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Diff between AS and antisocial personality disorder?
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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 426876" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>I wouldn't worry about thelabels. I think there are a lot of conditions which appear to overlap. Different experts define different things and sometimes there is a connection between them tat can go uinrecognised. For example, Hans Asperger defined a condition which was named after himself. This happened in Germany at about the same time Leo Kanner was describing autism. Neither really knew about the other's work and we only really learned about Asperger's Syndrome in the last 30 years or so. There is a lot of overlap between the two conditions as described, and the new DSM criteria are trying to resolve this overlap.</p><p></p><p>Medicine is an inexact science. neuropsychologist medicine doubly so. An unqualified person is not really able to firmly say this or that; even on this site, we can suggest, we can say "It really feels like this," but we also follow with, "Let's check it out with an expert."</p><p></p><p>As for the empathy training:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What worries me about this method, is that whether this is antisocial personality disorder or Asperger's, either disorder can learn to mimic empathy and distress by your method. All you are doing is teaching him that once he shows the outward signs of distress, you will ease up on him. These kids learn FAST. It may not be the healthy lesson you believe it to be - because to him, it can look like you asserting control over him, bullying hjim, because you can. Might is right. It may not be the best lesson for him. Instead, let him feel these things naturally, as rthey occur. Use life's natural lessons, don't manufacture them.</p><p></p><p>For example, difficult child 3 left his bike out in the rain. He was upset because he ended up with a rusty bike chain. He took his bike down to the local maintenance man who scolded him for his carelessness, then helped him work on his own bike to get it working again. It was a valuable lesson.</p><p></p><p>I have often said that people on the spectrum DO have feelings, they do feel very keenly, in fact. Sometimes too keenly. But they don't always express it in ways we recognise. </p><p>At church on Sunday, I had to run the service while a friend of mine was the appointed speaker for the day. He is a 60 year old man with a recent diagnosis of Asperger's. he has himself under very tight control, always, but I noticed he was more stressed than I had ever seen. I tried to talk to him to discuss basics - the readings, the music choice. I had a running sheet I had printed. But he was so stressed, he kept putting his hands up and out in front of him, warding off. Then he would raise his hands as if to cover his ears, then drop them. He finally said to me, "I'm not coping well this morning. Please don't try to talk to me right now." He later told me he had prepared his talk on the wrong set of readings, and only discovered his mistake late the night before, so he had stayed up late re-writing his talk. he did a good job, and afterwards was a lot more relaxed and we were able to talk. He knows we understand, so he was able to communicate with us. But I have never seen those gestures from him before, he is usually so controlled. I have never seen him cry or even show distress. He smiles, sometimes laughs. He's perhaps one of the most intelligent people I know. Remarkably well skilled socially, all things considered. But we do notice gaps sometimes, as I did on Sunday.</p><p></p><p>People with Asperger's learn social skills by imitating what we do. So the best way to teach them is not to merely instruct, but to demonstrate what you want through your own behaviour towards them. Please do not punish him by taking stuff away in order to provoke a reaction. I think it is really a bad idea, long-term. However, if an opportunity arises for you to point out to him that someon is hurting because they have lost something precious, you can give him a hypothetical, or even demonstrate it as long as it is only a demonstration and not an actual punishment. For example: "You played with Judy's favourite doll and broke the doll's head open. Judy is really upset. I know you don't think dolls are important, and they aren't important, to you. But to Judy, that doll is VERY important. The most important possession she has. What would you think your most important or favourite possession would be? Now can you imagine how you would feel, if Judy had taken that possession of yours and accidentally dropped it down the drain? You would be very upset, and angry at Judy even if it was an accident. Well, as bad as you would feel, that is how Judy feels right now. Can you think of anything you could do, to stop her from hurting so much inside? What do you think we could do to help her?"</p><p>The aim here - find a way to fix the doll, or make amends somehow. Help him really understand, through his imagination (yes, they can do it, especially if you can bring it back to his own fears and his own interests) how the other person feels, by relating it to how he would feel in a situation that is sufficiently relevant to him and his own interests.