Family of Origin (FOO) Support Thread Part 2

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I keep thinking the same thing is FS. What if my son cannot do any better than he is?

The wickedness in the way he speaks to you, in the way he treats you now as opposed to when he was growing up is the key.

There are likely real deficits. The horrific way he treats you Copa, this is what addicted kids do to their moms.

He did not hate you, then.

He does not hate you, now.

I believe integrity goes first, sacrificed to the addiction, to the need of it. Next, empathy. Finally, a kind of anhedonia, a kind of inability to be touched, or ever to touch, or ever to believe in, love.

I believe it is shame in the face of the way we love them that keys and stokes and requires that last emotion...hatred.

But I am just a person, and I don't really know, either. This is just how it seems to me.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I wanted to say something, even then. To ask her Mama, could you tell me, "thank you?" I did not. I do not know way it bothers me so much. Still.

Could it be that "Thank you." would mean you had been seen and recognized and cherished, after all those years, while "I am grateful." means only "I suffer less." Nothing personal. No recognition of your sacrifice of self and life time for her sake.

Richard Rohr is on Oprah Super Soul Sunday right now. He just said: When we take offense, when we are hurt, we are responding from a false sense of self and not from who we are, really. We are responding from what we need rather than from what we have given.

In a way, he is saying that it is our business to love as and how and when we can and let go of the rest. Let go of the why and the hurt and just do what is there for us to do the best way we know.

And, like Maya says, when we know better we do better.

So, that makes sense to me.

Cedar
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Here, a link to it and other PDF files.

I read about "Happiness in the Kitchen" from The Atlanta Woman's Club Cookbook.

This is an extraordinary link, nerfie! I can look into so many old, old cookbooks and see where we've been and how attitudes have changed regarding meal preparation and table setting and I love that stuff.

Thank you.

:O)

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I believe integrity goes first, sacrificed to the addiction, to the need of it. Next, empathy. Finally, a kind of anhedonia, a kind of inability to be touched, or ever to touch, or ever to believe in, love.

I believe it is shame in the face of the way we love them that keys and stokes and requires that last emotion...hatred.
Cedar, I believe you are right. I just cannot stand the thought of it.

Even 4 or 5 years ago he still showed others that he loved me.

When he was 20 he joined me in a small agricultural town where I was working. He had been for a short time living with a few young men in the Coastal town where we had lived together.

He was joyful to rejoin me. His therapist at the time described it, as coming to his beloved. It embarrasses me to write this. As if to have my son love me like this, I had to have done something shameful.

And even 4 years ago, when he went to the BIG CITY after I threw him out here. The hotel owner, Mark, said that my son as if worshiped me, that I was bigger than life, to him.

When each of these men said these things to me, I could not feel or see the love of my son for me. Part of it was guilt, I think.

By this time my son had a great deal of frustration that he could not easily overcome his dependency upon me. And that this was what was needed most of all. I felt it must have been my fault.

Sometimes, Cedar, I have thought that we may have been the same kind of Mothers. That our love was so strong, so true, so pure, so selfless that the love itself was the problem. For our sons.

That there was nothing in real life that could match it. My love for my son and his for me had become a wind against him.

And that my son came to hate me for that thing from which he could not tear himself away. That I am the drug. That he would degrade himself for. And he hates me for it.

My pain is so great. I feel that as much energy as I put to this, I could achieve World Peace or at least in the Middle East.

Thank you everybody for being here. I am deeply grateful.
 
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BusynMember

Well-Known Member
He was joyful to rejoin me. His therapist at the time described it, as coming to his beloved. It embarrasses me to write this. As if to have my son love me like this, I had to have done something shameful.
I have a few thoughts. Maybe i am way off base.

Of course, we want our kids to love us.

I am not sure it is healthy for a young man in his 20s to love his mother to t he point of worship and maybe he knows it is not the norm so he is fighting it now. I mentioned how my brother wrote almost love letters to my deceased mother, years after her death, and has never had a live in relationship with a peer in his life. I don't think he has had a love relationship at all in his life. This astounds me and I don't feel it is normal. Perhaps he loved our mother so much, and she him, that he could not find anyone equal to her, in his eyes. Your son may feel the same way and be fighting that, knowing it isn't good for him and it's not. He may be VERY jealous of M. for this as he always had you to himself and did not ever want to give that up. But that is not healthy either. At least, I don't think it is. It could be why he tries to sabatage your relationship with M. How did he take it when you first introduced him to M? This is for your thoughts, not f or us unless you want to share it.

