From bad to worse...much, much worse.

[Jabberwockey]

Thinking about the other couple thing, not that it really matters. Maybe he "borrowed" a few dollars from them and was found out.

I don't think so. Not yet anyway but I guess its always a possibility. The thing is, if it had been ANYONE besides my son, even the first time when it was only a bag of relatively inexpensive stuff returned to Menards, I would have promptly called the police and they would have never been allowed in my house again.

More than likely, his true personality (well, the one he's had for the last 4 years anyway) is starting to show through and they have realized they don't want him there. Our son said something about her being tired of him following her around like a lost puppy but consider the source and take it with a grain of salt. He makes himself out to be SUPER helpful around their house which is doubtful. He wont even fix himself something to eat unless you force him to, instead preferring to whine at someone until they do it for him.

 

[Tanya M]

More than likely, his true personality (well, the one he's had for the last 4 years anyway) is starting to show through and they have realized they don't want him there.

Boy do I know this one. That is exactly how my son is. He can be so charming and come across like he's the next best thing since sliced bread, then after a while his true nature starts to come out and the people he has "charmed" see him for who he really is. That has been the cycle with my son for a long time. It is really a shame as he has come across some really wonderful people but he always manages to destroy it. I will never understand why he sabatoges himself.

the more I think he WAS fishing for sympathy. But not from us. What better way in his twisted little brain to get sympathy from the people about to kick him out to be able to say he got beat up by the evil step dad.

This very well could be what he was doing. I don't blame you for losing it, it's so hard to maintain your composure and control when a Difficult Child is acting the way he was.

Hopefully after a few days of cooling off you might be able to talk to him to see if you can find out what really was going on.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Kind of academic now I suppose. Since he's a jerk and I hate him.

Yeah...I know...not really. But he really is a jerk.

Ha! You sound like me. I get where you are coming from about the broken family, Lil. But here's the thing: There are all kinds of ways for family to be. You and Jabber are facing challenges you're only just learning to cope with. There's an unbelievability factor associated with it. It was a really, unexpectedly, unimaginably bad night. I think you responded well. It is never wrong to try anything, everything, to save the kids from themselves. There is a kind of honest desperation in it, when things like this happen, that pierces through illusion. I am glad you and Jabber were there for your son, and I am glad the police were there to help you.

And I am sorry the outcome was so croppy.

This is your family.

This is what it looks like. This is what it feels like. Though he is troubled or using or just being a general jerk right now, that is your son.

You are his mother.

Jabber is his father.

That will never change.

It just doesn't look like your family.

Lil? It would be easier if we could just stop loving them. If we could just be all cold-hearted and logical about things.

We get there and he comes out with the couple. (by the way, she's a total cow. Really, if she were attractive that would be one thing, but she's really ugly!)

For me, those feelings revolved around who my kids should have had in their lives instead of who they did have. I will say our son has either stayed out of relationship or has had truly incredible women in his life. There have only been two that he brought home. One of them I still miss and I cherish the one he has created his family with, now.

Hugging her is like hugging an armful of flowers. She is that gentle and kind.
I wonder sometimes (most of the time, actually) what she sees in my son.

Bad Cedar!

There has only been one time when he came here with someone who made no sense. He had fallen very far by that time. After that was over, he talked to me about it, once. He could not believe where he'd been, or with whom, either.

But drug use is drug use, and everything it touches is destroyed. Families and moms and sons, too.

I think what happened Lil is that, somewhere in the heart of you, you wondered how this woman was able to shelter and assist and interact with your son, how it was that she had taken him in when the time is so short before June and he had lessons you and Jabber were trying to teach him ~ all that stuff gets twisted up, when we are the mom. There is always that desperate sense of time pressure; there is somehow always that utter belief that this is all going to stop.

That it's going to be alright, and we all will wake up.

I have passionately hated more people I don't know for the sakes of my kids than I can shake a stick at.

I love to hate them, actually.

:O)

Now you know that not only was she not able to reach and to help your son somehow when you could not, but that you were right all along and she had no business interfering in the lessons you and Jabber were trying to teach your son. All that stuff is tumbling over and over inside us when we see the women who have taken our sons in.

