difficult child wants to Kill Us....

DaisyFace

Love me...Love me not
I agree that the stay won't solve the problem, BUT it can lead to getting written recommendations from a psychiatric hospital that she needs longer term care. That can go a long way in getting her into one and help paying for it.

K--

You have hit the nail on the head! One of the problems we are having is that the state cut the funding for long-term placements. So now, the referring facility must agree to foot a large portion of the bill...

And, because the psychiatric hospital has no intention of paying for the cost associated with an Residential Treatment Center (RTC)--they are no longer making referrals for long term care.

Department of Juvenile Justice may be our only option.
 

klmno

Active Member
Well that's the road my son is now taking. While I would avoid it if at all possible, it has not hurt him rehabilitation-wise. Of course, it has hurt his record and other factors like that. This is why I was recommending that you get your daughter in a state psychiatric hospital and try for Residential Treatment Center (RTC) that way. Prepare yourself- once Department of Juvenile Justice gets involved, they take over your life as well and when it's all court-ordered you can't get out of it even if it wipes you out in other ways. IOW, they aren't flexible with schedules, finances, etc, the way mental heaklth profs are. And, the mental health available thru them might ONLY be behavior oriented- which is fine if that's the big problem, but if it's an underlying MI, no matter what they tell you, it might not really focus on that- unless things are a lot different there than they are here.

Seriously- I would apply for a CHINS at this point if I was you.
 

DaisyFace

Love me...Love me not
Seriously- I would apply for a CHINS at this point if I was you.

K--

I cannot find any way to file for Child in Need of Services in my state. I see only "Child in Need of Protection"--which would be a case to remove the child from a parent's home in the event of child abuse or neglect.

The sheriff advised me that difficult child either needs to be placed in Residential Treatment Center (RTC) by our county mental health facility (which is not happening due to budget cuts)

or after Department of Juvenile Justice gets involved, difficult child will be placed somewhere by the court system.

But yes, as you say, if it gets to that, it will be completely out of our hands and there is no telling whether difficult child's mental health records will be given any weight at all when it comes time to determine appropriate placement for her.


--DaisyFace
 

klmno

Active Member
Here, a chins for services is applied for thru court services unit "intake"- you might try calling them, although they might call it something different in your state.

Now, as far as Residential Treatment Center (RTC)- in Department of Juvenile Justice "residential treatment facility" means incarceration. My son is in Department of Juvenile Justice and his facility is called "residential treatment" because he is not living in the community. Obviously, it isn't what I had in mind when a psychiatric Residential Treatment Center (RTC) was recommended but it didn't matter- that was kind of my point. If the child is involved with the courts for criminal activity and needs residential placement, they don't get a mental health facility- they get incarcerated. Yes, they have a therapist and a contracted psychiatrist who comes by periodically and a school, but it's a correctional facility. No other agency- mental health, dss, etc, would do anything to help get difficult child in a psychiatric Residential Treatment Center (RTC) after the courts are involved because the funding would come out of their budget and this way they can put it back on Department of Juvenile Justice's funding budget. Department of Juvenile Justice's funding only covers behavioral-oriented mental health treatment.

When they tell you that Department of Juvenile Justice will "determine appropriate palcement and review mental health requirements", they are not thinking what we are thinking. They review if the child is mentally retarded, criminally insane, a sex offender needing specialized treatment, a drug addict, etc, and place them accordingly. It is still incarceration in a correctional facility.

Sometimes if the child is involved with the courts only due to being in need of services (chins), then they get get mental health treatment without incarceration- ie, a real Residential Treatment Center (RTC), not incarceration. I strongly urge you to pursue this before taking any further steps because these steps now will determine the road ahead, possibly for a very long time. I can't even get a mental health case manager for my son- it's considered his provbation or parole officer- who knows NOTHING about mental health.
 