When you write about your son, I have not gotten a clear cut picture of him and perhaps that is how you want it to be. I do not know if he always had lots of friends or close friends or if he spent most of his childhood traveling with just you. If so, and I have no idea if that's how it was, it is normal that he'd seek out other people and try to break his dependence. Does he have friends now? You don't have to answer. These are questions to ask yourself and to share only if you want.

Often when kids are TOO close to their parents, they rebel and break away at some time. For parents whose kids were also their companionship, it is hard for us to do. I'll say right now I miss the Jumper of three years ago who loved to hang with me. She is an adult now a nd very kind to me...I have no complaints, only good things to say about my girl. But she is eager to see people in her own life first...her school, her job, her boyfriend. This may be the last summer she ever lives with us because the next stage of her college course is year around. Plus her boyfriend is going to get a house near her school (which is also near where he lives) and she is considering living with him.

She is my baby. The last. But I have to act ok and let her go with a smile. That smile you saw in the pictures, those who saw the pictures, is my good face. I smile a lot. I'm sure people who see me around where I live and at work, ESPECIALLY at work because I'm kind of a joker, all think I am a really happy person. But I havae anxiety underneath and depression at times. So others don't know. My kids don't know t hat I wish I could keep them closer to me. That' I'm jealous of the days w hen they wanted "mommy, mommy, mommy!!!"

So this could be hard for your son, Copa, as it is f or you.

I am not going to pretend to k now the impact on my siblings when my mother died. They both loved her. I am thinking it hit my brother harder as he really has nobody else, as far as significant other or kids.

That you are disappointed in your son may make him rebellious and hostile because he wants so much to have your approval, as we all want from our mothers, but then again he is fighting you, maybe for the same reason that he wants you to approve of him, maybe thinking "I'm not good enough and she will never approve of me so I'm not even going to try."

I know I did this "I'm not even going to try" a lot with b oth my mother and myself.

Now I was never tied to my mother either. When I was able to finally make friends, they were the important ones. But I never really stopped wanting my mother to approve of me, even when I was in my 20's (maybe after that I cared less).

I don't know if you get what I'm trying to say and I hope you are not offended. It is not meant to mean you were a poor mother. I think you were a great mother. I was just sort of free associating again with ideas t hat came to me.

These are such hard questions and we will never have hard data to know what drives somebody else's behavior.

I'm sorry that you hurt.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I am not sure it is healthy for a young man in his 20s to love his mother to t he point of worship and maybe he knows it is not the norm so he is fighting it now.
Hi SWOT. I never thought he worshiped me. That was the comment of that hotel owner betrayer that took in my son after I threw him out. Giving him refuge for years, and letting him do anything. Without giving anything in return.

I never saw any indication of worship. I would have found it repugnant.

All I wanted was to raise a healthy boy and healthy male. I am searching my soul to find where it all went wrong. Turning my heart inside out. I more than anybody knows that worship is not what we strive for.

I do believe he loved me at one time. That is all I know.

It is just that I search my mind over and over again to try to figure this out. So that I can have peace and understand how to deal with my son.

I am coming to believe that all of this soul searching and laying it all out by eviserating myself is a mistake. It is what it is. I was not a bad mother. I am a normal person. I did not do what your Mother did. My son is not like your brother.
He may be VERY jealous of M. for this as he always had you to himself and did not ever want to give that up.
This is absolutely true. While he adored M before we became involved, my son told me, that he had pain. "It has always been just us, Mom." But by that time he was already being hostile and resistant with me, and I knew the solution was not in my continued devotion. It had to come from something else. Independence. Achievement. Something. But not Love.
Does he have friends now?
He has a best friend, which is where he wants to go. He wants to move back in with the friend and the friend's father. The son is an unlicensed landscape concrete contractor. His English is poor. My son speaks fluent Portuguese and is a help to him in the communications side.

My son has had lots of acquaintances but this is his only true, best friend.

SWOT, I know you are trying to help me. I did not set out to get my son's worship. I just loved him. At one time, he loved me.

I am just very, very lost and sad in all of this. And trying to find my footing and then my way.

Thank you.

COPA
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
He was joyful to rejoin me. His therapist at the time described it, as coming to his beloved. It embarrasses me to write this. As if to have my son love me like this, I had to have done something shameful.