The sight of her brought her down to human level in your eyes.

There was a mom who took my son in, once, when he was very young.

You could tell she had zero respect for me.

She too, turned out to be only a human.

I never do see straight where my kids are concerned. There is a dissonance between how sure I was everything would look and what everything actually looks like. I trip over it all the time.

All I know at the end of the day is that this is my family.

There really isn't any more to know.

We will all get through this. I am trying very hard to change.

Sometimes, I feel like that really old mother in the Grapes of Wrath.

Who could have predicted that the very soil, that the very ground we were standing on, could blow out from under our feet?

Cedar

 

[DoneDad]

Wow, sorry this is happening.

His thinking is twisted and he's created a twisted reality for himself that reflects his thinking.

In his world he's a victim.

Steel yourselves - he's going to amp up in June.

And Jabbers got to be careful. He'd probably love it if you got physical and went to jail. He'd have direct access to who he sees as the softer touch.

I would keep away from him. If you do meet, make it a public place and if he starts getting ugly, leave. No rides, no visits to the house, no meeting him at his "friends" (potential lying witnesses for him).

You've got to look out for yourselves now, emotionally, mentally, and physically.

 

[Childofmine]

Lil and Jabber, coming to this a bit later to post, but I just want to say how sorry I am. When they feel like they are in a corner, they come out swinging. First the frantic phone call, then if we don't respond to that, the threats and then once we finally respond, the crazies.

My son did all of that too, and it usually culminated in suicide threats and then pounding on the front door in the middle of the night. So I would HAVE to deal with him.

It's awful. You may find you go through the stages of grief right now, back and forth, anger, depression, all of it. Let yourself go through it without reacting to any of the feelings if you can. They are just feelings, not facts.

He's not just "difficult", he has an actual sickness. A real, diagnosable one. I never really thought so before. I just thought he was kind of a pain and spoiled. But now I know it. Because normal, typical people do not think that's even a possibility.

Remember, addiction alone can cause this type of behavior. And it truly doesn't matter the diagnosis right now, if he doesn't want help and won't be compliant with any kind of a course of treatment. You can drive yourself nuts trying to figure out what in the world is wrong with them, when...really...it doesn't matter that much right now. The behavior is the issue. It's about behavior.

They simply want to rely on someone else to take care of them.

I think this is 100 percent on the money. Non-cougar was another warm lap to lay in, perhaps figuratively and literally. You said no, so he found somebody to say yes. Instead of himself. There are all kinds of people out there who need somebody to "take care of." But sometimes, even those folks get tired of it.

I would imagine whatever was going on, at some point, he started doing what he does, and for most people, that doesn't work. Lying around, doing nothing, messing up, not working...who can live with anybody like that? That's why God made teenagers, so we would be ready to let them go (please go!!!)....

In his world he's a victim.

I think this is 100 percent on the money. When he's desperate and in a corner (now what am I going to do? Even non-cougar wants me out!), then they run back to Mommy and Daddy and pitch a fit. Much like a two-year-old does in the grocery store.

My son kept coming back to me and to his dad, alternating since we are divorced, playing us against each other, when one was spent out, the other was the target. I'm not sure how truly devious it was, but I do believe it is very sick behavior for someone who is "supposed" to start taking responsibility for themselves. But when it's all me, me, me and I can't, I can't, I can't and I want, I want, I want and drugs and alcohol are involved, then that is what we get.

All I can suggest is that you allow some space and time and distance to occur. These are critical times for you and for him, in terms of okay, now what am I going to do? If mom and dad and non-cougar won't cave, then I'll either have to find somebody else to take care of me, or miracle of miracles, will he take one small step to start doing something new for himself? Is he sick and tired enough?

It is all about behavior. In this world, it just doesn't work to act like he did and like my son has, and expect ANYBODY to respond to that. Even mom and dad. Hopefully, especially mom and dad, who love them enough to say no and mean no.

