Divorce in 2013. Does an intact family help the children?

LittleDudesMom

Well-Known Member
I haven't read the other replies because I'm so tight on time in the am, but I would like to put my 2 cents in.

From personal experience as well as observation, I believe a two-parent stable home is the ideal. Having said that, I believe that a home filled with discourse, anger, and disrespect between the adults is worse than the effects of a divorce handled with maturity. I believe that children are negatively affected by yelling and screaming parents. I believe children learn what a partner is by the examples that are set for them.

I know that bonehead and I split before we got to the bad stage. We didn't yell or treat each other with disrespect in front of our children - ever. We saved our disdain for when the kids were not there. There were some tough years when we first separated, but I always announced with excitement, "Dad's here!" for the kids. I didn't speak ill of him to the kids. I believe our children adjusted well to the change in their lives because we worked (well mostly me) to make sure that there was little other impact in their lives -- same school, same house, same beds, same friends, etc. Their dad came over 5 or 6 times a week at the beginning. They actually saw him more after he moved out then when he lived here! Rather than work, work, work, he would take time to come and see the children and spend time with them.

So, while I do believe that an intact family is the ideal, I feel that a poor quality intact family can do much damage.

Sharon
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
To be a devil's advocate again...if people divorce, there is no guarantee it will be better for the child. There are custody fights, nastiness often happening in one home or the other against the other parent and the child feels torn. The child is then spending this weekend with XXX, whether or not he/she wants to, and having to be uprooted the next weekend, even if something great is going on at his preferred place. His parents can marry again and be miserable...for 2nd marriages the divorce rate is 66%. For third marriages it is even higher. The chances of divorce giving a child a better life are not an odds on favorite, under these conditions.

My parents did not get along, but if my parents would have divorced, there would have been an ongoing battle throughout my childhood over money as my dad is very cheap and my mother did not have a good job. We probably would have had to move several times to worse and worse apartments and I, as a difficult child, had enough trouble adjusting to change and making friends...constant moving would have been horrendous. My dad would have taken off and let her do everything and she was no peach. They divorced after I grew up. They acted like two teenagers. I'm glad they waited until I was gone before that happened. Both went from adults to giggly love-sick kids. I didn't like the fighting, but the fallout of a divorce would have been even worse. At least to me it seems like it. I did have one home, one school, enough money and my parents weren't dating and bringing home boyfriends and girlfriends.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
MWM, I can appreciate where you're coming from. People who are nasty to each other in marriage are going to be nasty to each other in divorce.

For example, everyone who knows my mom says that she stays with my dad (63 years now) because "that's just the way that they did it then". Baloney! Her mother was married 3 times, and mom had an out of wedlock much older sister who was raised as a cousin by her older aunt. My father picks on her as mercilessly as he picked on us. We had clothes and food and sometimes things were good, but I don't think I ever felt loved or special, and that's something that every child should have. All the parenting I learned was how to nitpick on my children, and how to worry. If they had been apart, we would have been dirt poor to boot. I'll never know if we would have been happier. She just never would leave him, and she never would stand up for herself or her children. Someone just has to be an adult and look out for the better part of life. Together or apart, I don't know if it matters. I know my dad was not ever going to change because as he said every time someone was miserable "it's your problem, because there's nothing wrong with me."
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Witz, while I totally agree, I don't think kids feel loved and valued when people split up and have to focus off their kids to work hard or else they bring home Stud Steve or the girl who wants to be their new mom yet wants all of Dad's time...plus maybe a few stepkids to boot...and there is absolutely no guarantee, in fact the odds are against it, that everyone will like each other or that the house will be more peaceful than the other one. When women divorce they tend to get poorer. Housing, education can deteriorate I've seen it in my own family.

Sure, it's no fun when Dad and Mom don't like each other. But it's more disruptive to the kids when they have to play musical houses with musical step-siblings and I can't help but wonder if this really helps them feel more loved or more stable. I also don't think most kids enjoy watching their parents date. That alone can be threatening...moreso than a father/mother argument.

Yeah, I'm playing devil's advocate, but I do think most of what I'm saying is true. Divorce from a spouse you fight with...perhaps it would be better to try harder? People in marriages don't try very hard these days. And second marriages are rarely better, if you look at the stats. Third marriages...can kids even think their parents believe in marriage if they can marry so many times? Can THEY learn to take a commitment seriously in a "forever" kind of way or do they think, "I don't want to be like her."

