"Friends"...why is it so hard to get away from them?

[BusynMember]

Lil, I truly believe they respect us more when we demand to be treated well. I have never had to go no contact with my kids. When Julie was doing drugs, she was still basically a very good person and I stayed in touch as much as I could. She was angry. But you know what? She got over it. She knew why I did what I did.

37 has been on "low contact" many times. As long as he can be a kind, respectful person we can talk every day. If he can't, well, I give him a "time out." If he gets angry, I don't really care. He has to figure that out. The ten years he was married I almost never heard from him because his life was stable and he had his wife telling him what decisions to make. As soon as she left him, he suddenly came back because he needs somebody to tell him what to do, although he won't listen and will get abusive.

My son can not live with me ever again. Actually, I feel it is best if grown children live elsewhere from their parents. I would let my other kids come back short-term if a catastrophe left them homeless, but 37 can be dangerous. He can not ever live with me again. The distance has been golden. He used to always call me with various reasons to take him to ER before that.

 

[BusynMember]

To Headlights Mom: After I kicked out 37, his father, who had more money than me, paid for dive motels for him to stay at, rotating them depending on the "specials" of the week. It wasn't cozy, but it was a roof and it was not MY roof so I was ok with it. Father and I are divorced and don't tell one another what to do.

Although I was the one who told my son he couldn't ever come back if he left (he actually chose to leave probably thinking I'd let him come back) I often went to visit him and bring McDonalds and talk to him. The difference was, he did not demand it or call to say, "I'm huuuuuuuuuuuuuungry." I did it on my own terms. For the first time since this kid had been born almost, my life didn't revolve around his quirky and demanding wants and needs. If I didn't want to visit, I didn't.

My younger daughter was much calmer with him gone. Him being gone was my main concern. I didn't want him in our space where he could break things, steal, harm anyone or anything or threaten us in any meaningful way. When my ex moved back to town and bought a two bedroom condo so he'd have a place to live, he was abusive to my ex, even shoving him hard and he has always been very sickly. But...it was not me, at least. I never told his dad to do this, although he called me to complain about 37 all the time and ask, "Why is he LIKE this?" He was miserable. Yet he put up with it. He was living in fear until difficult child moved out to get married. To this day, he still talks about those days. Oh, well.

"Not my circus. Not my monkey." I love that, but do I have it backwards...lol.

 

[GuideMe]

Thanks for accepting my apology Lil. I appreciate it. I read most of the current thread. Maybe just do only temporary no contact. Sounds like his friends are real problem, no matter if he is the leader or follower. I think all of them are really manipulating all parties involved. The question is , what are you going to do now and in the future? Is he never allowed to come back home, or are you waiting to see if he learns his lesson and then thinking about letting him come home again? I think it's really good if you all decide that now, so this way, it doesn't lead him on either and he can act accordingly. Maybe you all already did tell him he could never come home again, I am just going off the assumption that you didn't. The important thing is, no matter what happens, are you going to let him do it on his own? If so, be fair and let him know that now and mean it or else he is always going to think "my mom will always help me. Yeah, she might get mad and throw me out of the house, but she'll get over it eventually". Trust me, they will do anything, suffer through anything, just to have a little bit of support from you.

 

[GuideMe]

Jabby, I can't find the post now to quote it, it was about the one where he called you to ask for advice. But think of it like this, when was the last time he asked you for advice? Really, when was it? He seems to have had this same situation going on for a while now with his friends, so why all the sudden now he asks you for advice about it? Don't get me wrong, his concerns might be real about his J-1 following him (which he knows will work to his advantage because he does't have to actually lie about that), but I think reaching out to you was a ploy. He knows he is going to have to talk to you , butter you up and whatever he can to get back into the house or get whatever support that he can from you guys.

 

[Jabberwockey]

Jabby, I can't find the post now to quote it, it was about the one where he called you to ask for advice.

This is on page one of this thread near the bottom. And he has NEVER asked me for advice, not even this time. Sorry, I misspoke on that. Point is, when he wants a sympathetic ear he asks for his mom because he knows that even when I dont call him on it, I recognized his crap. While I acknowledge the possibility that he was trying to play us it obviously didnt work since he got nothing from us. And we've made it very plain that J-1 moving into the shelter changes absolutely nothing. We havent told him that this is forever but we have made it clear that it was long term as I reminded him that the contract on his phone was up in June and we would be terminating it right after. We dont know how long it will be for as we havent really talked about it yet and have no intention of doing so until we get our heads wrapped around it. I can assure you that if he gets kicked out of the shelter tonight he will be finding his own way and it will not involve coming back to our house.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and support but I have to close this now and actually get some work done.

