Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by Hound dog, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Okay, it's bad enough that we as parents of difficult child's have to endure their gfgness. But I can pretty much deal with that as it's my own kid. I swear, though, that I've about had my fill of N's b/f.

    Everytime I start thinking he's immature but otherwise ok, he just has to blow it out of the water.

    Tonight N has him bring her home early so she can help me plant the tulip and daphodil plants I bought. She'd been itching to do this for days but the rain held it off. Both kids seemed in pretty good moods. Baby is always in a good mood. The weeding the flower beds and planting goes off without a hitch. We go inside.

    N comes out of the bedroom, baby on one hip, diaper bag on the other. It's not uncommon for them to shift from one set of parents house to the other. So I didn't give it a thought. N goes out and puts the baby into the carseat in b/f's car. Several minutes pass and b/f doesn't come out of her room. N comes back inside and asks him if he's coming.

    I didn't hear what he said to her, but she says I know that's where we're going, are you coming? She doesn't sound the least bit miffed. Rolls her eyes and grins at me as she makes her way back outside to check on the baby in the car. B/f stays in the room. (room is right off the livingroom) I still don't pay much attention assuming he's on her computer or something. N waits in the car for a long time.

    Finally I can hear the baby crying in the car when she comes in again to ask b/f if he's coming. He says something to her, she says I know that's where we're going. The baby is crying, come on let's go. He says something else. N asks if he's mad. He says she's mad or something to that effect because she says that she's not upset and asks what his problem is? However she is growing impatient as the baby is really beginning to scream.

    This is where it falls apart. They start bantering. The baby is screaming. (I'm sure she didn't like being left in the car and she was tired) After a few minutes with N's ok, I go fetch the baby back inside and watch her. I saw no reason for her to stay in the car while her parents hashed whatever it was out. N went into the bedroom with b/f and closed the door.

    And as usual, it gets dramatic. After just a short while door comes open. I notice N's computer chair is right in front of it. B/f starts whining that N supposedly blocked the door, tossed water or lemonaide on him (he was awfully dry), and tackled him when he tried to leave the room. I've decided these 2 kids have to be the quietest physical fighters I've ever been around. husband were sitting right in the livingroom and didn't hear hardly a thing. Certainly nothing that indicated anything physical was going on or else I'd been in there in a flash.

    B/f proceeds to the front porch where he has to loudly declare again about N tackling him, being physical, needing "help", among other things. N told him all she did was block the door so he'd tell her what she'd done to make him mad all of a sudden. He keeps harping about how she needs more "help" than he can give her. How he can't "help" her anymore. (for those who remember, here we go again) How if she'd just take her medications everything would be just hunky dory. N told him she never forgets her medications. Nor does she. I know for a fact. So he switches it to well then they aren't working, and she needs more. She needs to see a therapist. And she's standing there bawling trying to get him to tell her what she did to make him mad. Then he has the nerve to tell her she needs to be admitted again!

    *Insert POed parent here*

    1. Is it just me but does b/f seem like an awfully big WUSS to anyone???? I'm not justifying if N is becoming physical. But come on. B/f stands over 6 feet and weighs almost 200 lbs. N is 4 feet 10 and finally made it to 115. Unless she has some sort of weapon in her hand, I'm not going to be overly concerned with her physically hurting b/f. I'm sure if he really felt threatened he could have managed to move her aside and walk out the door, He knew husband and I were on the other side and could have asked us to help.

    2. Doesn't it seem a wee bit presumptious of this 20 yr old kid to think it his place to "help" my daughter who is already under the able care of a more than qualified psychiatrist???

    3. N has been stable for months. This is the first slightest *hint* of this type of behavior between them. And I didn't see it, nor hear any indication that is what really happened. Oops, excuse me. N did say she bit him on the arm because he had grabbed a hold of her. Still on the porch N, other than the crying, was fairly composed. I saw none of the older behavior.