I read that marriage is now at an all time low. I do understand why. It's sad abut when I hear about somebody getting married and spending $10K on a wedding (which I think is a cheap wedding these days) all I can think about is, "Man, and the divorce will cost even more." Of course, I *did* get divorced! My kids from my first marriage had a much rougher road than the last two, and they didn't even have to go house to house. I let ex come stay at our house and went to stay with my BFF on his weekend. So their lives were relatively stable. Still, Julie did turn into a drug addict.

When I met husband #2, we got married in the park in regular clothes and this cool lady preacher did the vows. It couldn't have been more casual. We are still happily married seventeen years later and Sonic and Jumper have no mental health issues. Can't help but think the consistent love from Dad and Mom helped, plus living in one place and feeling secure. by the way, hub and I beat the 66% second time married couples who divorce. So it CAN work. For me, it was great. For my first three kids, not so sure, although both kids whom I still talk with insist that they understand that ex is difficult and why I divorced him. I don't know if they saw this at the time though.

I have no answers, but thought this could be an interesting discussion. Hope it was :)
 

LittleDudesMom

Well-Known Member
The cream always rises to the top. A quality parent is a quality parent whether married, separated or divorced. People don't truly change who they are when their marital status changes. If you are a petty and selfish person inside, that is who you are. Sometimes a good, loving partner can make a difference, but people don't inherently change who they are when that partner walks out the door.

The mark of a good person is how they handle the tough stuff in life. The decisions you make when you are in the midst of a financial or emotional struggle are the sign of who you really are.

Sharon
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
Sharon nailed it.

Frankly, I think good people can make horrible choices. And when they do - there goes the whole basket of eggs.

husband made it clear to me and Onyxx and Jett that if they didn't like me there would not be a second date. In fact our first date was to a haunted house, on Halloween, and it wasn't billed as a date to the kid - it was, "hey, do you guys mind if I bring my friend along?" Since husband had a ton of female friends (still does, and I am friends with most of them now too LOL), the kids didn't even blink. Our second date was again with the kids, and it was Onyxx's idea to invite me. Kid took a shine to me, I guess...

But husband and I are the exception. His first marriage lasted about a year. Second one, if you count the legal date, not quite 5 years (Onyxx was 2 when they married). husband and I are coming up on 8. We've had very very rough patches but I think the important part - and important for the kids to see - is we TRY. We work at it. We have argued in front of the kids - loudly - but there's no name calling, no jabs at sensitive topics (those are for calm discussion). He's stormed out and so have I. But the kids see us apologize and work on problem areas - together. (Fortunately, the really ugly fights are few and far between anymore. WHEW.)
 

Dixies_fire

Member
Hmmm...Devil's advocate....

My first marriage was an ass pain. We went through 3 separations were actually divorced for six months after a year of separation we remarried because we were living together and I decided to go into the service, you either have to be married or sign over your rights to your kids while you are in basic and training. I was NOT signing over my rights but wanted the opportunities the army could provide.

I still believe we loved each other. We fought many times but not in front of tk. We sometimes had shoving matches and slamming matches though they were not on anything approaching a regular basis. After boyo was born my sex life was slow to return and quite honestly though many will judge me. He gained roughly 75 pounds in a year. We weren't making an effort to emotionally connect he couldn't understand my ppdepression and I had to deploy when boyo was 7 months old. It was manageable if we would of made it through deployment but it was clear to me he was cheating and bringing my kids over to the other woman's house who was also married to another service member. I would have forgiven him if he had apologized and stopped when confronted, but he didn't and I couldn't turn a blind eye. I was familiar with what being a largely single parent looked and felt like from my year stint and few month forays into it previously. I knew it sucked I didn't want that. Parts of me still don't like the blended family, visitations which are not every other weekend. Ultimately he wanted out and if he couldn't apologize I wanted out too.

My current husband saved my life. I'd known him for years but we spent much time bonding and talking about our dreams and what we wanted our future to look like. My ex husband was more concerned with right now we had no plans on what 10 years from now would look like. My current husband treated me well, noticed my feelings didn't ignore them. He was good with my son, we didn't get tk till much later because she was in the middle of a school year but he was good with her when she visited.
I met his children and I knew I could love them if we ever got custody of them.

My kids love hubs when he is being hubs they tell him so every day.
When he wasn't being hubs and was this other person was quite scary. And the problem with a second marriage is unless your 1st husband is abuse to you or your children you know it's better to stay with him then it is to leave. The minute you start doubting your relationship with your second husband you start wondering if this is right? You've made so many mistakes this far is this a mistake too?

We are told that almost everything with fighting is abusive. Or maybe I should say arguing. we are taught to have pride over humility these days. I think that might be part of the problem
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
We do make the choices to cheat though. I wonder if this is more common now. Women cheat as much as men these days. Are they even thinking of their kids? How can ANYONE bring kids along while seeing a lover during a marriage????? Sick, sick, sick. Very bad choices that can really harm the children.

