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Don't Shoot The Dog!
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<blockquote data-quote="SuZir" data-source="post: 585136" data-attributes="member: 14557"><p>Well, I don't get offended if someone compares my whelp to the dog. So I have always used dog training methods with my kids. After all, before the age three, the difference in learning is not big at all. And even after that, when child already does some conceptual thinking and you are starting to teach them values and things like wrong and right (instead of just allowed and prohibited) basics of learning stay the same. Positive and negative reinforcements and punishments, power of intermittent reinforcement etc. works just as well with dogs, horses and humans. </p><p></p><p>I have trained animals most of my life and what I have learned with horses and dogs have been the best parenting lessons I have had. And to be honest, best lessons on getting other people do what you want in general. I have also found that forceing myself look into things from conditioning perspective helps to get my own, out of control emotions down. And as probably everyone knows, it never ends well, when you tackle your kids' behaviours with your own feelings being out of control. </p><p></p><p>One of the biggest lessons, hard to learn with dogs, even harder with kids, is that no dog is an a**hole. They don't do things just to p*** you off. they try to do well and if things go south you either wasn't being clear enough on what you wanted, the task was too difficult for them, or the reward wasn't big enough/right/they got bigger reward doing things differently. And most of the time the problem is one of the first two. And you can't expect the dog to fix it. It is up to you. This is totally same with especially younger children. Teen can occasionally flip a bird for you just because, but even they most of the time want to do well. And in the end, so do adults.</p><p></p><p>Other big lesson took time to learn (but I'm dense like that.) I have been training horses for years. I used to be quite a good rider and I can still train young or lower level horses though I'm not riding enough to have things fine-tuned any more. In traditional horse training negative reinforcement is used a lot. In fact riding is based to that. Rider ads pressure, horse yields and pressure goes away. Peace is used as a reward. That works very well with teenage kids, at least boys. When you want something, add constant pressure, not too strong, but enough to activate them. When they yield remember to immediately take the pressure off and reward with peace. Works better than about anything (and by the way, works well also with husbands.) Positive reinforcement works better with smaller kids, but teens tend to be more reluctant to that.</p><p></p><p>I have never actually used a clicker with my kids, but it hasn't been far. I have for example rewarded them with candies put to the jars they got at Saturdays. Amount of candy depended on what they had earned during the week.</p><p></p><p>by the way, difficult child's mental coach/sport psychologist had (only half jokingly) suggested clicker to his technique training, because difficult child seems to have some difficulty from learning from some traditional methods (for some reason he has difficult time connect the things his coach shows to him from video tape to what he actually does and because of that gets corrections often wrong.) If I have understood correctly they are really trying some methods very close to clicker techniques/shaping.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SuZir, post: 585136, member: 14557"] Well, I don't get offended if someone compares my whelp to the dog. So I have always used dog training methods with my kids. After all, before the age three, the difference in learning is not big at all. And even after that, when child already does some conceptual thinking and you are starting to teach them values and things like wrong and right (instead of just allowed and prohibited) basics of learning stay the same. Positive and negative reinforcements and punishments, power of intermittent reinforcement etc. works just as well with dogs, horses and humans. I have trained animals most of my life and what I have learned with horses and dogs have been the best parenting lessons I have had. And to be honest, best lessons on getting other people do what you want in general. I have also found that forceing myself look into things from conditioning perspective helps to get my own, out of control emotions down. And as probably everyone knows, it never ends well, when you tackle your kids' behaviours with your own feelings being out of control. One of the biggest lessons, hard to learn with dogs, even harder with kids, is that no dog is an a**hole. They don't do things just to p*** you off. they try to do well and if things go south you either wasn't being clear enough on what you wanted, the task was too difficult for them, or the reward wasn't big enough/right/they got bigger reward doing things differently. And most of the time the problem is one of the first two. And you can't expect the dog to fix it. It is up to you. This is totally same with especially younger children. Teen can occasionally flip a bird for you just because, but even they most of the time want to do well. And in the end, so do adults. Other big lesson took time to learn (but I'm dense like that.) I have been training horses for years. I used to be quite a good rider and I can still train young or lower level horses though I'm not riding enough to have things fine-tuned any more. In traditional horse training negative reinforcement is used a lot. In fact riding is based to that. Rider ads pressure, horse yields and pressure goes away. Peace is used as a reward. That works very well with teenage kids, at least boys. When you want something, add constant pressure, not too strong, but enough to activate them. When they yield remember to immediately take the pressure off and reward with peace. Works better than about anything (and by the way, works well also with husbands.) Positive reinforcement works better with smaller kids, but teens tend to be more reluctant to that. I have never actually used a clicker with my kids, but it hasn't been far. I have for example rewarded them with candies put to the jars they got at Saturdays. Amount of candy depended on what they had earned during the week. by the way, difficult child's mental coach/sport psychologist had (only half jokingly) suggested clicker to his technique training, because difficult child seems to have some difficulty from learning from some traditional methods (for some reason he has difficult time connect the things his coach shows to him from video tape to what he actually does and because of that gets corrections often wrong.) If I have understood correctly they are really trying some methods very close to clicker techniques/shaping. [/QUOTE]
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