I loved my son in that special way too, Copa. Each of my children was so different in the way they loved me. My son's love was a more tender and protective thing. As his addiction deepened it turned manipulative and I never even got that until SWOT posted for us here about abusive adult children and there I was.

Huh.

Sure enough.

Copa? It's important that you know that when our son stops using for a time, he has so far been able to come back to himself. Even this last time, he was able to come back. We think now that when he hates us, he must be using. I don't think they need to use enough to be totally out of it, either. I do believe the brain is wrung of the chemicals it needs to fuel empathy and discernment and even, love, to create whatever the high is.

When your son stops Copa, your son ~ the man you know and love ~ will begin to come back.

I know you don't believe drug use is the core of this, Copa.

I didn't, either.

You may be right. I can only tell you what happened to us, and what we were able to figure out, now, with the clarity of vision come of hindsight, about what happened, then.

I am still broken-hearted, Copa.

He was the coolest, sweetest, funniest, kindest kid.

And then, he wasn't.

Sometimes, Cedar, I have thought that we may have been the same kind of Mothers. That our love was so strong, so true, so pure, so selfless that the love itself was the problem. For our sons.

That there was nothing in real life that could match it. My love for my son and his for me had become a wind against him.

I'm sorry, Copa. I disagree. Boys do love their moms. They protect their moms, they appreciate their moms and laugh and tell them jokes. They carry their luggage and buy them gifts that are just right and they bring things home for them when they travel.

And then, they don't.

My son changed when I abandoned him.

That is his truth. I did abandon him. I have posted about this. I was so sure I had harmed my daughter to have made it impossible for her to do other than she was doing. I did not want to harm my son in that same way.

I lost my confidence. I became a frightened, guilty, uncertain mother searching for where she had harmed her daughter and terrified of harming her son.

So, in that sense, I did abandon him.

For those reading, no matter what anyone says to you about why one child may be acting out, unless they can tell you specifically what is wrong and give you specific tools to correct it, keep faith with yourself and your family.

I cannot stress that enough.

Our son was twelve when our daughter went into her first treatment center.

That said Copa, as I understand it, our son began using cocaine at 16. He was working at one of the finest restaurants in our city. He had his own car, was doing well in school ~ was even running for class president...and then, he wasn't. A multitude of other drugs followed. Again, believing our family was wrong in some essential way we could not see, believing treatment centers only made things worse because no one had been able to help our daughter (and she had been in two or three by the time our son was sixteen), we kept trying to find and address whatever it was that was wrong with our family and never believed it could be the "recreational" drug use our son was engaged in. (We put all these pieces together later. At the time it was happening, our daughter was so broken, I had seen and been betrayed by that first therapist, my FOO was hot on the track, our marriage was falling apart...and then, our son fell.)

And we never believed it was drugs.

And I know you cannot believe it could be drug use for your son either Copa, but because of our experiences, I believe so strongly that your son loved you (like mine did) that you loved your son and raised him beautifully (like I did) and that your son is behaving the way he is now because of what the chemicals he is using are doing to his brain.

I believe this now, finally, about my own son too Copa. But I could only see it as, within the past years, I have posted on P.E. (I have been on P.E. twice. I found the site initially for our son.)

It began with SWOT's post on adult kids who verbally abuse their parents and that was in this time when I was here for our daughter.

That is where I began to believe it is the drug use ~ not a failure of mother love, not a divorce in the child's history. (D H and I were not divorced.) I was where you are for so long a time, Copa. For years. D H believed it was the way I'd been babying his son. So, he took over when, with the other parents here behind me, I finally demanded that our son go into treatment or he would get nothing from us.

That is the broccoli story.

Our son had stopped using, come home, put his life in great order and fallen again I don't know how many times by that time. Whenever he lived on his own and bad things happened, we brought frozen chicken and frozen broccoli and pasta and cheese and milk and eggs and butter and bread and coffee and dog food.

I thought he liked broccoli.

But man, he hated that broccoli.

Whatever. I am getting off track. I am still grieving the loss of my son. I loved him, very much. I liked him, too.

He was so totally cool, Copa.

He dressed so well we thought he might actually be gay.

And I am very sad for what happened to him, and to all of us.

***

Anyway. I asked D H about how a boy loves his mother. He said: "Moms just love you no matter what. Whether you've done something wrong or not, they still love you. You are a hero for your mom, you want to be her hero." And then, D H said: "Unless there is something she wants you to do for her and you don't do it."