I have a good friend whose 42-year-old son is still doing this type of thing. She was at Al-Anon with me yesterday. Once again she is left holding the bag, and he's gone out of control all over again. She is ready to change, finally, she says. She has been coming to Al-Anon for three weeks now. It's up to her if she can withstand the tornado once it really starts to blow. People don't like it when we change, and when the same "tricks" don't work anymore. They ramp up and up and up. Many of us----I did---for a long time, can't withstand the pressure. We cave again and again. It's really hard not to, when we are presented with the chaos, drama and destruction the people we love so much can create. We are scared to death for them, and we can't handle our own desperate fear so we cave. That is understandable.

But one day, we are finally ready to stay the course (we still mess up, but less and less). We KNOW none of it worked and it won't ever work and we are miserable.

Hang in there. Do what you can live with. We are all here for you regardless. We get it and we understand. Warm hugs today. Praying for you all.

 

[Jabberwockey]

I don't blame you for losing it, it's so hard to maintain your composure and control when a Difficult Child is acting the way he was.

I do. The simple fact of the matter is that I allowed him to at least partially manipulate me into a confrontation. I know better.

And Jabbers got to be careful. He'd probably love it if you got physical and went to jail. He'd have direct access to who he sees as the softer touch.

I would keep away from him. If you do meet, make it a public place and if he starts getting ugly, leave. No rides, no visits to the house, no meeting him at his "friends" (potential lying witnesses for him).

Agreed and that was the plan.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

And Jabbers got to be careful. He'd probably love it if you got physical and went to jail. He'd have direct access to who he sees as the softer touch.

This kind of triangulation happened in our family.

I will let you wonder which of us was the softer touch.

Ahem.

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

He just applied for a job that drug tests. He was so sure he's going to get the job that I can't think that he's been doing drugs ... at least not anything that would show. But I don't know.

Maybe he just told you it was negative and it wasn't. Not sure they let the prospective employee in on the results. It takes time to process the test. Also, they don't usually tell you why you aren't hired. You just don't get hired.

Lots of drugs do not show up in blood tests and they know which ones they are.

Can you really trust his word? At all?

 

[Lil]

So...he called earlier and asked about how to get ahold of the prosecutor. I was busy, but I did call him back to explain...he's been shuffled off from person to person today and that's because the PA only takes calls on Wednesday. Anyway, he was on the phone when I called, but returned the call and said he'd been talking to Job Corps and it went very well. He said that they told him that he'd need to come tomorrow - with a parent - to sign up. This doesn't surprise me. My friend's husband also had a sign paperwork stating he would no longer support his son since the boy was living at home. In our case, it's because we've been paying his rent. They also told him he either has to get his community service completed or waived or it might result in a delay of several months. I will, of course, be verifying this myself when I go to Job Corps...I'm not taking his word for it.

Yes, I'm going. If he's serious and really wants to go, they won't let him without one of us signing the non-support documents.

He, of course, wants ME to talk to the prosecutor about waiving the community service. I might. I might not. I haven't decided. Sometimes being a lawyer really sucks....because my inclination to say yes stems more from that than from being his mom. My mom impulse is to say no. But I find my first impulse when upset with him is probably not necessarily the best impulse. Yeah...going to have to think about that.

The thing is, if it had been ANYONE besides my son, even the first time when it was only a bag of relatively inexpensive stuff returned to Menards, I would have promptly called the police and they would have never been allowed in my house again.

If it had been anyone besides our son, I'd have been right there with you honey. I still don't know exactly why we didn't press charges against the first two people we had steal from us. That was just dumb of us.

I think what happened Lil is that, somewhere in the heart of you, you wondered how this woman was able to shelter and assist and interact with your son, how it was that she had taken him in when the time is so short before June and he had lessons you and Jabber were trying to teach him ~ all that stuff gets twisted up, when we are the mom. There is always that desperate sense of time pressure; there is somehow always that utter belief that this is all going to stop.

Actually, I just expected her to be some MILF. Or at least passably attractive.

I'm kind of embarrassed I ever mentioned it...but it didn't have anything to do with sheltering and assisting. I just expected her to be physically kind of hot in a skanky kind of way.

And Jabbers got to be careful. He'd probably love it if you got physical and went to jail. He'd have direct access to who he sees as the softer touch.

