difficult child paranoia anxiety both?

[Jena]

hi

so yes endless posts about me and my family as of late lol.

so difficult child and i had a really good day we did the dog park, than we worked on school work the library than out to eat and a movie.

so we go into town to the movie and difficult child says "their pointing at me". what i say? them over there in the movie theatre.

i said those girls are so far away, we are in the middle of the road. they cant' even see you inside the truck from where they are.

difficult child no they can see me their pointing at me and laughing.

we get home she has total meltdown over going into our own den. hysterical crying for 30 minutes afraid to go in there because the light is off. name calling me, carrying on, just endless. all due to light off. states if i go in there i'll be killed than you'll be sorry. totally serious by the way.

i said there is no way i'm walking you into our den. your going to be 12, you need to overcome your fears and anxiety and walk into that den and prove to yourself it's our den and no big deal. than i tried this is your paranoia and anxiety talking put it in a box on the shelf. and cover it. logically you know no one's in the den and it's safe. i'Tourette's Syndrome just quiet in there.

on and on this went. till finally she caved in. as i was talking to her in our own home she said be quiet to me and ssh me as if someone was here with us and they'd hear.

i just looked up schizophrenia also. this has been going on for years with her. ppl are talking about me when we go out to eat, their looking at me etc. trying to convince her this is not happening. i always said ok it's anxiety. yet is it? her paranoia level's pretty high. she doesnt' have dillussions. i don't think she' hears things yet she says she hears kids whispering about her in situations where they aren't at all. is that hearing things or just anxiety.

wanted to add this is a huge piece of why she isnt' able to function in school. everyone's talking about her according to her. isn't able to walk thru the front door their looking and pointing at me. can't do anything in school because well their looking pointing talking about me. i've always said ok she's just anxiety ridden, yet is she or do we have all the wrong diagnosis's on this kid and she's paranoid schizophrenia?? clearly gotta go back to pysch doctor

anyone have any thoughts? zyprexa doesn't seem to be helping a whole lot with this at 10mg. seroquel seemed to though

she was soo happy too had a good day with me structured busy and than the hysterics. often we go thru this after a good day the meltdown

 

[smallworld]

Only a psychiatrist would be able to tell you what her true diagnosis is.

Perhaps she melts down after a "good" day because she's had too much sensory stimulation. Maybe you need to pace her activity level a bit more. Do an activity and then build in some downtime. Do another activity and then another period of downtime. You may be able to reduce meltdowns with this sort of schedule.

Zyprexa is actually a stronger antipsychotic than Seroquel. But again, only a psychiatrist would be able to tell you the right medication choice for your daughter.

Hang in there.

 

[Jena]

i did just that as you said. i did dog park than break at home she watched tv and just sat for a bit with-lunch. than did the schoolwork break again, than the library you get the idea.

i'm just wondering i'm been researching what is the difference between paranoia and ppd i think? and paranoia brought on by anxiety? she's had this for years. literally

 

[HaoZi]

Sounds similar to the distorted thought process my kiddo goes through. That's lessened a bit on her new medication mix.

 

[Jena]

she has that also? did anyone ever diagnose her with-paranoia? difficult child does this since forever their talking about me, their looking at me, etc. than tonight going off the charts once home also.

 

[HaoZi]

In kiddo's case it seems to be anxiety-based projecting, i.e. I did badly on this test because I didn't get a perfect score, therefore EVERYONE thinks I'm stupid.

 

[Jena]

ah i've heard you say that before. did she ever do the thing mine does that i wrote about? their whispering about me i hear them their pointing i see them. yet they never are.

 

[HaoZi]

She's claimed that they talk about her, that they think she's stupid, they say she's stupid, that they think she should die, etc. She'll feel that they talk about her behind her back, things like that.

 

[Jena]

ah so more of overall thoughts regarding it. sorry to hear that though that really sux. so not in the moment kinda thing like difficult child does? like the whole i hear them whispering about me and i have to convince her their not. even online in stores she'll do it at times i hear them talking about us. i've become so accustomed to her it never really hit me. make sense? and ofcourse pysch doctor doesn't pick up on anything he's simply horrible.

 

[HaoZi]

I think it all falls under distorted thought processes, but I could be wrong. There's a history of paranoia in my bio-family, too.

