Do your difficult children seem to enjoy annoying u or others?

[P-nut2004]

Just wondering if anyone else is dealing with this issue....I can totally handle meltdowns due to anxiety, I get that, even the tantrums when she is angry over not getting her way make sense to me. But what on earth makes her TRY to annoy everyone and smirk about it when she manages to make someone angry?? Often in these situations she is even smirking or full out grinning when she gets in trouble for it. This is the behavior I have the hardest time dealing with because it seems so intentional and under her control. She does it to all of us, for example; this morning we were a bit rushed and I was trying very hard to get her to calmly cooperate with me and get ready but instead she was completely ignoring and defying me, dancing around smirking at me, running from me. When I finally lost my patience and went from nicely asking her to cooperate to raising my voice and telling her she would get a mark on her chart (yes the dreaded behavior chart LoL) she actually laughed and decided it was time to jump on her bed. At this point easy child 1 intervened because sometimes difficult child listens to her better than husband or me & somehow got her into her clothes while she was still dancing around. She went to school without her hair done or teeth brushed and she honestly didn't seem to care a bit. These moods are so infuriating and so in contrast with her need for structure to alleviate anxiety....I honestly can't wrap my brain around it. This was just a mild example by the way often it is things like pinching her sisters or pulling their hair and running away laughing, taking their stuff and hiding it (then telling them she did it & refusing to give it back). It just really disturbs me how much enjoyment she seems to get out of this and that punishment does not phase her at all when she's in one of these moods. Anyone have any insight?

 

[busywend]

What time does she get her Concerta? Can you give it to her before she gets out of bed?

 

[Malika]

Hmmm... sounds familiar. In certain moods (not consistently), J seems to enjoy defying and/or provoking me and, to a lesser extent I think, others... I guess there is a certain power in it. Certainly it attracts a lot of attention. What I have found with J is that it is definitely linked to my own attitude towards him - ie if I am being impatient, critical or negative towards him, he will become defiant and oppositional (and round it goes 'cos someone being defiant and oppositional of course tends to make us critical and negative). If I speak to him respectfully and kindly, he is unlikely to take this tone. Does this operate at all with your daughter? As for punishment, I have never had the remotest success with this. Only thing that seems to work is positive reinforcement and awarding "gold stars" which has been quite effective. But the oppositional defying thing IS really annoying, isn't it, really pushes the buttons - which I guess is its unconscious intention. I have to school myself not to rise to the bait, not to join in the game...
On a slightly different note, could you say more about what "expressive language disorder" is?

 

[Last ♡ Hope]

OMGGGGGGGG YES!!!! He loves it - won't stop until he's got everyone tormented to the point of tears. This morning went exactly the same way at our house. We all try to disconnect, to not let it get to us, but he won't quit until he's successful in making someone lose it - and then once he sees he's won, OMG the joy on his face, the gleeful laughter. He does every single thing you just listed in your post and then some. It's better once the Ritalin kicks in, but mornings are absolutely dreadful until that moment.

 

[P-nut2004]

Busy: Most morning she wakes up before me but the first thing I do is give her morning medications, they never seem to really do much before school. We get up at 6 and leave by 7 or 7:30 depending on the day, on later days she is just calming down when I drop her off. She takes her concerta & zoloft in the mornings and I have said from the start that the zoloft seems to combat the concerta but if she takes it later she has even more trouble sleeping.

Malika: When she is in one of these moods where she is intent on annoying someone it does not matter how many times you ask her politely to stop she will not. Eventually I feel like I have to enforce some limits as ignoring her does not work either, it only makes her more persistent. We are using a behavior chart with stars too, she gets three strikes before she loses her star for the day on a goal (she has 5 daily goals) but in her mischievous moods she finds it funny for me to go put a strike on her chart as if she has achieved her goal of irritating me.

Expressive language disorder (also referred to as auditory to verbal processing difficulties) as it was explained to me by her psychiatrist is similar to dyslexia but with hearing instead of reading. So just as dyslexics see letters & numbers differently & have to learn to 'interpret' it, she hears things differently. We thought she just had a slight speech disorder but testing found the real issue. The words get mixed up in her head and she cant process them normally so although she reads wonderfully and writes beautifully she has trouble spelling phonetically & has to memorize words before she gets them right, she still has trouble pronouncing some letter sounds, also she cannot follow verbal instructions well at all & does MUCH better with lists of things to do. As far as school goes she does not learn well when the teacher stands at the board & teaches because she only understands what is written down, she has to have 1 on 1 time with each step written out for her and then she gets it and you dont have to explain it again. Hope that explanation makes sense LoL it took me a bit to really understand it too.