    B/f went on to insinuate that N has been "having a problem all along" that she "just can't learn to control herself". And started in on the hospital and such yet again. Then hinted something about the baby, but N shot him down fast. (if she hadn't I would have)

    N again asked him what his problem was, that she had just wanted to go to his house. Then he pounces on something about her Algebra II class and how he had tried to help her and she had flunked anyway cuz she just wouldn't listen to him and do it like he said to. She started crying again and tried to explain she didn't understand it. He tells her she should have understood it cuz he showed her how to do it. She should have read the instructions. How did she expect to make it in college. She shot back that she's sorry she's dyslexic and has a problem with that sort of thing. He doesn't believe her. She asks for back up from me and I explain it to him. He doesn't look happy. He accuses her of asking him to help her so he would do her work and she'd get a good grade. She let him know that she got F's on the stuff he showed her how to do.
    Then he starts in on her about graduation and college. I'm sitting in the livingroom, front porch door is open, and I'm thinking who do you think you are?? Her parent? He keeps telling her that if she doesn't get control over herself, she's going to be nothing and go nowhere.

    The arguement seemed to stop as fast as it started. Bare in mind the above was heard through baby babble. It was a good thing it stopped there because I'd had my fill of his Holier Than Thou attitude and his condesending manner. If it had continued it probably would've gotten alot uglier because I'd have ripped him a new one.

    B/f leaves and N is crying on the porch steps. (believe me, if N was unstable the boy wouldn't have made it off the porch) I go out and sit with her. She still hasn't a clue why they were fighting or why he was mad at her.

    I wonder if I should be glad I wasn't the only one who missed the point of all of that. Hmmmmm.

    I don't get it. He started the fight. Yet kept telling N it was all her fault, she needed to go back to the hospital, the medication thing, and on and on. They were in the bedroom with the door closed not even 10 mins tops. The front porch dramatics didn't last more than 15 mins.

    Every single time I'm around when they're fighting he is telling her exactly the same thing almost word for word. And it is always with the same Holier Than Thou and condensending tone of voice. And of course, it is always her fault. She is always the one who needs to change. And from what N has told me, it's the same even when I'm not around to hear it.

    This has become a pattern. One that doesn't sit well with me.

    I'm a parent that when my kid is in the wrong I feel no need to come to their defense. But I swear, when he starts this I just want to rip him apart verbally til I have him groveling at my feet just so I can ask him how it feels. (isn't that awful?) N does have a temper, but mine makes hers look like a picnic.

    I'm beginning to wonder if he is using her disorders as a means of degredation and control. All he has to do is hint that he doesn't want to be with her anymore and she crumbles. She'll admit fault when there is nothing to admit.

    I do try to stay out of the drama except to supervise to make sure the physical stays out of it. But if they keep putting it in my face I don't know how long I'll be able to manage it. I did NOT like the pain I watched cross N's face when he told her she needed to be back in the hospital.

    We do talk. And I do try to be fair and point out things I see that need worked on with both of them. (last thing I want is her to start defending him) Lord, she'll be 18 in June.

    Sorry this turned out so darn long. If you made it this far thanks for reading. I just needed to vent and sort out my thoughts.
  2. mom_in_training

    mom_in_training New Member

    Geeze.... "Its always the guilty that blame the innocent" It seems that some people somehow find it gratifying to always blame another when it is in fact something that they choose to not take any responsibility for. Seems that he has a hard time taking any responsibility for his actions. Why would N stay with a guy like this? He does seem to be very immature and for him to always throw the medication thing and hospitalization thing in her face is uncalled for. If he thinks hes trying to save her he has another thing coming. Only she has that power. The only way he can accomplish anything within their relationship is to be the supportive partner that he needs to be. I would have had a hard time not stepping in and telling him to MAN-UP and stop using her problems of the past as an excuse for his behavior.
  3. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    I think N stays with him because she has a very low self image. But I also think she really does love the guy. First Love I'd say.

    It just really irks me that he keeps repeating the same thing during every fight, like he has the frimping lines rehersed. And I'll catch him looking out of the corner of his eye to see if I'm paying attention when he does it. I usually am paying more attention to their fight than it appears as I'm monitoring in case it esculates out of control.

    Now easy child and her husband have argued around me plenty of times. Never has bothered me a bit. I just go about my own business. So I think it's something I'm picking up on that is causing me to shift into High Alert mode when N and b/f are at it. It has a feel of manipulation to it that I just don't like.

    Honestly, I don't really see these two making it as a couple. I'm surprised it has lasted this long. Baby isn't really an excuse as I don't think even b/f is worried N would ever keep him from seeing Aubrey.