 

[Jena]

and this is the main reason she can't function in school. can't walk past rest of kids into reg. door. can't sit at lunch at table and eat. can't go class to class. it's all paranoia based in the moment stuff. not anxiety alone. that's different. anxiety is i'm nervous, i'm scared today. that sorta thing. not their pointing i hear them etc. right? yea i think i'm right. lol it's late

 

[HaoZi]

Could also be an indication of how she sees herself, too. Middle school is often a nasty time for a lot of kids (Hades years for me). Is there any self-esteem work you can help her do? When you have enough self-confidence to not give a rat's... what other people think of you, there's a peace in that. Even if you only start by pretending not to care.

 

[BusynMember]

Actually, that IS a symptom of schizophrenia, paranoid type. Is there any of that in the family tree on either side?

I would ask her outright if she hears things or sees things that others don't. She may or may not tell you the truth, but it's the only way to maybe find out for sure. There is also paranoid depression, which I had for a year when I was thirteen. Once I came out of it, that type of depression never returned, but I remember it. It was a thought disorder, I think. I thought the kids at school, who really DID make fun of me, were standing outside the house so I would whisper instead of talk loud and I thought they were calling me on the phone (which they may have been) and hanging up. But, all in all, it was paranoia. I've explained it to my psychiatrists years later out of curiousity and that's the answer I get. With me, it was obviously not schizophrenia because it went away and never returned and extremely bad depression can cause it. I don't know about anxiety. I had tons of that too, but to me it seemed that the depression caused it. I also had a feeling of unreality about the world (depersonalizatin, deralization). Has your daughter ever said that she feels as if s he is in a dream and does it terrify her?

I don't think anyone here really knows why she has paranoia. The really, really best thing you can do is to get her to a different psychiatrist who knows his stuff and bring it up to him as something you are concerned about. Do you feel she has a good grasp of reality? Does she ever talk about things that you know are not true but she totally seems to think they are true? Again, what does her family tree look like, especially on dad's side? These things, unfortunately, are inherited and even if she never sees him, she carries 50% of his DNA. Hugs and take care.

 

[Jena]

Haozi hi. yes i agree middle school is one of the hardest transitions and school pieces for a kid i read somewhere long ago. yet this started in pre k real early there were signs of it. the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) popped up real early too like 3 years old. checking dates in fridge that sort of stuff, dirty glasses, can't let food on plates touch. than came the not wanting to go to school due to kids talking about her. that i've grappled with for years. we've had her in anxiety classes and social classes for almost 2 years at the elementary school that also had a piece in self esteem. the guidance counselor there tried multiple times to tell her the kids aren't whispering at you. yet nothing we say worked.

Midwest mom - hi. i wish my ex would tell me he's very protective over his family tree. he i think feels that i'll blame him. which i never would outwardly. imean there are nights i get upset saying oh my god yet at the end of the day i'd never yell at him it's not his fault it's genetics. he has alot of junk there yet wont go there with me. i know his family tree to look like this....

his dad was addicted to crack years ago unbeknownst to us originally. has extreme paranoia and anxiety is also medicated why I don't know no one will tell me. he's very odd to be around, makes you uncomfortable yet you can see the core of him is decent. he loves difficult child yet spends minimal time around her because ex h and i feel there's no reason for him to be in her life alot. he also used to beat his wife, ex h's mom years ago.

ex h's mom - difficult child's bio grandma on paternal side - extreme paranoia and anxiety i see it and feel it when with her she makes me nervous. a kind person yet very as i said all these things. story goes she had a nervous breakdown when ex h was very small. he found her in the living room rocking back and forth naked. horrifying i know. so what's her diagnosis i dont' know.

ex h's great parents both on mom's side ; her mom killed herself committed suicide. her husband which would be difficult child's paternal great grandpa committed suicide a year later himself.

i dont know the rest there's depression with several of ex h's cousin's yet he wont' give me anymore info. i asK nicely and he shuts me down.


the only time i've found difficult child to be unrealistic is when she says and now she's almost 12 when i'm famous someday it'll all be good. i'm so excited to have my concert with- and she'll name a kid pop star. she'll talk about it as if its going to happen not a joke or smiling just factual. i'll say to her well how are you going to get there? she'll say it doesnt' matter its' just happening. will you sit in the front row sort of thing? i get creeped when she does this.