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DF, one idea would be to put all your fears and reasons for them into a letter and give a copy to each of the docs on the case. In your case, I'd probably include the copies of the threats themselves, but I wouldn't stop there. I'd include my own perceptions along with the reasons for them. They want to assume these are idle threats? They just might change their outlooks if you put them in that position of liability if something happens. Same goes for if you take difficult child to the ER. At one point while my difficult child was hospitalized, I was advised to do exactly such a letter. In that case I was advised to "wallpaper the hospital" with copies of those letters if I had to. It worked--short of the wallpaper, by the way:)
 

DaisyFace

Love me...Love me not
Here, a chins for services is applied for thru court services unit "intake"- you might try calling them, although they might call it something different in your state.

OK--

I did some research on about court-ordered mental health services online and it seems that the procedure here is as follows:

Take the child to the county mental health facility.

If the county mental health facility indicates that the child requires long term in-patient treatment and the child refuses to cooperate with the parents attempts to bring the child in for services...

the parents may then petition the court and the court can order the child picked up by law enforcement officers and physically escorted to the recommended treatment facility where the child's admittance will be adjudicated buy the court.

So, it looks like she would have to get referred to an Residential Treatment Center (RTC) first...
 

DaisyFace

Love me...Love me not
DF, one idea would be to put all your fears and reasons for them into a letter and give a copy to each of the docs on the case. In your case, I'd probably include the copies of the threats themselves, but I wouldn't stop there. I'd include my own perceptions along with the reasons for them. They want to assume these are idle threats? They just might change their outlooks if you put them in that position of liability if something happens. Same goes for if you take difficult child to the ER. At one point while my difficult child was hospitalized, I was advised to do exactly such a letter. In that case I was advised to "wallpaper the hospital" with copies of those letters if I had to. It worked--short of the wallpaper, by the way:)

That is a great idea! Thank you.
 

klmno

Active Member
DF- the procedure you described thru your local mental health agency is the process for a TDO- that is NOT leading to a Residential Treatment Center (RTC) but an acute stay at a psychiatric hospital. Not necessarily the wrong move- I have done it and I previously lsited this as a viable option right now. But don't get that confused with a chins- if you are interested in that, try PM'ing Star and asking her what it is called there and how to go about getting one. You can do this without or without a stay in the psychiatric hospital.

If you go the TDO route, which is a great idea, ask for them to get her into the state psychiatric hospital. That way, it might indirectly lead to a Residential Treatment Center (RTC) stay. Oh- for a TDO here you either have to take the difficult child into the crisis center or call cops- 911- and tell them you need her evaluation'd for a tdo and they call mental health and get it done. They can get it done over the phone but you cannot. Either the cops or mental health has to physically see and talk to the kid. Now, if you call 911, it can lead to arrest or another report and not a tdo. So to improve the odds, make sure the first thing you say when the 911 operator answers is "My 14yo child has a MI and is currently a danger to self and others- I need her evaluation'd for a tdo right away".

If by chance you do think that a good, enforced, behavior contract alone will get her turned around, you could pursue the arrest avenue alone and that will sure get it.
 
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Marguerite

Active Member
DF, I know I've indicated in oter posts about your daughter that I believe at times she's possibly just trying to get a rise out of you.

Not this time. Not that some level of "How can I really rile my parents and make them panic" isn't still there somewhere in other actions of hers, but not in this.

Yes, kids will sometimes say, "I want to kill my parents." And yes, sometimes it's just an expression of anger, "my mother embarrassed me, I am so angry with her I could kill her." and some kids take it further with, "I wonder how I could do it? Let's just plan it out, just for the mental exercise of it. Of course I don't mean it, I'm just trying to find ways to let off steam."

But even if this is what you have found, she is sufficiently out of touch with reality from time to time to one day read over her plans (while feeling especially angry) and decide to follow through.

Every kid is different. easy child 2/difficult child 2 was a real worry at times (still is, often) but if I had found this sort of stuff in her room, I wouldn't have been concerned for my safety. Concerned for hers, yes.

But with your daughter and the things you've told us - you are right to be worried, in my opinion.