    If husband had ever tried that sort of fighting tactic with me he'd been out the door so fast he wouldn't have had time to blink.
  4. flutterbee

    flutterbee Guest

    I think your intuition is right on. This sounds so so familiar to me...I instantly thought of my first husband.

    The better and more stable N becomes, the less she "needs" boyfriend, the less control boyfriend has over her. That is threatening to boyfriend and he needs to "beat her down" again in order to regain that control. He, in a sense, doesn't want her to get better....and/or better than him.

    Sadly, making N see that is going to be another story entirely. If you try to talk to her about it, she will probably jump right to his defense...especially now that there is a child involved. I would contact a local domestic violence support group for resources/information. I'm not saying boyfriend is violent, but that kind of manipulation goes hand in hand with violence so those kind of groups will be trained in dealing with these issues. They may have some really good suggestions for you in how to broach your concerns with N.

    N has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), correct? That makes her easy prey for this kind of behavior from boyfriend....the whole rejection thing. I really feel for you. And for N. I hope she sees boyfriend for what he really is. And sooner than later.
  5. Loris

    Loris New Member

    I totally agree with Heather. If she stays strong, she must be beat down. That is the way he can keep control. But if you try to point that out, she will run to him faster. Maybe if you can get pamplets or brochures or books on the subject and keep them lying around she may read a little. One can hope anyway. I'm sorry you're both being subjected to that.
  6. kris

    kris New Member

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daisylover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    I'm beginning to wonder if he is using her disorders as a means of degradation and control. All he has to do is hint that he doesn't want to be with her anymore and she crumbles. She'll admit fault when there is nothing to admit </div></div>

    <span style='font-size: 14pt'> <span style='font-family: Georgia'> <span style="color: #663366"> lisa, this is exactly what i was thinking as i read your post....and not for the first time actually.

    i do think he is using her illness against her. honestly, i consider that abusive. emotional abuse. they seem to be rather toxic for each other.

    i don't know how/if you can/should approach N about this....but i think i'd be forced to since this has happened repeatedly. either he needs to get a handle on this or they need to split. at least if it was my daughter involved that's what i'd be counselling her to do.

    i have to say you have amazing control. i would have had a very difficult time staying out of that whole scene. would have had to chew my tongue bloody!

    </span> </span> </span>
  7. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Lisa...I think you have two borderlines on your hands. Or he is beating her down with her borderline and using it against her. It sounds very very familiar to me with what goes on here.

    While you dont have the infidelity issues to deal with you do have the manipulation issues. Not easy. I wish you luck.
  8. KFld

    KFld New Member

    I agree about him feeling threatened when she is doing well. Wingnut always did , or still does for all I know, that to my difficult child. Anytime he was doing good, she had to turn a situation around to make it look like he wasn't. I think it's fear that if the other person is doing too good, maybe they will become strong enough to get out of the bad relationship. Not much you can do about it but before there to support your daughter.
  9. SunnyFlorida

    SunnyFlorida Active Member

    Gee...I read it sort of differently. :smile:

    I read it as maybe boyfriend is moving in a different direction and doesn't know how to move on. Maybe boyfriend feels tied down and is getting impatient. Maybe boyfriend wants to do something else, like date other people, move on from the relationship, getting tired of being a father and boyfriend but not wanting to admit it or do anything about it. It sounded like boyfriend is frustrated that he tried to teach something (thought he did a good job) and then the results didn't pan out the way he thought they would. It sounded like Young People in an adult situation and over their heads.

    Is there any counseling available for both of them?
  10. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    This all sounds very familiar to me too! He is using verbal abuse and manipulation to keep her under control and it's working. I spent twenty years married to someone exactly like this! I spent all that time trying desperately to figure out what it was that <u>I</u> was doing wrong - it must be <u>my</u> fault - he said it was! If it wasn't for ME, everything would be perfect at our house! None of it made any sense to me because, try as I might, I couldn't figure out what I was doing that was so awful that I deserved that kind of treatment. And by that time, my self-esteem was completely bottomed out so I was more than willing to take the blame, even if I didn't know what I had done wrong! This kind of treatment keeps you so off-balance and so confused, you don't know which way is "up" anymore. And it is a totally miserable way to have to live!