than when we are out in public its' always shh be quiet, she has a hard time when i speak at a normal tone feels ppl are listening they'll hear me i'm embarrassing her. i have to keep my tone to a slight whisper regarding anything that difficult child dont' touch that please stop etc. any type of minimal redirection on my part or repremanding slightly if she's off the charts. in public in a store ppl are looking at us extremely self conscious yet to the point of like last night the girls who were sooo far away their pointing at me and talking about me. WHAT? they cant' even see you. I hear them. what do you hear? their whispering about me.

it hit me last night how odd it is. why'd it hit me all these years later i dont know. yet it did. in one of her schools and only one time a new school she was in years ago fora very short period of time and we took her out in 2nd grade because she just lost it there. she thought she saw a guy in the woods with a knife at lunchtime. they had to call in cops, dogs etc. she did it again second day. principal called me. it was bad. yet we all and pysch doctor contributed it to it's a new school her anxiety was super high and no one said go further with this.

same school she thought there was a guy in the hall wanting to hurt her. yet it was only the school cleaning guy. she hasnt done that in the new school about ppl hurting her or anything. yet she'll always be very very upset to share her personal info with any therapists or guidance counselor's because they'll tell rest of kids it's not confidential hippa doesn't exist and on and on she goes.

 

[Jena]

oh and when we're in the truck together i can't talk to her unless the windows are closed if we are anywhere near the school. she says they can hear us talking. i have to be like a mile away from school. yet she does same if we're in town driving. anytime there's an important conversation happening on any level and she has the window open it gets closed.

also in therapy she used to sit on other side of room because she didnt want to be anywhere near the window she claimed even though we closed blinds for her ppll could see.

her dad is also extremely paranoid so its hard to talk to him about it. our first hospitalization i had to drive to the bank with-him to cash my check. i gave them my passport. his exact words were "why would you do that? it's so dangerous. they will pull the numbers off your passport and than use them to travel on and do something bad in another country". i was speechless.

 

[Andy]

Knowing you did have an intuder in the house not too long ago while you were home is also feeding into this and could be why it is heightened again. That incident would heighten the fear factor in everyone (I am sure you and the rest of the family are now more aware of the possibility when a door is left unlocked).

Thinking that people are pointing and laughing could also mean that she is starting to look at leaving her comfort zone and finding the reasons not to. She has been shut down for so long that even though these symptoms are showing and could most likely be schizophernia (I don't know specifics about that disorder) I would also look at it in the light that she is starting to open up a little and will need time to gain her confidence back - those first steps of being in public are very scary and it does seem like EVERYONE knows who you are and what you are doing and are watching for you to make a mistake. You will find a way to get her to realize that people are not pointing her out or laughing at her or listening to what you are talking about - it will take time.

Noticing what is going on is very good!!! You are doing a good job. Great job on your part also to force her to trust your knowledge that the den is a safe place. Just be aware that because of the recent intruder, her parania is heightened because it received a reality reason to be afraid.

 

[graceupongrace]

Andy's right -- you're doing a great job of observation, and that's really important. I think it will take a good psychiatrist to interpret what it all means. It's likely a combination of things, including psychiatric/psychological issues, reaction to the home intrusion, and typical teen stuff (e.g., when we are out in public its' always shh be quiet, she has a hard time when i speak at a normal tone feels ppl are listening they'll hear me i'm embarrassing her.) It can be really hard to sort out all these factors.

 

[Jena]

truly and i agree with-both of you. the anxiety def. heightened by intruder. yet this whole paranoia thing has been an ongoing piece for as long as i can remember. it just i always lapped it over into the anxiety factor. yet even when we get the anxiety down the paranoia is still extremely prevelant always. you know how you just get accustomed to your child's behaviors some of them? that's what i think i did with this one. so i don't see it as opening up on her part, because this is how she's always presented. yet what i do see is that she's admitting it more, and realizing oh my god i do do this at certain points. yet when she's convinced she can hear the whispering and unless sh'es the bionic child i know she can't, and she states their pointing at me and it's the in the moment stuff than nothing can reach her. her reality is def. distorted. reasOn i'm bringing this up is because to see if anyone has a child with that other disorder what it's like etc and to also get your guys take on it. clearly a good psychiatric doctor is needed to see if she meets the criteria for it. yet if she is that than maybe diff medications and a diff approach yet again handling her would help. it has to be hard to have your perception soo skewed and than not be able to determine reality from non reality and have your mom in your face trying nice to say umm it's in your head. that must make a person feel even more off kilter. so maybe the new therapist can teach me tricks on how to handle that also.