I do feel that she IS letting off steam with this planning, but that doesn't mean she's not serious about it. Just that it is a good thing she has written it down because there IS a safety valve effect. It has probably bought you time.

What I'm trying to say - don't panic. Instead of getting unproductively anxious about it, get busy and get control back.

Which sounds like what you're doing.

An analogy - you're in your kitchen and see a snake slither across the floor. You didn't see what kind. You could panic, scream and run outdoors. Or you could climb on a chair, clamber over the bench to the telephone and call the local zoo for the name of the nearest emergency snake handler.

Don't panic, but get safe and ensure the safety of others. No need for overkill, but definitely need for appropriate action.

I would have suggested calling the poice about what to do in tis situaiton, but you've already done this. I think their help is gonig to be more accurate and valid than anything the hospital could put in place. The hospital will be a short break and perhaps a glitch in any real plans she might have, not much else. It sounds to me like they're overstretched and know they won't do anything more than give you a couple of days' respite, without doing a darn thing to really help your daughter long-term. You need something much more effective and long-term consistent.

I hope you can find it somewhere in your system.

At least the cops know about this now. So if anything does happen, it's on record and they are more likely to come to your aid fast. Here's hoping that if/when she next does something stupid, it's something impulsive and not considered or really nasty. Just enough to get over that last step.

Marg
 
should I be worried??

Well, I am.

--DaisyFace

One thought I ran across years ago in my reading about domestic violence is that one of the most accurate predictors of violence is the perception of danger by the potential victim. Please be careful, trust your instincts, and don't let down your guard.
 

Wiped Out

Well-Known Member
Staff member
DF,
Just adding in my prayers and support. I'm so sorry you are dealing with all of this. Gentle hugs.
 

susiestar

Roll With It
I am sorry I didn't see this earlier. I know almsot EXACTLY how scared you are, and the crisis mode you are operating in. Be careful - it WILL burn you up in every sense of the world.

You NEED to see YOUR doctor and speak to him/her about this. Let her know you are in a high state of stress and anxiety. medications are a choice you should think about. If you run in this mode for very long your body WILL have problems from it.

Getting YOUR doctor in the picture can help if it comes to court. You will have been concerned enough to seek help from your doctor. If it comes down to custody of your son (I will explain that in a minute) then you have ammo that you have tried to get help for everyone in the family including yourself (Moms are notorious for not getting help for themselves until long after everyone else is OK.).

When/If CPS gets involved it could go one of several ways. One of the first things they do is try to say you are not protecting your other child, so they want to take the other child and leave the dangerous one with you. One sw even told me that taking my other 2 kids would "free" me up to "tackle" Wiz' problems. I told her that in a house iwth 4 adult and 3 children there was always someone around to take the other kids, but it didn't have any impact on how dangerous Wiz was.

Others here have also been threatened with removal of other children.

Right now, high priority needs to be given to a written safety plan. What you and husband do if/when she attacks. What the kids are supposed to do. What locks, etc... do you have and will you put into place to remove as much danger as possible.

What the kids should do if she does hurt you. That is a hard one, but you need to work it out. If you leave it off the safety plan then CPS may say you don't think it is a real problem. been there done that. Used the tshirt to choke the social worker.

Take a walk through your home, evaluate what you could use to fight your daughter off. What she could use to hurt you. Be aware at all times.

Write that letter. Give copies of it to the pastor at your church if he has any pull with the police, if he knows the staff at the hospital from visits. He/She could be a great ally by telling people you have reason to fear and are not Chicken Little.

When you talk to people that you want to help you, cry. Don't hold it back. Don't go overboard or be obnoxious (much) but let them see how scared you are. Even the minimum wage newbie who decides who gets to talk to a person or a machine can be an ally.