I don't know if he's devious enough to have planned that...but he definitely wanted to pick an actual fight, trying to prove he's big and bad, or trying to get Jabber in trouble, I don't know which. He'd have been very sorry if that had happened - because he'd find his mom backing dad - not him. I told the cops there that he'd started it.

All I can suggest is that you allow some space and time and distance to occur.

Us allowing it isn't the problem. Him constantly trying to force it is.

Remember, addiction alone can cause this type of behavior. And it truly doesn't matter the diagnosis right now, if he doesn't want help and won't be compliant with any kind of a course of treatment.

I'd agree with this if I thought there was actually an addiction problem...I don't. That's what's so confusing about this. I'm certainly not ruling out some form of drug abuse...but he's certainly not doing what he was before (and during) college when he was just sitting around stoned 80% (90?) of the time.

These are critical times for you and for him, in terms of okay, now what am I going to do? If mom and dad and non-cougar won't cave, then I'll either have to find somebody else to take care of me, or miracle of miracles, will he take one small step to start doing something new for himself? Is he sick and tired enough?

I hope to God that the second part: "one small step to start doing something new for himself" is what this is. I'm afraid that Job Corps will just be the first thing instead, "somebody else to take care of him".

That's just a recipe for failure.

Can you really trust his word? At all?

Of course not. It's not his word I'm trusting. Or him.

 

[Jabberwockey]

If it had been anyone besides our son, I'd have been right there with you honey. I still don't know exactly why we didn't press charges against the first two people we had steal from us. That was just dumb of us.

Because it was after the fact and we had no proof. We knew it was them but we both know that knowing and proving are two different creatures, especially considering some of the friends our son had coming over at the time.

Us allowing it isn't the problem. Him constantly trying to force it is.

And this more than anything is why I'm in the slightest bit inclined to have to talk to the PA so he can get in Job Corps and get the hell out of town. Some physical distance between us would definitely help because even he cant be that stupid to think that we will either send him money or drive to Chicago just because he needs someone to talk to face to face.

 

[Tanya M]

I think the Job Corps idea is great and if talking to the PA will help him get in then I would do it. Not to say that it can't happen at any age, but your son is still young enough that he has a better chance of turning things around.

Lil, you are wise to verify everything he has told you about Job Corps and what they require.

Having physical distance of 50 miles or more does make a difference. There is a certain peace that comes with that for sure.

I'm hoping things will go well with the Job Corps.

 

[Lil]

And this more than anything is why I'm in the slightest bit inclined to have to talk to the PA so he can get in Job Corps and get the hell out of town.

That has occurred to me.

Is it terrible that we want him to be gone that badly? I mean, I HOPE, beyond all hope, that Job Corps turns into a good thing. But within that is the hope he gets a degree, gets a job in ANOTHER TOWN, and pretty much never comes back except for quick visits.

Even when he was in college, sure, I got the dramatic phone calls...but I'm less inclined to say yes these days than I was.

Of course, I am afraid he'll have a melt-down and get kicked out...but he HAS to learn to control himself someday. And we can say, "This is it. Last chance. You get kicked out, don't even come back to this town. We won't take you in. You want to change your life, DO IT."

 

[Tanya M]

Is it terrible that we want him to be gone that badly?

No, it's not terrible. He is causing chaos in your life and you deserve to have some calm.
I do understand the feelings though, I've been there.
When husband and I moved from the West to the Midwest our son was in prison. I had feelings of guilt but at the same time I was happy to moving so many miles away from him.
There is a peace that comes from being separated by miles.

The one thing with our Difficult Child is that we will always love them but that doesn't mean we have to like them. I love my son dearly but if he were not my son and I met him I would not want anything to do with him because of the person he is. Many people do not understand how I can feel that way but they have not lived through the chaos and fear that I have because of him.

Hoping all goes well and he get accepted by Job Corps.

 

[blackgnat]

Believe me, the distance between my difficult child and I (I'm in Illinois-but I DID go to Australia for 3 MONTHS, yay ME! and he is in Colorado) has been the most important factor in my healing. Not there yet, but working on it, as ever.