well we have cbt on tuesday for first time the place that's costing a fortune and doesn't take insurance. hoping that helps and i'm actively seeking a new pysch doctor yet again. also the team that i applied for should be in soon. i'm mtg with-my friend that works for them today to have lunch and get a clue as to where that's it also to talk about the school what she thinks best approach is and also this paranoia piece that i kinda stumbled over.

 

[HaoZi]

I was going to ask how much she sees your concern about how the local community treats you as an outsider, until I read the part about the windows and family history. I would definitely mention that to her psychiatrist.

 

[Steely]

Jena,

Have you had her tested, I am sorry, I can't remember? When Matt was tested at 6 they came back with the fact that he had very distorted thinking. For some reason ti made me mad at the time, thinking he is 6, he just has a vivid imagination. However as time went on, and in varying times in his life, he has gone through exactly what you are describing with your difficult child. Lots of distorted thinking. More on that in a bit.

Also - from my understanding, schizophrenia generally does not manifest itself until late teens early twenties, but don't quote me on that.

When I was 16 and in that hospital I told you about, they were convinced that I had schizophrenia because I heard voices. I walked around, no lie, until I was 35 convinced that someday I was gonna snap and become schizophrenic.

At 35 I started seeing the amazing counselor I told you about. It took me months for me to tell her that sometimes I hear voices, because I was sure she was going to confirm that I was going to go crazy. Instead she said, well that can actually be a manifestation of intense stress and depression. I swear I felt like I had a 10 ton weight lifted off of me. Still, when I get really, really stressed I will hear voices - and it is very scary. But once I tell myself where it is coming from, and I calm down, I am fine. I am never paranoid however, I just hear things that are not there, voices, music, etc.

My sister, who as you know died, was very paranoid. Again, not schizophrenic, but she had so much anxiety and she was so ramped up with it, that she could not even walk into a store sometimes. Before she died, they thought she was actually having some sort of psychotic break, because she was so intensely paranoid and had left reality. However before that, she just was my sister that thought in a paranoid way. I truly never thought twice about it, because she was a successful director of a pre-school, had a house, etc. She was still in reality - until the end when something truly did snap with her, and she had a psychotic break. I still doubt anyone would have diagnosed her with schizophrenia.

So with Matt, you know, he has every issue known to a mentally ill child. His family tree is rampant with illness, and poor guy, I think he got the whole tree in one mind. However I am pretty sure he is not schizophrenic. He just has really, really distorted thinking. For instance, his neighbor gave him a lamb bone for the dogs, and he refused to give it to the dogs because he believed it was poisoned. Another example, in fact just 3 days ago, he was just super depressed and was sure that this guy at McDonalds was trying to start a fight with him, all because of "a look" that Matt perceived. Then at Wal-Mart, same thing, people are staring at us. And God forbid I leave his front door open a second when I come in to visit, or try and open his blinds - MOM someone will see me!!! Um, OK - they see you all the time in public Matt - yea - but they could see my house that is different.

I really could go on and on with this subject - but my gut tells me 2 things at least with Matt (and probably your difficult child). If Matt is sensory overloaded, like that day he was really depressed and we went to Wal-Mart he absolutely cannot handle it. He was freaking out because there were too many people around him, staring, talking, whatever. This is why school was hard for him, because by noon he could not take one more ounce of stimulus and he would explode. The other thing is the distorted thinking - I have not done much research on what exactly the brain is doing with distorted thinking - but my guess is that the synapse that says "people are talking" mis- fires and translates to "people are talking about me" instead of translating that people are just talking and I find it annoying and loud.

So all of that to say - schizophrenia is very rare - and there are many, many other things that mirror certain attributes of schizophrenia. I would try not to worry too much about this particular subject right now. I do wonder why she is not on a mood stabilizer? Has the Dr mentioned that?

Hugs and hang in there - try not to worry too much!