    Verbal abuse is a form of domestic violence. In your daughters case, he is using her problems as the weapon against her. If it wasn't that, he'd find something else. They ALL find something. They will lie and manipulate and twist things around so that it is all HER fault! Like all forms of domestic violence, they use it to maintain the power and control in the relationship. And it certainly has worked here! She had done nothing wrong but he had her in tears, ready to take the blame, and begging him to tell her what she had done! He is very firmly planted in the "drivers seat" and intends to stay there!

    All forms of domestic violence follow the same clear-cut patterns, whether it be verbal abuse, emotional abuse or physical. The tactics they use are exactly the same! They will do whatever it takes to maintain the power and control in the relationship. And sadly, it's not IF it escalates, it's WHEN it escalates, and it will! You can count on it! This girl desperately needs counseling from someone in a womens domestic violence group. Having this all explained for you is a real eye-opening experience! Suddenly everything makes sense to you again and you can see right through what they are doing. Talking to these people was the single most empowering experience I've ever had. A lot of women are very resistant to make this step - they still think that if they choose their words carefully enough, if they walk on enough eggshells, and if they ever finally figure out what they are doing wrong, maybe it won't be so bad. I strongly urge you to contact a domestic violence group in your area. They will be happy to meet with her or talk to her on the phone - all in strictest confidence. If she won't or is afraid to call, then you can do it! They will give you information to help you help her, and can send some very eye-opening and informative literature that could make a big difference. She needs to put a stop to this NOW before it gets worse!
  11. mom_in_training

    mom_in_training New Member

    I also agree with what the others say about him being controlling. My sis just recently started up counceling because of it.(Thank god) The guy she was with really messed her up mentally with the constant mental abuse. He did all of what others had mentioned above. I don't even know who she is anymore, She lives in denial and lives a lie trying to make everyone think that she is ok and will defend his reasons for mentally abusing her. And she to this day will question getting back with this moron. My sis recognises it so that is a good thing and spoke to her councelor wanting to know why she can't let go and her councelors answer was that my sis is addicted to him. My response to my sis was ok, Its an addiction you don't want anymore so rid of it. I know its easier said then done and I am really hoping that counceling will help her move on in her life and just maybe my real sister will come back. My sis is in her 40s.

    "They will lie and manipulate and twist things around so that it is all HER fault!"

    He did all of that and then some. N is to young for this abuse and can do better with someone that loves her for who she is along with being the supportive partner that she thinks she needs. Shes tooooo young for this abuse already.
  12. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    Wow, I so agree with Donna and the others. I am seeing this with my dtr and her boyfriend. He dumps her and comes back--when does he come back--when he sees that she maybe doesn't need him. When he has control over her again he isn't nice to her and belittles everything she says and does. He twists everything. I asked her just last night how he justifies his actions (such as leaving her to pay rent) and she said he tells her it is her fault. She says nothing she can do pleases him, doesn't matter how hard she tries. I wish he would just get out of her life for good. Whenever she seems to be picking herself back up he comes along to knock her down again. Frustrating!
  13. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    Jane, she's right! Nothing she does will EVER please him, it will NEVER be "good enough", no matter how hard she tries! That's the whole idea. The harder she tries to achieve "perfection" in one thing, he'll come up with something else! Keep her jumping for that unattainable "carrot", and belittle her and make her feel like a failure when she can't reach it! She will NEVER EVER win his approval, because he enjoys seeing her scrabble for it so much! They keep them beaten down, blaming themselves, doubting themselves, feeling unworthy and ashamed ... because if she ever got her self-esteem and self-respect back, if she could clearly see things the way they really are, she'd see him for the total loser he is and, as Dr. Phil says, "Kick his b*typical teen to the curb"!