LH: Glad someone else has this issue & I feel for you too LoL I guess my biggest concern is how malicious it seems, especially when she's tormenting the PCs or the dogs. Also, I REALLY hope she isn't doing this to her friends in or out of school....the few that she has, that is.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Yours sounds more like a mornings and/or pre-medications thing, but... just in case...

Just about as predictable, but not by clock or calendar... if he gets "down" (anxiety and/or mood), usually because something is coming up at school (performance, test, new section of a class), OR something didn't go well (bad mark on test etc.)... then he tries to drag everyone else down too.

These kids seem to be hyper-sensitive to self-driven comparisons. When they feel the gap is too big between themselves and others... they can't pull themselves up, so the only option is to try to pull others down. And because they are good at that, they end up with an internal "success" reward.

But its really tough to head it off - don't always know what's going on, until something goes wrong - and pulling others down is one of those "somethings".

If I had answers... then we wouldn't be dealing with it either!

 

[TerryJ2]

Yes.
ADHD + perseverance + immaturity + need for attention = difficult child.

 

[P-nut2004]

*I know this is random in the middle of this thread LoL but I decided I liked the personalization of using initials for the kids so easy child 1 is K, easy child 2 is C & difficult child is L.....

Insane: Its def not just a morning thing, she does it any time of day, just used this morning as an example. One of her other favorite times to annoy everyone is in the car, when we can't get away & I cant really do much to stop her. It is 'normal' for me to be driving down the road asking L to please stop while K &/or C are yelling "She's hitting/kicking/poking me etc"

I do like your explanation of them pulling others down to 'level the playing field' it makes sense that she would feel powerful in that position. And of course tormenting the dogs is also her exercising power over something else, thank goodness they are all well enough behaved to tolerate it without biting. She doesn't usually hurt the dogs (not intentionally, at least I don't think so) but she will tease them, pull their tails, do the things she knows make them bark (for instance if L crawls around on the floor pretending to bark and growl Kahlua goes nuts barking and growling back at her). Obviously I do not allow this behavior and always intervene quickly but she definitely gets alot of joy out of irritating the snot out of everyone in the house and you're right it is very hard to predict it and prevent it, plus some days there is no way to actually stop her without physically placing her in her room & she doesn't even have a door I can shut to keep her in or isolate her.

Uggh.... atleast this appears to be 'typical' difficult child behavior & not a sign that my child will be some sort of psychopath/sociopath that enjoys other peoples pain & suffering, which honestly is what this behavior makes me worry about, especially when L has taunted C until she's bawling and L is laughing and still not letting up. (And yet other days the girls are all very close and loving toward each other, its perplexing)

 

[DaisyFace]

Does my difficult child seem to enjoy annoying others?

Of course! In fact, it's the thing she seems to enjoy above all else!

Why?

Well...that I don't know...

But I definitely feel your pain!

 

[P-nut2004]

Meant to also say THANK YOU! to everyone who has replied, you guys made me feel alot better about this issue, although Im still clueless as to what to do about it LoL

 

[InsaneCdn]

You asked about what helps change this behavior... so I had to think back, because we HAVE reduced the volume of this garbage stuff...

It takes ... tons of money. Seriously. What helped the most was to find things they can be really, really, really good at, and then get them all the right stuff to be that good... so, we have (not quite literally, but close): a band room, a wood-working shop, a mechanics shop plus used stuff to work on, a huge garden, a re-done kitchen that enables 3 of us to work in there at the same time without going insane... and yes, we're broke. We've decided that spending our retirement in poverty is better than spending our retirement wishing we'd at least given the kids a chance...

Nothing helps self-esteem more than success. I just wish the price tag were smaller..

 

[TiredSoul]

Mine does this as well. I can hold it together during most things - but this makes me CRAZY! It's like he is possessed or drunk or crazy or something. I do not know how to handle it one bit. Would love to hear more ideas of what to do to deal with it - because flipping out and screaming doesn't help one bit. (sigh) Mine does this mostly in the evenings before bed.