Do you see your son here Copa.

And that my son came to hate me for that thing from which he could not tear himself away. That I am the drug. That he would degrade himself for. And he hates me for it.

Again Copa, I so strongly believe this is not a way to think that will bring solution. Again, from D H: "Sons are meant to leave their mothers. They do. They want to. Moms are meant to be home, cooking and doing whatever it is they do all day."

They leave us behind, Copa.

They are meant to.

When our children are way off the chart and we cannot say why, and when there is drug use, however minimal we believe it to be, it is the drug use that is the problem, Copa. I believe this now, finally, with every fiber of my being. Not the mother. Not the love. Not even the messed up way our family had been limping along with daughter in one treatment or another and me in a bread bag pretty much, would my son have lost his life the way he has if drug use was not involved and had not taken him into addiction.

I could not see it either, Copa.

You will be the only one who can know how your son was as a child. The things you are describing for us here ~ primarily the hostility and the viciousness of the manipulation ~ tell me drug use over time.

I can only know my own story and extrapolate it to yours, Copa.

If it was something in the way you loved him, identify and change it.

If it is something else, insist on treatment as a condition of interacting with you. You have no other power than that he loves you. That, and the misery of his life in this time.

I wish with all my heart that I had done that, Copa.

I am just very, very lost and sad in all of this. And trying to find my footing and then my way.

We are right here, Copa. I always say this, but it is so true: We have been where you are, SWOT and me and all the parents here. You see the new parents come in Copa, so sad and broken, so sure these terrible things happening to their children have to do with the way they loved them.

I know you love him, Copa.

You are stronger now than when you first came to us. Unless we are honest, we cannot examine and define and put things into proper perspective and it is crucially important that we do so.

You are doing so well, Copa.

We are right here, SWOT and me and all of us.

Cedar
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Whenever he lived on his own and bad things happened, we brought frozen chicken and frozen broccoli and pasta and cheese and milk and eggs and butter and bread and coffee and dog food.

I thought he liked broccoli.
As long as I live, Cedar, I will never forget the broccoli. Never, ever did I understand the importance of this maligned vegetable (of which we eat our fair share.)

Remember George HW Bush, with broccoli? Or was it Ronald Reagan? One of the two.

Who knew? Your son did. It's broccoli's fault. All of it.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I asked D H about how a boy loves his mother. He said: "Moms just love you no matter what. Whether you've done something wrong or not, they still love you. You are a hero for your mom, you want to be her hero." And then, D H said: "Unless there is something she wants you to do for her and you don't do it."

Do you see your son here Copa.
Thank you, Cedar. Yes I do. And thank D H for me, too, please.
For years. D H believed it was the way I'd been babying his son.
That is what M thinks.
our son began using cocaine at 16. He was working at one of the finest restaurants in our city.
I have hesitated to say this because it may be misunderstood.

Restaurants are rife with drug use. I put myself through University as a waitress. Of course there had been Bennies (little white pills, with a cross hatch--a type of Methamphetamine) at College. Students used them to stay up all night for finals and the like.

But in the restaurant there were people who dealt drugs and were truly addicted. I began to use them, too. I would stay up for days on end and sleep for 2 or 3 days on end.

I know it is not the same Meth. After all this was maybe almost 45 years ago. But it is so easy for a kid to get caught up. I stopped. I began to drink heavily, too, in those years. I stopped that too. But if somebody has the gene, it is very difficult to do so. While my Dad was an addict, I somehow was able to escape.
I am still broken-hearted, Copa.

He was the coolest, sweetest, funniest, kindest kid.
My son was like this. He always struggled to stay on task at school and had all of the traits of an ADHD-type kid. I am sure he did not have the strengths of your son, the capacity to be a leader, but he has his own gifts. He was tremendously thoughtful (I do not know whether to use past or present tenses here.) A naturally gifted scholar. Tremendously articulate. Interested in all things. He would have been the most gifted professor.

When he was 14 or so, he became fanatically interested in Capoeira, the Brazilian martial art/dance. That was when he taught himself Portuguese. His Mestre took him under his wing, and they went together on a tour of Brasil. It was the best of times for him.

Had he stayed with the sport, had I stayed put and allowed him to stay with this Mestre, perhaps things would have played out differently. It was not just me that thought my son was a good kid. Worth the time. Worth it as a person.