 

[GuideMe]

My time is coming soon, end of december my lease will be up. I have no choice but to move. Where me and difficult child end up, no one knows, but my 100% goal is to not live with her and to do what MWM does with 37, how she handles him. I really don't want my daughter to live with me ever, ever again. I want to do what I want to do now, that sounds so strange and foriegn to me. I want to go back to work, work two jobs, put away savings. I just want to be released and know that she is doing well. However, if she doesn't do well, I will always help her as much as I can but on my terms and I can only do that if she doesn't live with me. We will see. I don't want to speak too soon about anything, but I think I subconsciously sabotaged myself so she can't live with me. Little to no money, moving far away to a city she absolutely despises and would't move back to in a million years. Pray for me, because she is just not getting it.

 

[GuideMe]

he was trying to play us it obviously didnt work since he got nothing from us

Not yet, he knows these things take time. Little by little

 

[pasajes4]

Every person moves at their own pace. I see two people who are learning to parent by being on the same page. Their child has just experienced the first real wrinkle in his universe. None of this happens with the snap of the fingers. There is not one person on this board who has not faltered, backslid, and had to start over. It is a process.

 

[SuZir]

One thing to keep in mind, there is a world of difference between very little contact, very limited contact or even very sporadic contact and no contact. Emotionally it is a very different thing to hear, that someone tells you for example that they feel your relationship right now is not good for either of you and they think it is best you are not interacting quite so much right now and please call again when X and till that send a sms every now and then to tell you are alive. Even if that X is something big, like when you have been three months sober, or are in treatment or have found a job and are out of streets is fundamentally different that when that someone calls it quits, tells you they are changing numbers and you are not welcome to contact them any more. It is well possible that also very limited contact leads to very limited contact in future, but no contact is almost guaranteed to leave an ugly, difficult to heal wound to the relationship.

When my difficult child left home situation was so, that we actually needed to impose that he had to keep contact (he was a minor so we had some control over it) and those 'at least 15 minutes, every Sunday' calls home formed a habit, but last winter he did limit a contact to us significantly. He was angry with me over something I kept insisting, and decided he didn't want to talk to us, but he did keep that contact. He called every Sunday, first time told me he was not going to talk with me and just sat there quietly that 15 minutes before hanging up. After that it was couple months even without telling me he wasn't talking to me. We just sat that fifteen minutes quietly listening each other breath (okay, I told him some news from home time to time and told him I loved him when that 15 minutes was about to be up.) But as childish as that was from him, to our relationship it was something totally different than if he would have told he calls it quits with us. I can also imagine, that my all contact to him could be a text once a week: "You are loved. Take care! Mom" But even something that minimal is totally different than no contact emotionally.

And when one contemplates 'no contact' with their loved one, one has to understand, that it really is extremely hurtful to other party. Really hard blow and changes that relationship for good. And one can not assume that they can end the period of 'no contact' when they feel like that and re-establish contact. I have known few people aside of myself who have ended up with 'no contact' with their loved one, and I have both been the one who initiates the no contact period and the one who was ditched. None of the situations I know about has the person who was subjected to 'no contact' been willing to re-establish the contact when the other party has wanted to, not right away at least. When you are ditched like that, you can even only start to consider, if you want that person back to your life, after they start to re-connect with you. And it takes time, often a lot of time, to think it through and decide if that person is worth the hurt they have caused you, if you can handle them back in your life after what feels like awful betrayal, and if they simply are worth the heartache they are suspect to cause you again. In my relationship with my troubled loved one he ditched me first and when he wanted to re-connect it take quite a long time before I was willing to even consider it. So when I later came to the conclusion I had to remove him from my life, I was acutely aware of the hurt I was causing and that I really wouldn't have any automatic option or right to re-established contact if I would one day feel like that. We have to this date gone back and forward between no contact and having a contact. Currently we do have a contact, but those 'no contact'-decisions from both sides hang heavily between us and I doubt we will ever even dare to approach the topic, nor will we ever trust each other after all that hurt and betrayal even though I really love him and he loves me.