</p><p></p><p>We have found this has worked best with our boys especially. it has also taught them more directly, to independently look for and apply empathy.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 426876, member: 1991"] I wouldn't worry about thelabels. I think there are a lot of conditions which appear to overlap. Different experts define different things and sometimes there is a connection between them tat can go uinrecognised. For example, Hans Asperger defined a condition which was named after himself. This happened in Germany at about the same time Leo Kanner was describing autism. Neither really knew about the other's work and we only really learned about Asperger's Syndrome in the last 30 years or so. There is a lot of overlap between the two conditions as described, and the new DSM criteria are trying to resolve this overlap. Medicine is an inexact science. neuropsychologist medicine doubly so. An unqualified person is not really able to firmly say this or that; even on this site, we can suggest, we can say "It really feels like this," but we also follow with, "Let's check it out with an expert." As for the empathy training: What worries me about this method, is that whether this is antisocial personality disorder or Asperger's, either disorder can learn to mimic empathy and distress by your method. All you are doing is teaching him that once he shows the outward signs of distress, you will ease up on him. These kids learn FAST. It may not be the healthy lesson you believe it to be - because to him, it can look like you asserting control over him, bullying hjim, because you can. Might is right. It may not be the best lesson for him. Instead, let him feel these things naturally, as rthey occur. Use life's natural lessons, don't manufacture them. For example, difficult child 3 left his bike out in the rain. He was upset because he ended up with a rusty bike chain. He took his bike down to the local maintenance man who scolded him for his carelessness, then helped him work on his own bike to get it working again. It was a valuable lesson. I have often said that people on the spectrum DO have feelings, they do feel very keenly, in fact. Sometimes too keenly. But they don't always express it in ways we recognise. At church on Sunday, I had to run the service while a friend of mine was the appointed speaker for the day. He is a 60 year old man with a recent diagnosis of Asperger's. he has himself under very tight control, always, but I noticed he was more stressed than I had ever seen. I tried to talk to him to discuss basics - the readings, the music choice. I had a running sheet I had printed. But he was so stressed, he kept putting his hands up and out in front of him, warding off. Then he would raise his hands as if to cover his ears, then drop them. He finally said to me, "I'm not coping well this morning. Please don't try to talk to me right now." He later told me he had prepared his talk on the wrong set of readings, and only discovered his mistake late the night before, so he had stayed up late re-writing his talk. he did a good job, and afterwards was a lot more relaxed and we were able to talk. He knows we understand, so he was able to communicate with us. But I have never seen those gestures from him before, he is usually so controlled. I have never seen him cry or even show distress. He smiles, sometimes laughs. He's perhaps one of the most intelligent people I know. Remarkably well skilled socially, all things considered. But we do notice gaps sometimes, as I did on Sunday. People with Asperger's learn social skills by imitating what we do. So the best way to teach them is not to merely instruct, but to demonstrate what you want through your own behaviour towards them. Please do not punish him by taking stuff away in order to provoke a reaction. I think it is really a bad idea, long-term. However, if an opportunity arises for you to point out to him that someon is hurting because they have lost something precious, you can give him a hypothetical, or even demonstrate it as long as it is only a demonstration and not an actual punishment. For example: "You played with Judy's favourite doll and broke the doll's head open. Judy is really upset. I know you don't think dolls are important, and they aren't important, to you. But to Judy, that doll is VERY important. The most important possession she has. What would you think your most important or favourite possession would be? Now can you imagine how you would feel, if Judy had taken that possession of yours and accidentally dropped it down the drain? You would be very upset, and angry at Judy even if it was an accident. Well, as bad as you would feel, that is how Judy feels right now. Can you think of anything you could do, to stop her from hurting so much inside? What do you think we could do to help her?" The aim here - find a way to fix the doll, or make amends somehow. Help him really understand, through his imagination (yes, they can do it, especially if you can bring it back to his own fears and his own interests) how the other person feels, by relating it to how he would feel in a situation that is sufficiently relevant to him and his own interests. We have found this has worked best with our boys especially. it has also taught them more directly, to independently look for and apply empathy. Marg [/QUOTE]
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