    I have a young niece who is in this same stage now. This is a gorgeous girl, very bright, well brought up. Hooked up with a boyfriend who is just below pond slime on the evolutionary scale! Only in her case, after leaving him and going back a dozen times, she actually married the fool and now she has a small baby! He's an absolute jerk! Works only if and when he feels like it, spends all his free time partying like a teenager, leaves her and the baby at home for days at a time with no phone, no car, and very little food in the house. And she is still constantly trying to please him, caters to his every whim, while he (dispicable toad that he is!) belittles her and constantly runs her down! He demands perfection from her while he, himself, is totally irresponsible, cruel, abusive, selfish, and a poor excuse for a husband and father! Somehow this makes sense to both of them! She has taken the baby countless times and gone back home to her parents house, but she always goes back! She's back with her parents again now, and we're all hoping that her concern for the baby will keep her there, and that she will finally see him for what he is! Maybe this will be the time that she's finally gotten fed up and ditches him! But I wouldn't bet on it!
  14. jbrain

    jbrain Member

    Hi Donna,
    oh, I feel bad for the niece! Well, this has been a good thread for me, giving me some more insight into my own dtr. She has been pregnant 3 times by her boyfriend but luckilly miscarried each time.

    In the late summer after bumming around New England, she came home and he ended up on Long Island. Well, she started seeing friends, seeing other guys, etc. We were pressuring her to get a job or get out and she told boyfriend she couldn't stay with us any longer. He tried to get her to go out to Long Island and sell some stupid product door-to-door, which is what he was doing. She didn't want to go so he came rushing back to Ithaca and despite knowing she had just spent the last 2 days with another guy he took her off with him. I knew she would go with him and at that point I just wanted her out so I guess I "threw her out." But she had been so full of bravado the night before, saying how she wasn't going to let him talk her into anything, etc.

    Right now she is living in their apt. and he is camping out not too far from where she lives. She says she wants nothing to do with him and they aren't together but she went to see him at his campsite last night to get some stuff she said he took from her.

    She can't afford the apt. and though he is on the lease he won't pay rent--he couldn't care less that he has gotten her into a terrible financial bind. We wouldn't mind helping her pay the rent til the lease is up (November) and she can get a cheaper, smaller place. Our problem is that we don't want to be helping him and we can't trust her to tell the truth (i.e., has he moved back in, if so he needs to pay rent). We are really struggling with what to do. She is trying to find a smaller place now but not sure if the landlord can rerent her place and if not she will owe for 2 places! I told my husband that I think if we are going to help her we are going to have to know that we may be helping to support him and we are just going to have to live with that. Otherwise we shouldn't help her--tell her she made this mess we can't help her get out due to our issues with her not telling the truth. I don't want to be eaten up alive with this, if we are going to help her I want to be able to not think about her and worry about if she is using us or not--just let it go.

    Okay, this was supposed to be a quick reply and I also have now hijacked someone else's post--sorry, I will start a new one if needed!

    Thanks so much,
  15. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Well, I dunno if b/f is borderline or not. Sometimes I wonder as some of his behaviors can mimick N's. But he definately has control issues. I've often wondered if he wants out of the relationship. I have my own reasons for not really believing he cares about N even half as much as she does him.

    Personally I wish he'd just go up and live on campus at the 4 yr college he's starting in the fall and forget about N altogether. But that would make our lives easier, so I doubt it would happen. I'm looking for the situation to esculate then. N will be caring for Aubrey and attending some awfully tough classes at the college, then trying to keep up with homework and studying. B/f will be working fulltime at night, going to class in Dayton during the day, and who knows when he'll do his work or go to sleep. He had promised N to watch the baby while she goes to class. I don't see how at the moment.

    N and I will continue having talks. And I think if they argue here and I think it's gone out of bounds I will be stepping in to tell b/f so. I'm also considering pushing him to come to at least one of N's psychiatrist appoints. He'll probably just come up with excuses, but it's worth a try. As for the couseling, I dunno if there is a therapist in the area worth the trouble. I'd asked about it last time and N's psychiatrist said she really didn't think the ones in town were very good.

    In the end the decision will be up to her. She has been standing up to b/f more and more these past months and really using her verbal skills. She is able to see fault with him now. I'm afraid if I push too hard and she defends him she'll lose that ability. Plus if I push too hard N may start to see me as the "bad guy" instead. If that happens I won't be any good to her anymore.
  16. DammitJanet

    DammitJanet Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Lisa...read the stuff on borderlines and relationships again. Get N to read it again. Maybe visit the websites and just read some of the posts. Sounds so darn familiar to what I read on there every time I visit them.
  17. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful


    That's a good idea!