Fell off the Warrior Mom Wagon. I need help!!!

[Giulia]

Star and Upal, I agree with your concerns. I agree that dashcat's daughter needs to seek help. I know that it upsets dashcat. My own instability upsetted my mom.

I agree with Star about safety matters. I agree that at 21yo, normally, someone must seek help to get care. I know that you are "your home, your rules". There is a part of truth, of course.
However, I have to disagree with Star on certain points. I know that dashcat's daughter is 21yo, I know she is overage. But then, what do we do when a son/daughter is unable to be safe by himself/herself, not because she wants to make our life a misery, but because she is unable to make a sound judgment ?
Star, I understand and I admire the way you could leave at 16yo, have two full time jobs and pay everything by yourself. I raise my hat for it. But I acknowledge that what worked for you may not work for Dashcat's daughter, nor for dashcat's situation.
Also, as I said before, it is not because services for disabled people are available that dashcat's daughter can access them, nor that it will truly suit her needs.
Dashcat's daughter has a serious problem, we are sure. However, it's not by "your home, your rules" position that we can solve such a problem, at least not accompanied by means to get help. been there done that. I wish your statment were as simple as that, I wish it were the panacea to solve the problem.

What I say about monitoring dashcat's daughter is not "babysitting a 21 yo girl", but in such a situation, I can genuinely be concerned over her safety, over her ability to make sound judgment. So when I am in front of such a situation, I make sure the person is safe. Period.
It is not fighting over "rules are rules ; my home, my rules". My main concern is first and foremost safety and health, and when someone is unable to make a sound judgment, then, she needs an external brain to do it. The same way as I wear a hearing aid for my hearing impairment, or someone wears glasses to see better.
Here, I find normal for dashcat to monitor her daughter not because "she overdue babysits her", but because her daughter is such a situation that she is not safe. She is not safe because of her illness.
So to finish my opinion, I agree with Star about dashcat talking to her daughter and her concerns about safety, and that her daughter needs medical care. It is not such a question of "my home, my rules", but a question that her daughter needs help to stay safe. That she is concerned because she loves her daughter.

By experience, I know better and better how to manage my own periods of instability, and they become rarer and rarer over the time. But I still know that there are periods when I am unable to stay safe by myself. Again, it's not a question "my home, my rules", but a question of staying safe.
I know better to ask help to someone else when I feel I am becoming unsafe, but there are residual moments that I am not able to stay safe by myself.
Keeping me safe is not "undue babysitting because I lack willpower", but because I need this external brain in these moments to keep me safe.
Not all the time, but at some moments.

It is not a question of chronological age. Here, the question is developmental age. Here, I am more concerned over the daughter's safety, because here, broken rules are a question of safety for her daughter (and the mother).

 

[BusynMember]

Dashcat, I think you got excellent advice on both sides. I also know that there is nothing you can do if she won't get help. Even though she is living with you, she is not acting safe so this is a real challenge.

Whatever you choose to do, you know you have us in your corner. We can't keep our grown kids safe, whether or not they live with us because they will do what they want to do. Another thing...we can not live forever. Then what? I am a big fan of the grown child, if necessary, learning how to get help on her own. At the end of the day, she will have to do just that...it will be up to her. Better at her age than at 35 or 45 when she has not learned to deal with a difficult life on her own. But if you want to allow her to stay there, I understand that too. It is very hard to let go...very hard.

As far as the boyfriend/girlfriend at 21, I would probably allow it, but NOT if it was a different one every night or if the adult child was not responsible. However, in my house, I am not uncomfortble with sex between consenting adults at 21, even if it is my own child. My grown kids sometimes had their SO's stay with them under my roof.



However, I am a big believer in, my house, my rules. You have to decide what you are comfortable with. It is not up to any of us. (((Hugs)))!!!

 

[dashcat]

Thank you, all, for taking the time to post your thoughts, suggestions, support and opinions. I read some yesterday, but didn't have time to respond. I did, however, have time to think and I've been able to take some of what many of you have written and apply it to my situation. Most of all, this is a place where I can come to with a question and I know the responses I'm getting are mostly from the perspective of understanding a difficult child. That is huge.

I responded way back on the thread that I thought a curfew was the only answer. But, when she came home, I decided it might serve me well to ask and listen in the beginning and talk later (this came from a post on my chore thread, thank you!!!).

She said that the party scene is not an every night thing with her but when she is out, the party doesn't even get started until around 11:00 or 12:00. She pointed out that she is being responsbile about not drinking and driving (Mr. Ostrich is a volunteer firefighter, so she's heard all the ugly stories).