 

[susiestar]

This is one of the things that bothered us the most with Wiz. The delight, even glee, that he got when he had succeeded in making someone get mad or lose their cool. He was genius at it, esp with husband. husband is a very gentle person and HATES to think that he is hurting someone. Even getting splinters out is hard because he knows that sometimes it has to hurt to get the splinter out. He also was just not capable of meeting Wiz on his level on topics that husband wasn't interested it. I could find something to enjoy in most of the things Wiz wanted to do but husband had a super hard time. he also never really "got" wiz' personality. So Wiz would do all sorts of things to get a reaction from him.

Even now he cannot tell us why.

I think it is a way to have control. They want to spread the chaos and fear they feel inside so that everyone feels as they feel. They like making someone upset because then they are controlling what that person does. It is fairly simple as a concept and impossible to stop. I do find that love and logic strategies work very well. At one time that kind of manipulation was rewarded with the loss of privilege. I stopped trying to explain why. he knew, they all know that it is the wrong thing to do. They will still say it is unfair, wrong, they didn't know better - and they will seem convincing.

The fact is that they DO know better and it won't stop easily. So don't explain, redirect when possible or remove her to a room with no one to bother. That is what bothered Wiz the most. I would make him stay in a room by himself that had no tv or computer or video games. At one point I had to strip his room and still made him spend time there.

My mother gave me the best tools for this. As a kid if we were starting to tease or fight or whatever she would call one of us to do a chore. take out the trash, clean the cat box, feed and water the dog, pck up something, etc... Never mentioned what we were doing, just "Susie, I need you to feed the dog." or "difficult child, please take out the trash now." If it didn't stop after that, another request was made of a similar type. If it still didn't stop? Life was NOT GOOD. No tv, or a longer tougher chore or both happened.

She NEVER addressed the teasing/poking/provoking. But we soon figured out that if we were going to start doing whatever it was, we were going to get more chores. So we eventually stopped because we didn't want the consequences. She almost never lost her cool over this. Cries that it wasn't fair were met with "Life isn't fair. If life was fair I would be 5'6" and stacked." , She is a very petite small chested woman and there was NO way to argue with that.

I will say that she was floored to see the lengths that Wiz took this to. it wasn't until we were living with her that she really saw it - and it was a total eye opener. One afternoon she interrupted him trying to upset Jessie 15 times!! Then she lost her cool with him and told him that it was really really sick to want to upset someone that much and she was TOTALLY disappointed in him. I think it was the first time she really lost it with him. It made an impact because she was his favorite person and he counted on her making his punishments less than what we said they would be. He countedo n it even though she didn't interfere often up to that point. But he thought she might until then.

This was when she began to understand that though the behavior might be something a normal kid might do, it was teh extremes that it was taken to that made him a difficult child, Know what I mean??

 

[P-nut2004]

Insane: Thank you so much for that suggestion, I pondered it quite a bit last night & the only 'activities' that L really loves are playing on her computer & arts/crafts. husband has decided we shouldn't take away her computer as punishment because she only does educational activities for the most part (however, when she's in trouble I wont let her watch movies on it) so I suppose I could find some better games and such for her. The arts & crafts stuff I know I could invest more in, I have been meaning to set aside an area in their playroom for just that. Right now the art supplies are so disorganized I get frustrated and 'ground' her from them & I have refused to buy anymore (because there are paper scraps and stickers and marker etc ALL over my house)....but I think giving her a dedicated place to go work on a project would help because she takes more pride in her artwork than anything else & she is REALLY good at it. So my mission for this weekend is now to get that corner set up and sorted for her. She is going to a magnet school next year that is better equipped to deal with her issues & they have a very 'free' learning style so I know she gets to choose to be in an art class & that should help too. Also thought of dedicating a wall as her 'gallery' to hang her work on. I LOVE this idea & again THANK YOU!

Jules: You are correct, flipping out and screaming will NOT work for this behavior (or any other with a difficult child really), I learned very quickly that this is what L wants so I wont completely lose my temper but it is very trying. I have learned to walk away if at all possible and cool down before coming back & trying again, it helps alot that K & C will step in and try to help calm L down when I'm at my limit.