Sometimes I wonder, and I apply this also to myself, if divorce isn't very selfish considering that children rarely experience a better life afterward. I mean, I wanted out so I got out. My kids did suffer. I won't lie to myself about that. And they most certainly didn't like Hub #2 at first. I never brought my kids into my dating life. I didn't want them to see mommy's many relationships and men coming and going. I knew they'd take to him eventually, but it took them a while to get used to Mom and Other Man. If he had touched any of them, or bossed them around (he was not the father and had done nothing yet to earn their respect) or said nasty things to them, the marriage never would have taken place. Even though it was pretty smooth, all things considered, all three kids were affected, especially Julie who was only eight years old.
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
We work at it
Exactly. It isn't about "staying together for the kids"... it's about "making it work"... partly for the sake of the kids and partly for yourselves. But it takes two to do that
 

Dixies_fire

Member
They were house spouse friends did play dates and things and I guess it progressed so it isn't exactly like they were having an affair from the start with our kids present but that's how it ended up.

I don't think I was a great wife or very appreciative of the efforts he made. I'm just try to apply what I learned to my new marriage. I'd really like to be a better wife and mother. Stop letting life live me and living life instead.

Hubs has been making a major effort to be the man I love, instead of the monster. It makes marriage a whole lot easier when it isn't all one sided.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Exactly. It isn't about "staying together for the kids"... it's about "making it work"... partly for the sake of the kids and partly for yourselves. But it takes two to do that

in my opinion there is nothing wrong with trying extra hard to make it work for the sake of the kids. Sometimes you can't, but I don't think everyone tries that hard these days.
 

AnnieO

Shooting from the Hip
It makes marriage a whole lot easier when it isn't all one sided.
And that right there is why husband and I are still together, and XH and I just didn't make it.

husband and I both try. Each other's patience, at times, but on the whole the effort is there.
 

CrazyinVA

Well-Known Member
Staff member
But it takes two to do that

I think this is the key. There is no doubt that my kids had a tough time both before and after my divorce from their dad. But staying with him became less of an option as time went on. He had no intention of "working" on anything. Was I selfish to want a divorce? Probably, and I'm ok with that. I wanted to survive with my own psyche intact, and didn't want my kids to see me treated that way, and didn't want to waste my entire life with a man who had no respect for me and was emotionally (and occasionally physically) abusive to me -- AND who had no desire to change his behavior. I'm not sure he could have, to be honest. by the way, I am grateful for no-fault divorces. If I had had to prove abuse in order to get a divorce, I would likely not have been granted one. Emotional abuse is very difficult to prove, and I had no physical scars.

Of course, I know you're talking in general terms here... people who treat marriage as something they can get easily into and out of. I agree that it doesn't seem to mean the same thing as it did in previous generations, and I agree that in general people don't give marriage vows the respect they should. I think the key is to focus on the getting married part, and less on the divorce part. I think we as a society have to find that balance between emphasizing the importance of two-parent families being the best place to raise a child, while also emphasizing that "getting married" doesn't have to be a life goal for anyone, man or woman. You shouldn't get married because you think you're supposed to, and don't want to be alone. You should get married because you're truly ready to make a life-long commitment to live with another person (which is why I seriously doubt I'll ever get married again lol)

My parents were married over 50 years, and for most of the time I knew them, they weren't very happy together. You probably wouldn't have known it from the outside, though. I don't think my mother thought she had any other option but to stay (although later I thought she used that to be a bit of a martyr). I've thought a lot about whether or not I would have preferred if they got divorced .. and I just don't know. I remember wishing on some days when they were fighting, that they'd just get divorced. Life would have been different if that had happened, that's for sure. Now that they're gone, I just feel badly for both of them, that they didn't have the kind of happy marriage they both deserved. Especially at the end.

Those are my rambling thoughts :)
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
MWM, I really do get the staying together part if people are really doing it for the sake of the kids. If the only part of the "for the sake of the kids" is that you're going to have more money, and only one (or neither) is working on at the very least being not a pain in the tush, then maybe the money doesn't matter. When either parent is abusive and won't work on it, I really think that being comfortable financially doesn't make it a better bargain. When someone is a bully, all the shiny gifts in the world - or square meals - doesn't really help the kids. I think in those cases unless someone has to live under a bridge that those being abused need to get themselves out - for the kids.
 

everywoman

Well-Known Member
I come at this from two perspectives---

First, as a child of divorces (and both my bios were divorced a number of times!!!) I think it affected me because they were not stable as individuals. They married each other too young and then never found the love they had for each other with anyone else. They were good people, just lousy parents---Their divorce did not harm me as much as their lack of parental skills did.