Yes, I could draw the line and say that she's underage and should not be drinking at all ..but I know that's unrealistic. I hope and pray she does not carry drinking to excess, but I have zero control over that. She is not drinking in my home and, with the exception of that one time, does not return home drunk.

There was a high school senior from the community who was killed on the day of his prom several years ago. He'd been at a friend's the night before and called his mom to say he was staying the night. She knew he'd probably been drinking but said (thinking this was safe) "just make sure you're home early because there's so much to do.." He did spend the night, and left early in the morning. Unfortunately, he was still impaired. He hit a tree and was killed. I did photos of this woman several years ago for an award she was receiving. Her story made both my difficult child and I cry. She now crusades for SADD and she lamented to me that she so wished she had just said "ok", thinking he would have waited until afternoon. I think about her all the time.

difficult child proposed a compromise: Give me 2 nights a week where it is ok for me to either spend the night if I am partying. The other nights I'll either be home, or go out for coffee, movies, whatever but be home at a decent hour. She defined a week as Sunday to Saturday and pointed out that she usually is home by 10:00 most nights when she's not working.

I agreed to try it.

Daisy, she knows that I am very concerned about her sexual behavior. We don't talk about the specifics anymore (as in I don't ask if she's having sex with Tom, Dick or Harriet and she doesn't offer). We did discuss the specifics when she becam sexually active and also when she had her internet dude flings. She knows how I feel and I know I can't stop her.

And Susie and Janet ...you're both right, actually. Yes, she can have sex any time of the day (her first encounter was in the afternoon at Mr. Ostrich's condo when he was at work), but the opportunity for all sorts of bad behavior, including excesses in drug/alcohol use and sexual behavior related to drugs and alcohol, increases as the night goes on. I agree that a curfew is necessary in many cases. it might prove to be in mine, but I'm giving her this chance to propose a compromise and stick to it. Janet and Up, I respect your decision to allow overnights but it is just not for me. Maybe some day far down the road, but right now.

I think it was Susie who posted about a concern about difficult child sneaking people into the house when I'm sleeping. This is not likely. I wake up when her car pulls in the driveway and she knows it. I don't think even she would take that risk. As to her having J here when I'm sleeping ... again, maybe someday ...but this kid has only been in the picture a few weeks. I am very careful about living alone and who I will allow here and when. When difficult child had her most recent internet fling, they were in a hotel just over a mile from here. I took her house key (this all happened very fast, so I knew she hadn't had one made) and I haven't given it back. We have a two bay garage and she uses the opener to get in and out. If there' any sign of strangers being here, she's out (that is a definate deal breaker) and I'll reprogram it.

Guilia, yes, she is unstable. But, like many difficult child's, she appears fine and is very, very, very skilled at masking her instability. I can no more force her to see a psychiatrist or a therapist than I can will the sun to rise in the west. She flat out refuses to be assessed and, if I drag her there, I will appear to be the crazy one. Sad, but true.

Star, I must remind myself regularly that I can only control what happens under this roof. Part of the thinking behind the two night compromise is to give her that two night window of freedom, with the five day reality of "you still live with your mom".

If I didn't address you directly, please know I read and appreciated every word. Having her back after such a long period - and a period of such change for both of us - continues to be a big challenge. I'm learning the ropes and am so glad I have all of you to help me cope.

Dash

edited to add: Midwest, we were posting at the same time. Thanks for being in my corner. One of the reasons I stated I wasn't ready for the boyfriend overnights here is that I fear it WOULD turn into a different person ...not ever night...but with great frequency. And, as I stated in this post, it may open the door to internet strangers. Just too scary.

 

[Giulia]

Guilia, yes, she is unstable. But, like many difficult child's, she appears fine and is very, very, very skilled at masking her instability. I can no more force her to see a psychiatrist or a therapist than I can will the sun to rise in the west. She flat out refuses to be assessed and, if I drag her there, I will appear to be the crazy one. Sad, but true.

I understand your concern.

However, I think that if you move on the perspective, you can get great results.
The idea is not forcing to get her assessed, but making her want to be assessed. Making her want to do what you want.
Sounds impossible ? Not as much as you may imagine.

First, telling her as much as possible that you are concerned on how unwell she appears. Like "I noticed that .... and that .... I am concerned about you. Can I do something for you ?". It may not work right away, but it is a first step.
Just make her understand that you love her even when she is unstable.