Susie: You are correct, she knows its wrong, but she definitely feels no remorse when she's in these moods (or most of the time for that matter). I stripped her room months ago of everything but books & her computer (DHs idea to leave that ) and she is allowed only 3 dolls or stuffies on her bed. All other toys must stay in the playroom and if I find them around my house they go in the trash (I do stick to this *wince* unless its something I paid too much for to trash it LoL then it just 'disappears' for while). I try to remove her to her room when possible, unfortunately some days she literally will not stay in there and she is past me being able to put up a baby gate so I don't know what to do to keep her in confinement (FYI she has no door because she will shut it and block it). I have on occasion, when she's completely out of control, used a belt to secure her into a chair (like a seat belt) and placed her facing the wall for time out but she only stays there if I threaten physical punishment as a next step, which I HATE doing and its a total joke here anyway because I wont pop them hard & they all know it. It is soo hard with these kids to enforce boundaries when no punishment seems too bad to them, they are definitely more capable than most kids of weighing out the punishment and deciding "OK its worth it to lose a star" or "How is mom really going to KEEP me in my room?" it so exasperating.
As for the chores as 'punishment' I do exactly what ur mom did with K & C, if they are fighting I will not even threaten anything I just say "Alright, K go do the dishes & C go empty trash cans" and they balk but they do it & then they go behave quietly somewhere. L on the other hand will not do this, if she is misbehaving and I tell her its time to put her things away she either ignores me or she loses it, throws stuff, breaks stuff, stomps around screaming, its totally ineffective with her. Which is what, as you said, makes her a difficult child!

((HUGS)) to everyone dealing with this issue & thank you for the advice!

 

[rbenson]

Hi, I'm new to this site but share everybody's pain. I have a 13 y/o difficult child who delights in tormenting. He's always had a tendency toward impulsivity and vocal tics along with ODD at home. Not at school. Saves it for home. He seems to be fairly directionless, needing a lot of structure. this behavior is directed more at me than his mom who doesn't react much. He has found an accomplice in his 11 y/o sister who is easy child 1. He likes to bring her down to his level. I'm at my wits end but am thankful I found this group and thread. I'm worried about future antisocial behaviors, substance use and the like. I like the response about the importance of success and the cost of it. I'm also hoping that some medicine might help his frontal lobes to be more self directed and to decrease the need he has for adrenaline rushes. He's on Tenex but I don't see any benefit. I'm close to trying him on stimulants now but afraid that we might see a worsening of this behavior. Maybe someone has some experience with this?? Appreciate any and all comments.

 

[Star*]

When she does the pinching?
She's bored and l
looking for attention. and
Instant gratification

Like - I'm bored, I want attention - HOW or WHAT can I do to get everyone in the house thinking and talking about MEeeeeeeeeeeeee? Oh I know - when I pinch they all talk and think about ME -

Whether it's negative or positive - you're all thikning and talking about her - SO-------let's do just that but on YOUR terms and in SPADES....

This is what we were told to do with Dude, and for us? it was a little easier because there were just myself, DF , the other brother and Dude - (Steven passed away 2 years ago, but he was a difficult child too, not near the level of Dude)
We did miss a LOT of movies, and ate a lot of frozen pizzas instead of going out - but it works. It's a real PITA - because the rest of the kids are going to go BUT WHY DO I HAVE TO COME WATCH HER GET PUNISHED? And in a way they're right - but eventually even the pincher kid is going to start wishing THE OTHER KIDS - weren't there watching her - because while all of you are watching her? You're not talking about her - AT ALL - you're all laughing and having a good conversation about everything BUT her. If she even peeks her nose out of the corner - SHE gets another minute and then the other kids are going to groan - and THAT is going to be where she's not going to like being in the limelight. She's going to WANT to be part of the family laughter, and not be allowed to UNTIL she finishes her punishement - But by then? it will be over. But there will be OTHER times to include her - just not if she's pinching ---or stealing. Seems those are the TWO behaviors you are trying to correct the most right now.


Dude had a bad habit of pinching the dogs. So the therapist said when Dude does that behavior - grab him, and put him in the corner (because he HATED the corner). We used to do pushups - but then he got to where he LIKED pushups and DF said "OMG the kids going to have arms like Popeye and come back and kick my butt. But the corner? Hated it. Also? The punishment for difficult child's has to be IMMEDIATE. They need/crave immediate gratification, and for something like this? They need immediate punitive measures.

So she would pinch the sister. When this happens? THE ENTIRE house - would shut down, the pincher would be taken to a corner, and the ENTIRE family would gather behind her quietly, and a timer would be started. Lets say for she's 8 years old - she gets 8 minutes. Those 8 minutes? She has to stand there QUIETLY, with her nose in the corner. If she gets out of the corner, add a minute. If she talks? Add a minute. If it's 30 minutes - you all can Take a seat. But she's standing there. You all can talk, discuss everything else - BUT her. Encourage that actually laughter chatter - everything BUT talking about her.