That was when we began to travel with earnest. I needed that for myself. How did I know what was to be with my child? Or maybe I chose for myself. I do not know.

My son in these years was not oppositional. He was not disrespectful. No problems with conduct. No stealing.

Sweet and loving. Our life was like a road trip. I moved for work every 2 or 3 years. I cut him up. I made him laugh so.

Somebody told me it was because I did not keep him stable enough. That I should have just stayed put. Everybody feels so free to comment upon what I did wrong.

Gypsys move. Military families move. I moved, too.

Cedar, do you think it is an option to not even speak with him unless he re-enters treatment?

It is all so hard. Because I really have no relationship with my son, now, at all. If I do not tolerate him being aggressive and hostile...and do not enable him...and do his bidding. I have no relationship with my beloved son at all.

M is home now. All is better, usually, when he is home.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I am coming to believe that all of this soul searching and laying it all out by eviserating myself is a mistake. It is what it is. I was not a bad mother. I am a normal person. I did not do what your Mother did. My son is not like your brother.
Good. I hope you were not insulted. I did not mean to insult you.

Copa, you did nothing wrong. As I've said before, your son has so many issues to deal with that happened before you even met him that it is not the same as if you had given birth to him...even then a father who has never seen his kid or raised him can have a kid he doesn't even care about turn out to be just like him due to DNA.

It is the deciding factor.

You did not mold him to be who he is. He did. His DNA did.

You WERE a good mother. I am sure t he drugs have a lot to do with it too. Cedar is right about how that changes somebody. Another factor.

You are good and loving. Not everything makes sense in life. I'm learning that as we go along here and try to figure out why. Usually we can guess, but we will never know and sometimes those we talk about don't really know.

Hugs and hopes for a peaceful night.
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Cedar, do you think it is an option to not even speak with him unless he re-enters treatment?

You will come to your own decision about this, Copa. My take: Talk to your child, your son, this person you love like you will never love again, every opportunity you have. Talk to him like his mother: Do this for me. Become the man I raised you to be. You can beat this. You can do this. You have a purpose in this world. You are here for a reason. I love you. Call me soon. I am following this course of action because I love you and I believe this will help us both. Addiction is a terrible thing and I am so sorry this happened to you and to me. I wanted (whatever it is) for us. For you, and for me. You are my son. I love you. You can do this. Do this for me.

It is not about what he says back, Copa. Maybe this is the time we have to love them from a bottomless heart. Your son must respect you if he is to respect himself. You are the standard setter. You are the mother. If you allow him to treat you badly he will because of the addiction. The addiction is the enemy. Not your son. Not you. The addiction will try to come between you. Be stronger. Be sure and steady and strong. Treatment. Another chance. A million chances and one will take.

D H is returning.

I am sneaking this post.

:O)

Cedar

For heaven's sake. I went to all the trouble of sneaking out here to make this post last night and didn't hit "send".

Here it still is this morning.

I will post it now.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I still feel a great deal of guilt for asking her if her life was more important than mine and wanting her to leave my house for that two month period.

She had come to dominate me night and day.

There was no dignity there for either of us.

I was the living dead.

She did not see it or care.

So looked at that way, I had to speak up. I told her the truth. It was the truth that my dying so that she could live was not a suitable arrangement.

This dovetails with my despair about my son. While I know he is behaving intolerably to us, I seem unable to grasp for more than a moment or an hour, that I am worth sticking up for.

Could it be less an issue of self worth Copa than that your mom's and your son's behaviors were and continue to be so outrageous that you didn't know then and you don't know now what to do?

Could it be that, like me, your belief that they love you prevents you from pulling the pieces together and seeing the coherent whole for what it is?

I'm sorry, Copa: Could it be that, as is true for my mother and my sister too, your mom and your sister never had the capacity to be other than they are? That they were never who, in your kindness, you believed them to be? Could it be Copa that in the misery of his addiction, your son is not who himself, either?

Just after breakfast one day, our son showed up out of the blue demanding money for a vet bill. He had the worst woman imaginable with him...someone alot like the meth head grandma your son is with today, Copa.

He brought her to our house.

Where daughter was visiting and where our grands were watching Spongebob. And so many weird, inexplainable things happened, copa and it was unbelievable and you know what I did?

I made breakfast again.

Like an automaton of a person who completes actions that paint the picture: Normal.