When I finally realized that there actually WERE psychiatric hospitals for kids (Children's in Cincy told me flat out that they did not admit children with psychiatric problems. Later I learned it was a lie, but you had to get past the $8/hour person who answered the phones and set priorities for people and problems.) Wiz was so far gone that no one knew if he could recover. Ever. (One or two tdocs actually compared him to Hannibal Lector at different points. One to my face and one in a report. )

I called the Behavioral Health # on the insurance card. We were on medicaid at the time. I let the ENTIRE story, including my 7yo daughter having to wear an alarm on her neck every minute she was in the house and sleeping with me at night or she had even more panic attacks). That woman, bless her, asked why the police hadn't done anything. They didn't see a need, is all I knew.

That day she got with a supervisor and set up a LONG inpatient stay - we got approved for 20 days at first. This was 6 years ago at a time when they were not admitting ANYONE to the psychiatric hospital on medicaid in this state. She also approved 18 sessions for each of us to see a therapist. She had the therapist bill the family sessions in thank you's name because he was too young for therapy to do much.

Make sure you have a notebook of originals of her letters. Write down any verbal threats, potential weapons she stockpiles, etc.... If you have a yard that she spends any time in at all, spend some time in her fave places and look for hiding places.

Document, document, document.

Especially document how this is affecting your son. Include what you are doing to help him, from a longer snuggle at bedtime to medications and therapy.

Last of all, stay in close touch here. Not only do we care and worry, we also might come up with that one small thing that finally results in help.

Many hugs. I hate that your difficult child is so ill and you are all so stressed.
 

Steely

Active Member
Daisy, I am sorry I did not see this earlier as well.:(
I just want you to know you are in my thoughts and prayers - as is difficult child. I wish I had more wisdom to offer, like the others - but at this time - all my soul can think of is to offer support.
Hugs.
 

DammitJanet

Well-Known Member
One thing you may want to ask her therapist and psychiatrist about is wilderness camp. Mention one that is in Columbus or Bladen County NC that begins with an E and sounds like a national drug store chain. They should know which one you mean. I know for a fact that SC refers to that camp. One of Corys old psychiatrists used to work in SC and she told me that she used to send kids to it all the time.
 
Just a couple ideas regarding that safety plan.... I know it sounds crazy, but for about a year my younger daughter and I slept behind a deadbolt at night in my bedroom. I know people have different opinions regarding the "family bed" concept, but in my case it worked and didn't even seem that unnatural to my younger daughter since she had not fully made the transition to her own bed anyway. I never got rid of the king-sized bed after my divorce. Suddenly, I realized why. Also in the bed (we looked like a jigsaw puzzle, I know) were my two wonderful, doggies, 90 lbs. and 50 lbs.--friendly, fun, but far from stupid doggies. The especially perceptive "alpha" female had already made clear exactly what she thought about difficult child, when difficult child left her bedroom door ajar one evening before we were locked down for the night. My lovable b____ ran right in there, jumped in the middle of the bed, squatted, and let it all go. I laughed until I cried. This dog has ZERO accidents. When things like that happen, she's clearly sending a message.

I did not realize that by all four of us (me, child, and 2 dogs) sleeping together in that bed behind a deadbolt, I was conditioning them to be protective of that area and of the two of us. In time, difficult child could not even open the door to her own bedroom, certainly not move room to room, without the loveable "b" barking at my bedroom door as if there were an intruder. (Sorry, must be serious issue for the 90 lb. male to get involved. He lets the female take care of him while he eats and sleeps, sometimes throwing her a low "woof," as if to say "Honey, would you get the door?")

The time came though, when all was put to the test. I had no idea of the mechanisms I had in place. difficult child--for once--innocently opened that door to get something after we were there and settled with lights off, just not yet locked. I knew she was coming in, but nobody told the dogs. BOTH dogs (140 lb. of dog) literally jumped her from the bed--barking, growling and cornering her by the door--lightly holding her arm in their teeth--while she screamed for the light switch. I would never get over it if my dogs hurt anybody, but to SCARE somebody they perceived as an intruder? I loved it--and from that point forward felt much more secure. I think that type of behavior can specifically be trained into them, although in my case it came around on its own.