At the end of her time - IF she gets mouthy, or steals, or pinches again coming out of the corner like being vindictive? THE TIME would be DOUBLED. If you are there alone? YOU put her there and she gets 8 minutes for pinching, 8 minutes for stealing. 1 minute added for every minute she doesn't do her time correctly and WASTES YOUR TIME. When she is done? The timer goes off? ALL the explaining is done BEFORE she goes into punishment. If you want to say anything when she comes out - You merely say "I'm proud of you for doing your punishment like a big girl, I love you." before she goes in - You can say "For pinching your sister? Your punishment is 8 minutes standing in the corner and we will ALL watch you. This is because pinching is painful, not appreciated and not how we treat each other. If you are angry at XX sister you can tell me, and I am the Mom, I will decide if something isn't fair. YOU do not make the rules in this house." Or however you word your home rules. Then you say something like THIS is your punishment, You wanted attention so now we will ALL watch you. Your time starts now, and is done when you hear the bell ding, if you move or talk a minute will be added. NO bathroom breaks - if you have to go - go now." WORD TO THE WISE - DO NOT ALLOW HER TO LOCK THE BATHROOM DOOR.

We've stood around and watched DUDE - for NEARLY AN HOUR and then it gets to the point where even HE realizes - OMG I'm not just wasting time - I'm wasting MY time. he got to the point where it was corner time he would trudge there, and just put his nose in it, stand there quietly, and it even got to where DF would just kinda hang back and Dude would even say "You don't have to Come watch me Dad - I got this." But DF would come anyway.


But at first? They will test everyones patience because - THEY ARE GETTING AN AUDIENCE....and they are getting INSTANT gratification. And yes EVERYONE HAS TO WATCH THEM -----that's what they wanted -

eventually it won't be so cool to have all your siblings, Mom and DAD sit around and watch YOU STAND in the corner while they are all laughing and talking and joking - and no - you can not commute the time to a later time it's done WHEN she pinches or steals.

If you think THIS is wicked you should see what we had to do for a liar. THAT"S even more of a PITA. Oh and the getting them to the punishment? FUN! I mean corners might not be her thing - but to this day? Dude hates corners.

Run it by her therapist - maybe he's got a better plan or maybe she hates to write - I will not pinch 500 times - every time she does this......but it helped us a lot.

AND the kicker to it all? We have Bulldogs - the one that he kept on and on and one with bit him in the face. It was our pitbull. We took him to the ER - he was fine. The therapist said "Haven't you learned anything?" About two weeks later? The dog broke his nose and it's still broken. He got very lucky - this particular dog had to be neutered because he was so aggressive and had it been anyone else but this kid? He'd probably had to have his face sewn back on. the therapist advised us not to remove the dog - we said we had no inteniton of removing the dog. He said good, when he gets bit? He'll learn. We agreed. He pinched that dog unmercifully. When he was caught? We all went to the corner. Now he has a dog of his own and is so protective over her I wouldn't even like to think about the wind blowing the wrong way over her, let alone someone pinching her on purpose.

Just a thought - but you wanted an idea of why she gets her jollies on pinching - she feels she's getting away wtih something. She's doing something she wants to do, the consequences are not THAT severe in her mind because it's just Mom yelling at her - she can take that - so she smirks....YOU get upset (she gets another perk) and in a few minutes everyone goes back to their state of walking on eggshells until she blows her horn again.

Level the playing field. Put her in the corner and give her some attention. See how much attention she really wants from her family. Just don't tell her that's why your're doing it - Just reinfornce pinching hurts, not tolerated, and punish immediately with everyone watching her.

 

[susiestar]

Star's advice should be implemented IMMEDIATELY. She is excellent at getting to the heart of the reason and finding a way to make it work for YOU and not the difficult child. I advise getting something like MadLibs for the family to do while you are watching her have her time out. difficult child can NOT participate even in the laughter, but the rest of you can. It iwll be a lot of fun and will drive home the point that much faster. You may want to use describing word for adjective, that type of thing if your kids are not aware of the actual parts of speech. this is how my kids learned them. We started playing MadLibs when Wiz was 3 (he could read chapter books by his 4th birthday - not nearly as fun as that sounds by the way) and the other kids grew up with them so by an early age all could participate.