I just kept stumbling over the hell that was happening and kept getting more and more awful and...I made breakfast. For the second time that morning.

?

In much of the posting I did in the beginning of our decision to heal, I was bearing the guilt of my mother's (or of my sister's) actions. I could not understand why they did what they did. I could not see the win in it. I could not believe what was true about them (which is that my mom likes to play hurtful games and my sister is unstable), so I didn't.

I just didn't believe it. Denial and the river, right? Instead, I wrapped myself up in ten thousand veils to conceal the truth: that all these bad things I had taken emotional responsibility for, all the times I chose to try harder, to see with compassion, to forgive the past ~ all those things could not change the one true thing at the heart of my relationship to my mom and to my sister: they love me with a poisonous, waspish kind of love, if they even love me at all.

I believed I was wrong; that I'd handled it wrong, that I could have been kinder. That I should have stood up. On and on it went, Copa. Now that I am seeing correctly for perhaps the first time, the broken, disparate pieces are flying together.

Remember when I would post I could not understand the win, for them.

For them, this is the win.

Well, blow me over with a feather.

It was never my intention that it be like this, Copa and SWOT, anymore than it was yours. This is what we were given. Just like it is with our kids, if this could be fixed, our moms and our sisters and brothers would have been television evangelists preaching the Way today.

They're not. Like us, they are trapped in a hell of their own making.

***

Could it be that the day to day reality of life with your mom in your home become what it was because your mother was determined to have it so? You were trapped, Copa. You had decided to bring her home. There was an end date coming.

Your mom got to do whatever she wanted with that.


What she did Copa, what she created, that it almost killed you to complete the task you'd set yourself and that it is weakening you now to know how hard a thing it was for you to do that...is what your mom wanted for you.

She did it on purpose Copa, hoping to hurt you.

You need to dispose of those ashes, Copa.

For the sake of your son, for the sake of your strength, you need to be able to know you did more for your mother than she ever deserved and let her go. Like me Copa, you can never believe your mom or your sister into loving you. So what, Copa? What you and SWOT and I never once allow ourselves to see is that we are stronger than they are. We don't need them now and we never needed them.
And if we had needed them, and whenever we did need them, for any smallest thing (like to know what kind of food is served at a baptism) they failed us.

And then they laughed!

That is the kind of people they are.

And when we were so destroyed by what happened with our kids, we gave them access to our lives and we should not have.

They are the ones who picked hate.

Not us.

What we did was forgive and move on. It is only when we let ourselves be re-entangled with these women who hate us that we falter, that we begin to question ourselves and our worth. For heaven's sake, they barely functioned at the edges of our radars until our kids were in trouble and we started listening to everyone, anyone, hoping someone could tell us how to address what was happening to our lives.

Copa. You never needed your mom. You never needed your sister. You were vulnerable already because of your son and they leaped, knives flashing.

You took charge.

You did the right thing.

You can never recover that time that you gave them. You can never relive the day your sister celebrated her seeming ascendance over you because like mine, ascending over you has been your sister's only goal for all of her life.

That wasn't arrogance you saw Copa, that was virulent hatred.

SWOT and Copa: We are the persons who betrayed us.

If you look into your hearts, you know that. We twist ourselves so tightly around how it should be, how it must be. We came back to these people, became vulnerable to the supposed safety of the toxic fold because events in our lives had devastated our faith in ourselves and broken us back to the level of the children we'd been raised to believe we were.

For me? Evil. Stupid. Scary person, right? Well, it makes sense that my mom would have been afraid of me. I saw her. I saw her with my own two eyes and I knew what she was doing was wrong.


Well, roar.

:O)

Cedar
 
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Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
I do believe he loved me at one time. That is all I know.

That is all you have to know.

What would his life have been without that?

Without you?

Cedar

If addiction is at the heart of this, which I do believe Copa because that was the case for my own son (Cedar's way of confessing that she does not, after all, know everything and could be mistaken)...if addiction or drug use is at the heart of this, your son's brain is being affected and the only thing that will help any of us is to make them stop using drugs. There is a whole segment of society out there determined that the kids will continue to use them.

Is this a battle a mother cannot win.

We can be destroyed Copa, or we can seek solutions. It is right for us to learn how to survive the pain of it. We are doing that, both here on this thread and in P.E.

It isn't over.

As you posted once about M: "I haven't left you yet."