As for other times during the day, for a safety plan, I still used the deadbolts. My younger child knew to go to one of the bedrooms and deadbolt herself in if she were to become afraid at any point. I had the keys, usually on my body. Also a spare set hidden in an easily accessible place.

Home security systems: Do you have one? I learned that I could get a "panic button" programmed into mine which would work just like the panic button on the keypad. Most of the times I got into a bind, I could tell the tension was building before we actually were in crisis mode, and I went to my room to get the button to have around my neck under my shirt. It looks just like a electronic key to open a car door; nobody would ever guess what it really was. It could easily be kept on a keychain, but I liked the necklace. Also, I'm not sure exactly how sensitive it is and was always ultra careful to allow nothing to touch that button. To this day, difficult child never knew that button existed. Having it gave me huge peace of mind, although I never had to use it. Typically, our problems would happen in areas of the house nowhere close to either of the system's control panel panic buttons.

If you have a security system....do you know what it does for each of the panic buttons? I asked. If I had pressed the police button, I would have had sirens blaring, etc., which would have further escalated everything. I just told them I wanted them to figure out how to make that a silent alarm, because it's well-documented that it is an extremely dangerous time between the police call and the police arriving. I can't believe that the standard is to assume instead of ask the customer's preferences on that.

I've taught my daughter about the panic buttons--as well as to call 911 in an emergency. By the way, this has become more complicated in recent years. Children specifically have to be trained how to call 911 from the various makes and models of all our cell phones, or they won't have a clue. It used to be so easy. We take it for granted. I did. I actually gave as a homework assignment for my students one night to go home and ask parents to show them how to call 911 from each of the different cell phones in the house. One session is not enough, either. Technology has really complicated this sequence for our children.

Other things I did...when I could tell an exchange was escalating, I very deliberately but discreetly went around and unlocked all the doors of my house. I wanted officers to be able to get in quickly without breaking down doors. I also was able to communicate this to our officers (perks of small town living), and we had a couple incidents here where seconds counted, and I am so very thankful that they knew I wanted them to GET IN and GET IN FAST.

I hope something in all this might be useful to somebody else.
 
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One thing you may want to ask her therapist and psychiatrist about is wilderness camp. Mention one that is in Columbus or Bladen County NC that begins with an E and sounds like a national drug store chain. They should know which one you mean. I know for a fact that SC refers to that camp. One of Corys old psychiatrists used to work in SC and she told me that she used to send kids to it all the time.

When I researched this, what I found was that these camps tend only to be effective if the behaviors are relatively new, before they are so deeply set. I don't know how much truth to that. For so much I have to just say, "Dunno, but I remember reading that somewhere...." I'd at least ask.
 

klmno

Active Member
I thought it might depend on the difficult child- I researched it but couldn't pursue it because my son was on probation. I would have sent him in 1 second if it had been an option. But his personality and interests and issues led me to think it would be an effective approach for him.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
The safety plan idea sounds very good, especially if you have to now wait for something to happen.

I loved the sound of those dogs! My sister had a female German Shepherd who was protective of her like this. Her husband was often away and there were a few "friendly neighbours" of the male hopeful variety who came a'calling, wanting to soothe the tensions of a grass widow... my sister called the dog to her and the dog quickly picked up the vibe, loud and clear and passed the message on to the bloke.

She told me it happened a few times with different males over the couple of years or so she lived in that area. The dog was wonderful with us, I never had a problem and neither did her babies when they were born. But that dog knew to keep my sister safe.

Here's hoping that this threat to kill you is simply a facet of the problems at the moment, not part of a long-term (as in years ahead) planning. She's not a well girl at the moment, desperately needs help and it shouldn't be so difficult for you to have this taken seriously.

It's just not fair. To her or to you.

Marg
 

TerryJ2

Well-Known Member
DaisyFace, I am so sorry sorry you are going through this.
You have your own therapist, right? Maybe you can get some ideas there, too.
Wish I had something to offer.
EB, wow, great dogs, LOL! Did it change difficult child's behavior after that?
 
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