When one decides to go to no contact with their loved one, it would be utter foolishness to fantasize that the other party will be waiting, if they ever decide to try to re-connect. They may be, but just as likely they may be totally done with you and not want to have any contact ever again. I'm not saying that 'no contact' wouldn't be a best or only available course of action for some and in some situations, but it does come with a price and don't try to fool yourself in that one. If you are not ready to pay that price, do not go there.

 

[Lil]

I think I was getting a little defensive here for a bit, then my husband and I had a chat on the phone and I realized we need to remember that, while I'm sure you all have our best interest at heart, you folks have different experiences of your own that color your opinions, as does everyone, including Jabber and me.

Our son has stolen from us, more than once. It hurts. But while we aren't wealthy, it wasn't as though it was financially crippling. He's 19, not 40. It wasn't thousands of dollars. He was warned when he came home this summer and when we realized he'd done it again, we took action. He's screwed up, but he's not a sociopath. He lies, but he doesn't try to turn it into being our fault somehow. He doesn't throw up blame on us. He's not going to financially devastate us or leave us homeless.

He's got his share of anger issues, but we're not afraid of him. He's never shown violence toward us and we would never have tolerated it if he had. For all his tantrums and punching of doors and walls, he's never made us fear for our own well being. When we told him to pack and leave, he did so quietly and apologetically and never even tried to argue about it.

He loves his pot and such, but he's not doing meth or shooting heroin. He's not stealing our liquor. We're not coming home to someone passed out on the floor or in a drug induced frenzy.

My point is, we don't have to cut all contact to protect ourselves, either financially or physically. Putting him out has been hard and it will continue to be hard. But we are not in the same situation that some of you have found yourselves in...not yet at least...and we hope that having to be out on his own and learning to deal with his own problems and finding his own job and seeing his counselor (or not...all his choice except for being out of the house), will be sufficient to nip things in the bud before he morphs into something worse. In our case, we feel leaving him mostly alone to work things out on his own, while letting him know we do love him and this is hard on us too, but we don't trust him and we won't tolerate his behavior anymore, is best. If we want to give him a warm coat or feed him a meal, we will, on our terms - not his. We've told him before, that we owe him nothing; what we do for him we do out of love. Perhaps having those things be rare and special gifts will finally get that through his head.

The lines of communication will remain open, but with a healthy dose of skepticism about what he says to us being on the level. Where we go from there will in large part be up to him and what he does. How long he's out is up in the air. The shelter lets you stay 90 days. He should be able to get a job and save up enough money to get his own place. We'll see how he does. He's not coming back any time soon, we have time to discuss and decide.

Again, the point of even starting this thread, which I've regretted more than a few times in the last day, was to just kind of vent about how hard it is for him to get away from these "friends" of his and to express my worry that putting him out might have driven him right back to people he was trying to distance himself from. I really wasn't even looking for opinions on what to do about it, because there's nothing I can do. But it was nOccupational Therapist (OT) the point to rehash whether we'd done the right thing in putting him out of the house or if we should do more. I think we've done the right thing. We're going to continue to try to.

I really do thank you all for your thoughts and willingness to offer advice and counsel from your own perspectives.

 

[GuideMe]

Just a quick by note, for whatever reason, I don't know why, but I thought he was in his twenties. I don't know why I thought that being as though it clearly says 19 on you bio. My bad Lil.

 

[Lil]

Our son has stolen from us, more than once. It hurts. But while we aren't wealthy, it wasn't as though it was financially crippling. He's 19, not 40. It wasn't thousands of dollars.

Reread this and thought it sounded like I was minimizing the seriousness. I'm totally not. I'm just pointing out that while it's serious and a major betrayal, it is not necessarily the same as what some of you may have experienced. $7.00 or $700, it was more than we were willing to tolerate.

 

[dstc_99]

Lil,

You are a smart woman with a smart husband and most likely a smart kid who is screwing up right now. The best you can do is make and keep healthy boundaries. Like you I chose never to go no contact with my difficult child. On the other hand I mostly waited for her to contact me. She didn't want to talk to me and I didn't have the energy to care at that point. When she called she called. When she didn't she just didn't. That was what was healthy for me. difficult child quickly learned that I wasn't going to call and beg for her love or beg for mercy from her reign of terror. LOL

You and Jabber are chosing to maitain contact with your difficult child because it is what you feel is right. Considering he is your son I would say you both know best. difficult child needs to make these changes and there is no reason not to support him. As long as the changes are for the good then why wouldn't you. You are his parents and even though he has made you very upset you still love him. He is making the choices now and if it is a choice you support there is nothing wrong with supporting him with a ride or some clothes or a meal. None of those things are going to kill him. They don't put severe stress on you or your marriage. So why not?