As a divorcee---well, I am one of those who tried to make it work---at least I did the 2nd time.
They first man I married when I was 19 and the marriage we lived together than 6 months for 4 years we were married. He was 17 years older, mean as a snake, and abusive emotionally and physically. I think I married him to prove I was "grown" and then learned very quickly that I needed to grow up.

I married ex when I was 24---I had a 4 year old who needed an father, and he was there with all the right qualities (house, good family name, a job). The marriage was bearable the first 15 years---then the drug addiction became apparent, and although I lasted another 8 years for the sake of the kids, it was not easy. His addictive personality made him an awful spouse. If it wasn't drugs, it was religion or motorcycles, or those coffee drinks from McDonalds. Again, he is a kind, decent person, but he was a lousy husband!! He treated me well. I had everything I wanted materially. He loved me in a truly obsessive way--and in the end, it just didn't work. I had to leave to save my soul. The children were already adults when I left.

I'm now on #3 (Dear God, please don't let me turn into my mother!). My first two husbands I needed for different reasons ---Mike, I just want him! As an adult woman, with a career, and 3 adult children I love dearly but who do not "need" me, I'm beyond the age for needing anyone---but Lord, I do want to be with this man. This time is different. He is my best friend. We enjoy the same things. I've been with Mike for 3 years now, and I never tire of being with him---He does not place me on a pedestal, I am not expected to take care of him, he was single for 11 years before we ran into each other and he is capable of taking care of himself. We have the same circle of friends---people we have know since middle school. We work together side by side doing everything from cooking to yard work. For the first time in my adult life, I am enjoying living every single day!
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Hmmmmmmm. After reading all of these opinions, I still think that a lot of difficult children happen because of our family situations, including my own difficult children. But it's also other areas of society. There is no respect for adults. Sometimes the adults don't act like they are people deserving of respect, but also we see it as cute and funny on TV or in the movies when a kid yells at her parents, even a young child. Kids usually have two parent working family (this is another problem I see) and many parents can't afford sitters or GOOD sitters are hard to find and they run around with no supervision. When I was a stay at home mom and nobody else was, the kids all hung at our house and honestly...half the time I had to tell them it was dinner time. They didn't want to or have to go home and these were kids as young as eight. They raised themselves or their older siblings half-arsed raised them. A lot of them got more material things than my kids, but certainly few got the same amount of attention...at least until the divorce when I could no longer be a stay at home mom and the kids got less attention because I came home dead exhausted.

Ask teachers who have been around for as long time if kids were more respectful thirty years ago than they are now. Bet they'd all give the same answer. Kids back talk teachers all the time without much consequence.

With a teenager now, I think it's sad that there are parents I know who are afraid of their kids not liking them and who smoke pot or drink with them and their friends and who allow their kids to sleep with their boyfriends in their home. One classmate of Jumper's got pregnant by a difficult child and her mother threw her a baby shower and was just glowing with happiness. I don't think she should have tossed her daughter out the door nor sent her away to a remote aunt nor even refused to accept the situation because it's her granddaughter, even though she'll probably be raising that baby. But acting so thrilled sort of in my opinion sends a bad message. This girl's childhood is over. It's not really a good thing for her or the baby in my opinion. Jumper was really excited to go to the baby shower. It's seen as ok to have a baby when one is sixteen now.

The internet hasn't helped any. I just think we're going to see more and more difficult child children that turn into difficult child adults because we don't have strong values to cling to anymore and, really, most kids thrive on structure and knowing right from wrong. It makes for a more stable person and that just isn't out there much now, even if we try to have it in our homes. And I'm not one who thinks it's a good idea to isolate our kids from the big, bad world either because they have to live in it, with all it's flaws. I wouldn't homeschool or ban having a television just because there are things on it that I don't like. So what can ya do? Nothing but cross your fingers that your kid can make it. Most do, but more and more are not.

Just musing :)
 

InsaneCdn

Well-Known Member
So what can ya do? Nothing but cross your fingers that your kid can make it.
Step out of the mainstream. Be prepared to be poor to do it... but do whatever it takes to be able to intensively parent your kids for 18 years each. That means that, as a parent/parent-combo (ideally combo), you are THE most important influence in your child's life. And that takes both quality time AND quantity time... and high quantity of high-quality time. You can't do that, and have two parents working full time - it just cannot be done.[/QUOTE]
 
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