We haven't left our sons yet, either. We all are stronger than we were; so much stronger than we were when we began this.

SWOT daughter made it back. My daughter, beyond anything I dared hope, is coming back. So...what is the deal with our sons, right?

They need to stand up.


Cedar
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Copa. You never needed your mom. You never needed your sister. You were vulnerable already because of your son and they leaped, knives flashing.
I remember being told, repeatedly, in Codependents Anonymous, that the only person who can make you happy is yourself. If we look outside of ourselves for that, then we are at the mercy of others to give us happiness.This affected me a lot...allowed me to finally file for divorce (and from what I heard this week from Bart about ex's visit, I am so glad I did file and get one). I used to be a punching bag for everyone. If they were mad at me, I felt like a loser for a month and that isn't much of an exaggeration. One cut off from Mother or Sis and I was sure they were right, in the back of my mind, and it affected me. Why did I let them?

I didn't know any better.

I'm better now. Even our kids can not control our happiness or we will only be as good as they are...
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
Trying to spread the hell.

Not only trying to spread the hell, SWOT. Remember Copa posting about the way her sister acted when their mother was so sick? That was pure hatred. So, I thought back to what I would have to feel for someone before I celebrated, before I insisted, before I freaking latched on to and would never, ever let go of, a mental illness label.


Now, I am thinking back to all the times, to all the things, little and big, that my sister has committed against me.

And when I look at it like that...there they are. So many, so really unbelievably many things. I just can't understand it, can't get the why behind it. But given that I think you two are very fine people and your sisters are doing that exact same thing too...it must be true that I am not hateful.

I must not deserve this treatment.

I never needed her, and I never had what I needed from my mother but look.

Here I am.

:O)

Not just living. (Remember I would always post "I lived.") Living and loving and relishing my time. I wonder how much of their time has been taken up in the pleasure of hatred for me?

I expect it now.

Never vulnerable to them, again.

It is what it is and I accept.

Cedar

And here's the thing, you guys: Who cares?!? For heaven's sake, I've never been comfortable around them and thought it was me. It was them all along!!!

That means?

I am free.
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
If they were mad at me, I felt like a loser for a month and that isn't much of an exaggeration.

We chose love. They did not. That choice was as readily available to them as it was to us. It is a choice they could make today, but either they find themselves incapable or they enjoy finally hating us with such an intensity of verve and vigor at long last that they.will.never. stop. until we are destroyed. I know everyone says we felt so badly about ourselves that we were willing to take anything just to be near them, just to have an identity, just to claim that, like everyone else, we had a mom or a sister, too.

That may not be true.

In secret, that Phil Collins song is just how I feel about watching what my mom did to my brother. I do believe my mom loved me in her way. But her way is not acceptable to me, now. In fact, that Phil Collins song is just how I feel about all of them, if the truth be told, for how they behave, for how they've always behaved but especially, for the way they've behaved since my father's death.

How ripely disgusting; how unbelievably shameful a thing this has been. Like a cluster f*** of great intricacy and unerring precision, not an orifice overlooked.

You guys?

I never said that.

Cedar

Well, okay. I did say it. But why would they choose what they are doing? I know I said I got it now...but I truly don't. Maybe we are the fortunate ones, after all. Who would we be today, had we chosen hatred like that?

Gratitude, instead of that feeling of failure. Instead of that feeling that none of us knew any better, and that I have to try harder.

I tried harder long enough.


:O)
 

Scent of Cedar *

Well-Known Member
This makes me realize that trying to make peace with my mother was not a waste of my time. I did what I felt was right, and that's all that matters.

Clearly, a choice to love.

Contrast that with what was returned to you. Contrast that with how your sister never, ever, stops trying to destroy you.

You are the more fortunate one. Just think, SWOT. The ones who hated might as easily have been us. Copa, the same is true for you. Given the way we were each brought up, we may as easily have chosen to hate.

We did not.

As we complete this quest we set for ourselves, we will remember gratitude for this incredible ability to see and choose love. It must be a gift, or every one would choose it. Hating and resentment and sullen rage are terrible things; are a terrible waste of a life.

Cedar

When we set out, we determined eventually to arrive at compassion for our FOO. Perhaps this is it. The thing we understand that will bring us to our knees in gratitude and that will enable us to stand for ourselves and for them, in compassion.

Not pity, and not hatred, but compassion.

It could so easily have been us.
 
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