, there is no way to know for sure.
  18. Origami

    Origami Active Member

    In a weird way, that makes me feel better. I've been thinking I've created some kind of monstrous person, or what happened to my son? Maybe he's still in there somewhere, the real "him," but unfortunately lost for now.
  19. 2much2recover

    2much2recover Well-Known Member

    Such a sad story. I hope you have better days ahead Origami :notalone:
  20. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Until he quits, and remember it is HARD to quit heroine...it is the most addictive drug there is...you won't see him. I believe he has quit for spurts, but then relapsed and he is uncaring about all but his drug when he relapses. I read something interesting in an article about drug abuse. It is often treated now as a chronic illness, as one does not usually totally get better with certain drugs, heroin being one. There are other drugs he can take to make him not crave the heroin, but I'm sure you know about them.

    I did date a guy whose brother had used heroine and at the time had then been on methadone for three years and functioned well. He did relapse eventually and his brother drove down to chew him out and drag him home because he has custody of his little boy and he left him in the care of his grandparents who were in their late 70s. He got on methadone again and stopped using heroin. I have no info as to how long it worked or if it is still working because the relationship with the brother ended, but I think of him when I read about parents of heroin addicts. Maybe that is what "they" (whoever "they" is) mean when "they" say some professionals treat drug addiction as a chronic disease. I think that's smart. Continue treatment and cheking in and maybe use a less harmful drug so that the other drug is no longer desired??? I don't think NA meetings are enough.

    Have you tried this?

    I feel badly for you and wish you did not have to deal with this. Sadly...you do.