Let the door open about talking when she feels unwell. She may mask her disability because she feels ashamed, even in front of you.
Tell her that if she feels unwell, she can come and tell you. Especially when she says that she feels fine whereas she does not.
Don't insist but keep the door open for discussion.
I am sure that she will come earlier or later to tell you that she needs help.

In this time, she may be reluctant to see a psychiatrist/therapist. She may fear the stigma.
In this case, you can help her by comparing with a physical disease, like "if you had diabetes, you wouldn't wonder twice if you need or not to see a doctor". It often helps relieve the feeling of being guilty.


MWM, do whatever you want. Yes, a person needs to learn to ask help. But not all know right away how to and yes, it is not a quick fix. I wish it were, but it is not.
It is your feelings, your shoes. I acknowledge that we have different values, and that we'll never agree each other. It is just sad we come to such a useless argument.
Now, I will stop the fight with you. You wish that difficult child finds themselves with difficult children, parents with parents. It is your choice, and I cannot control it. ITOH, it is a shame that we have to put walls each other just because of "parents have to be with parents". I cannot prevent you from having such opinions, and I cannot prevent myself to believe how sad it is to argue on such a peculiar issue (parents have to be with parents and children have to be with children).
I wish you the best for the future.

 

[Star*]

Dash,

I think that you have taken all the advice given, listened pro-actively and knowing your own daughter with your own life experiences the most as your card catalogue to draw from - made the most informed decision of what's best to do for you - and I really really like the compromise. Brilliant actually. I'm thinking you never fell off the Warrior Mom wagon. lol. I hadn't forgotton that you were a photographer. I still have hanging in my hall my very own dashcat original framed in a lovely black and silver adorned frame that one I received with it's own orignial poem and I cherish it. Hauntingly beautiful. When we lost Steven? I'll never know if he'd been drinking because he'd burned alive behind the wheel but people that saw him moments before he veered off the road (for unknown reasons) said he'd been fighting verbally with his Uncle (who also died in the accident) -along with another boy. Left a lot of questions - I can't ever get answers to. I'm sure your ex has seen way more than his share of tragedy in his line of work. Tragic doesn't begin to cover it does it?

I'm hoping the babysit comment wasnt' hurtful. I thought about that last night and it rolled in myhead like - Well you could have come up with something a LOT nicer than that Star. Sheesh - all the words you could have picked and that was the one you gave? I mean we are here to UPLIFT each other, and I think in the heat of the moment on occasion we try so hard to make each other see in passion what we are trying to say it comes out very, very wrong, and ugly. Then we only end up hurting the other - and not making a valid point AT ALL...but rather rubbing each others nose in it - so to speak. My choice of word today after slapping my head for being so crass would have been - MONITORING - NOT...babysitting. Please accept my heartfelt apology - because I only truly made myself look like a jerk. Not my intention. When you can forgive me - I hope you will do so. You're an excellent Mother, you have a super ginormous heart. you have never given anything but loving and helpful advice to any of us hear and I am glad that you are a part of this board....
shame on me.

THanks for reading if you got this far. Wouldn't blame you if you didnt.
Much love - from my heart - I'm truly sorry I really have no excuse but ten- codes, for five agencies and such are really killing me - and .....well that's my problem.
Star

 

[tiredmommy]

Dash~ My family lived in a small city that was pretty close to a larger metropolitan hub. Most of my friends moved to the larger city but I stayed home with my medically disabled father when I was around your difficult child's age. I. of course, had my social life in the bigger city. My father and I had an understanding: I was to let him know if I wasn't coming home after work and if I was staying overnight at a friend's house. Even though I wasn't a big drinker, it was in my best interests to be on the road when all the bars were closing.

 

[BusynMember]

Dash, trust me, I only allowed it with my son's fiance. Strange girls every night wouldn't work in my house. I think your situation is quite different!

 

[DammitJanet]

Dash, edit

 

[dashcat]

MM and Janet, I get it. I really do. One of the many things that having a difficult child has taught me, is that there is no one way. There's no recipe. And I've learned not to judge when someone's choice is different than mine. We are all doing what we feel is the right thing in our one - completely unique - situation. And, Janet, I didn't think for a second you were suggesting I install a revolving door on my house -lol!

Star,
Absolutely no offense taken to the use of the term "babysitting". i never take offense to a post or reply made with the intention of offering help, which yours clearly have been.

We're all in this together and I'm not going to get hung up on semantics. I know where your warrior hearts are!
Dash

 

[DammitJanet]

Well Dash, you could pay your mortgage with that revolving door!

 

[dashcat]

Well that's one way to look at it, Janet! Too funny...