It may seem "mean" to not include difficult child in the family fun, but it is a direct consequence to her action. Giving her hte attention she craves in a way that is NOT fun is going to be a key to getting her to change. It won't be quick and the first few weeks you may spend a LOT of time as a family watching her in the corner. It is why I suggested MadLibs. Also get the kids to tell you their fave jokes, etc...

A fun thing for her gallery wall is to paint some frames on the wall. you can use masking tape to outline the frame area (make it big enough that most of her pictures/papers will fit inside iwth some room to spare) and then use those paints in the craft section of walmart that are about $1 each. Paint the inside of the frame a color that will set off the artwork, and then the frame in brown like wood, or silver or gold. It is a cheap way to give her "frames" and she can change the pics in them as often as she wants. Also think about giving her a set box and any artwork she wants to keep must either be in that box or hanging onthe wall inside one of her frames. It can even be called her "art museum" or art gallery. But if the frames and box are full then she has to get rid of something to put something new in there. You could even as at the pizza place for a clean, empty box for this use. the medication or large size are often a good size for this - big enough to not fold things but not so big that it takes up a ton of storage space.

 

[P-nut2004]

Star: Thank you! I think this idea will work well for her if we can stay at it long enough for her to figure out that she has to stay there quietly to get out. I have somewhat done this before but I always felt like I was being mean and torturing her by making sure she knew we were all having fun without her. Hopefully this will show her that it isn't always fun to have everyone's attention, which would be a fabulous change here! She is also used to using a timer for time out and resetting it/ adding minutes if she wont stay there quietly. In fact I refuse to start her time until she stops screaming so she has quit pitching a fit about going to the corner, its just an ordeal to keep her there. I hadn't thought of us all watching her, we've always done the opposite & left her there alone (but where I could see her).

As for the bulldog story, I totally expect this to happen at some point. We have two pitbulls who are so well behaved and so loving but she tests them. Our male, Zeus, is huge (90lbs) & just turned 2, and she learned not to mess with him much because he doesn't get mean he gets hyper and will knock her down, step on her etc, he's like a bull in a china shop when he's wound up. Our poor female, KoKo, was raised around our kids & others & rescue dogs, she is 9 yrs old and we have trained her so well she almost never shows any aggression or even dominance toward ppl or other dogs. So L loves to torture her and somedays I honestly wish she would atleast nip at L and scare her but she tolerates it for a while then runs and hides instead. The chihuahuas on the other hand will bite her, yesterday our 2lb teacup 'Winston' literally attacked her, bit her several times because she picked him up (which she's not allowed to do anyway) and proceeded to squeeze him and kiss all over his head, which he hates. I heard the commotion in her room & went to check, L started whining about her arms & I looked at them and told her she deserved it, he has a right to defend himself & she wasn't bleeding so I refused to do anything for her. I'm honestly scared she will really hurt him (she already killed K&Cs guinea pig as retaliation) and I wouldn't have gotten one that tiny 'on purpose' he was a rescue that sortof fell into our laps (I'm still considering placing him but husband is absolutely in love with him). I hope we don't have to deal with her being bit badly at any point because here they will take the dog if its one of our pits and most likely put it down & that would not be fair because they take alot from L & never fight back.

Susie: I like the mad libs & jokes idea, K & C will get a kick out of that and I want hear as much of the "Why do we have to sit here when she's in trouble?". Also I LOVE the frames idea for the 'gallery' wall. And the box is a great idea too, she has a tendency to be a hoarder and already has a full size paper box in her room for saved art work and 'in progress' artwork, if it gets full she has to go thru it and throw some away. She even saves any boxes etc with pictures she wants to cut out and use so it can get crazy. I think I'm going to make a 'morgue' box/folder (it's an art term for a collection of pictures you want to use) and limit her on how much of that she keeps too. Unfortunately my G'ma created that issue, she has always sent the girls tons of pictures she cuts out for them, K & C never cared but L keeps all of it. FWIW G'ma is a serious hoarder, there is one path thru her whole house just wide enough for one person, so I def want to curb this behavior now, especially since I have my own 'hording tendencies' and if it weren't for husband Id have ALOT more 'stuff'.

Thank You guys!! I love this place!

 

[ML]

Insane I never thought of it that way but it makes perfect sense. Thank you.

I have tried to engage manster in conversations about what drives him to do this. He tries to describe to me the drive he has to annoy but is as perplexed as me as to the why.