Why not----- is because either he uses your help against you or begins to demand things you aren't comfortable giving. In this case difficult child isn't doing those things at this time. Should he start then you would need to detach a little further and cut back contact and support. BUT only in a manner that is comfortable and healthy for you. In this case the main thing you are upset about is his friend following him to the shelter and him shifting the friend on to you for support. So you make it clear to difficult child not to do that again or you will be upset. Then you remind him that his friends are his issue and not yours. He needs to develop the strength to deal with them without having mommy play the meanie.

Long story short we give a lot of advice on here. Some of it applies and some of it doesn't. Pick and chose the peices that work for you and your relationship. Keep some of those harsher responses in your memory bank should things deteriorate. You know your son better than anyone here except Jabber. You know his issues so you can take what applies and file away what doesnt.

PS: As for the friend/friends I hope your difficult child finds a way to cut that cord soon.

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, th e vasty, vast majority of us have no intention of going no contact with our kids. You are in the majority here. No contact for a while sometimes happens because THEY go no contact, often when they are steeped in drug, but they come back especially when they get into trouble. Nobody here that I know of is telling you that your son is so terrible that you should never speak to him again. I couldn't do that. Heck, I couldn't even go no contact with my extremely abusive mother...well, I didn't until it was very clear that nothing would help mend the relationship. I tried and tried and tried and it did no good. It is extremely difficult to totally cut off a loved one. I could only do it after I no longer loved the person...and that was due to years of trying to have relationships with people who did not care about ME...my mother and my sister. It is not something any of us expect you to ever do. (And, if anyone cares, I did not miss my mother in the end and no, I don't miss my sister, but I do still sometimes smile at the intermittent good talks we had. The bad outweighed the good, however).

There is an EXTREMELY big difference in setting strong, safe boundaries for yourself and cutting somebody off. It is usually only done to save yourself. You and Jabby are doing well.

Low contact with boundaries can lead to more contact and better contact. Really, my son is so much nicer to me because he WANTS contact and knows we can only speak to one another if he is as nice to me as I am to him. So we actually speak more often. Not allowing them to live with us or have our money or abuse our time/space is different from a total cut off. I have easy child adults. They don't expect much of us and have their own lives. When they call it is pleasant and friendly and very special. When we get together it is fun and rewarding. I know how it is supposed to be. I know how it CAN be. I have my easy child kids wondering why I don't cut off my son. I tell them, "I don't like a lot of what he has done to me and to you, but he is still my son and I chose to talk to him." We have acknowledged amongst ourselves that my relationship with him is not as gratifying as it is wieth them, due to his own choices, but I never lie and tell them I want no contact with him, even though I do concede he can be a jerk, which is no surprise to them. My very precious girls have chosen no contact and, especially Julie has very good reasons. Sonic remembers the 37 who actually adored him at one time and they talk when 37 remembers to contact him.

Lil, this is not a place where we discourage parents from talking to their kids. It is a safe place to find ways amongst one another to deal with our troubled adult children, some who are very mean to us and have cut US off. We have different situations, family lives, amounts of other children and personalities. We are different ages. Yes, that matters. In your 40s you are far more up to crapola than in your 60s. Been there/done that/wore the T-shirt of the 40's with a troubled grown child, the 50's with a troubled grown child (it changed) and now the 60's (I am at a point where I want peace and little conflict and that affects how I interact with 37). You have more energy and patience, I think, the younger you are. At age 61, a nd (knocking on wood) still in very good health, I want different things than I once did. And harmony is huge with me. And, no, none of you know how you will feel about your life or your troubled child as you get older.

I feel sorry for those who choose to do a dangerous, abusive dance once they hit their senior years.We earned our stripes and it's time for our grown kids to start giving back a bit to us, even if it is just being pleasant when they are in our company. Many of our difficult children think we will be around to rescue them forever. It isn't true. They need to learn how to deal with life without us as they will have many years without us.

 

[mom_to_3]

I can certainly understand your mixed, not knowing what to do feelings here. When my difficult child was 16 we could not have her in our home for safety reasons. She never lived at home again. Yes, most people including myself give advice according to their own situations at the time and they don't always jive with what you are going through.

When our difficult child left, we did not see nor speak to her for several weeks. This was for a variety of reasons. She needed to be out of our home for all of our sakes. We had other younger children at home that needed stability and healing. I was devastated and could not have begun to speak to her with the resolve *I* needed to have. Emotionally, I was a wreck! Devastated, hurt, angry, humiliated, you name it, I felt it. Many people here who have not experienced having to have your child leave your home cannot begin to fathom the wide range of emotions a parent feels. You question and blame yourself and feel the need to atone for any perceived wrong you may have done your child. It's a crazy horrible time for a parent. I learned I had to heal on my own, without contact with my difficult child.

Lil, you need not doubt yourself. You are a good enough parent. The type of "love" we have to show our difficult child children many times goes against what our hearts dreamed of. As you know, not all children thrive from the care, love, attention and plans we provided for our children in the manner and time period we expect to see our children evolve.

I was lucky in that I had my family telling me, I was good enough and supporting me and listening to me. I think I probably sucked them dry emotionally! I was also lucky, that they realized my difficult child was not the devil spawned. That helped me keep my perspective as best I could.

I think it's hurtful for others to tell you what you are doing is wrong. As mothers and parents we do our best to care for and love our children to the best of our abilities. Our difficult child's force us to parent in a way that does not come natural. I think the best advice a parent in your situation could get, would be to read codependent no more and the suggestion to meditate how that applies to your situation.

Hugs to both you and your husband for your hurting hearts and may you find the strength to allow your difficult child to become the son you envisioned him to be!

 

[Lil]

Yep. This is exactly what I thought would happen. For a couple days there he was looking positive, then J-1 showed. Hadn't heard from my son in a couple days, but heard from J-1, asking for a ride. I said no, of course. Then later my son called asking for his shaver and some sweats, etc.

Jabber took them and talked to our son a bit. J-1 and he are in a room together, it was all that was available, and my son is miserable and no longer wants to stay at the shelter just because this kid is making him crazy. He uses his phone, smokes his cigarettes, uses my son's cd player and uses up the batteries. If son says no the kid is an a-hole and they literally live two feet from each other so it's darn near impossible to get away from him.

I truly am starting to hate this kid. It was a good set-up until he tagged after. I keep checking to see if he got a warrant over the fine. It would be a Godsend for him to get arrested.

That is so evil of me.

 

[GuideMe]

Yep. This is exactly what I thought would happen. For a couple days there he was looking positive, then J-1 showed. Hadn't heard from my son in a couple days, but heard from J-1, asking for a ride. I said no, of course. Then later my son called asking for his shaver and some sweats, etc.

Jabber took them and talked to our son a bit. J-1 and he are in a room together, it was all that was available, and my son is miserable and no longer wants to stay at the shelter just because this kid is making him crazy. He uses his phone, smokes his cigarettes, uses my son's cd player and uses up the batteries. If son says no the kid is an a-hole and they literally live two feet from each other so it's darn near impossible to get away from him.

I truly am starting to hate this kid. It was a good set-up until he tagged after. I keep checking to see if he got a warrant over the fine. It would be a Godsend for him to get arrested.

That is so evil of me.

That is not evil of you. I am hoping for the same thing. If he does get a warrant, call your local "dog the bounty hunter" and get him. It just amazes me that his friend actually followed him to a homeless shelter. It's so weird and sad, that it I am laughing at the thought. If what you say is really true, that these kids are the leaders and your son is the follower, than I consider what they are doing to him straight up bullying him, no doubt about it. Wow. Just crazy. I hope your son finds the nerve to stand up to him and put him in his place. Hopefully, maybe this will be a true learning experience for him to once and for all, ditch his friends.

 

[Lil]

I know it sounds crazy that anyone would choose a homeless shelter. We'd actually suggested it to J-1 more than once and he wouldn't go...he couch surfed from this cousin to that and friends and other relatives...always finding someone to take him for a while and then getting kicked out after a while. I guess he figured being alone there he wasn't interested, but once my kid was there he went. Crazy. I can't imagine that, but I can't imagine burning my bridges with all my relatives or even being a difficult child to begin with.