He is still messing up, but the fact that he isn't going to be doing the 3 a.m. rescue calls, or knocking on my door, or turning up at my workplace is a BEAUTIFUL THING.

And like all of us, I hate that I'm saying that, but the chaos that that young man has caused in our now-fractured family beggars belief.

So I totally get your mindset, Lil...

 

[Lil]

I think one of the things that gets me most about yesterday isn't the fight itself it's how utterly clueless he is. He really, truly, doesn't "get it".

Do you believe he called again - to tell me he found a (poor) copy of yesterday's Game of Throne's episode on-line. I opined that "poor is what you get for a pirated episode", but the point is...he asked if next week he could come over. I said, "I really don't know. I doubt it. Yesterday was...bad." He said he understood. I said, "What gets me, is I sat around crying for HOURS yesterday Difficult Child. And apparently YOU were worried about your show. Did you really think it would all just blow over?"

He said, "I just thought we'd put it behind us and have family time."

I was practically speechless. I told him, "It's just not that easy." He said he understood and he'd see me tomorrow.

He just thinks everything should be set aside and we'd be a happy family. He thinks - really thinks - that no matter what he does, no matter how bad it gets, that we'll just forgive and forget immediately. Where does that come from? How does that make sense?

Yesterday in the car, we made some remark about how he's had six months to get a job...four months since he was arrested...two months since court. He had his taxes since his arrest. He should have saved them for the court costs. He was warned then that he'd need them. (Of course, when I told him that he said the money was already gone.) He started in on people stealing from him and I said, "Do you have ANY idea how IRONIC that is?"

In retrospect, that was really what set him off. He said something along the line of how we should stop bringing that up. That he's done everything to make it up to us.

What??? I asked, "What have you done?" He made some vague reference to being a better son. I said, "Being pleasant - being nice to us isn't enough. You have do something. Name me ONE thing you've done to change?"

I think that's where he told me to shut the eff up.

The whole time we were trying to get him to get out of the car he was screaming that he NEEDED us to be his parents. That he had no one. That he NEEDED OUR HELP!

What do you do with that?

 

[Childofmine]

When we push people into a corner with the questions we ask, they are going to come out swinging.

I know because I used to do that a lot with difficult child. I still do it sometimes, and this weekend I did it with easy child about his wedding (don't ask).

They go on defensive/attack. They can't get us to stop, because we are heck-bent on getting an answer and making our point.

We're going to say it, because it's been bottled up for so long.

But we aren't solving anything by the great advice and questions we keep asking to push our points so they will "get it."

easy child gets defensive, disagrees with everything I say, deflects, and finally starts saying "I don't know." When will I ever learn not to do this? It doesn't result in their instant realization of truth.

It just makes them mad and even though momentarily I'm relieved that I "got it all out", very quickly I'm feeling frustrated again.

These questions we have burning inside us, why do you do what you do? Why don't you do what you don't do? have no real answers. It is what it is. They are who they are. They do what they do.

And it won't change until they decide they really want to change.

Unfortunately.

 

[Jabberwockey]

He said, "I just thought we'd put it behind us and have family time."

Not happening anytime soon. Just...no. Me and him in the same room right now would be a VERY bad idea.

What??? I asked, "What have you done?" He made some vague reference to being a better son. I said, "Being pleasant - being nice to us isn't enough. You have do something. Name me ONE thing you've done to change?"

Actually, I'm the one who asked what he had done and he launched into the vague and completely useless tirade about trying to be a better son. And lets be honest, he is rarely pleasant or nice to us. And when he is its usually because he wants something.

The reason he lost it is that we called him on his BS. We wanted details that he couldn't give without lying and since he knew we would want proof as well we put him in a corner. In his mind, putting in an application every other week or so is enough. Or being nice even though its because he wants something.

 

[Tanya M]

The whole time we were trying to get him to get out of the car he was screaming that he NEEDED us to be his parents. That he had no one. That he NEEDED OUR HELP!

What do you do with that?

That's all you have done is be his parents and try and help him. Unfortunately he just doesn't see it, he only see himself as a victim. Very typical of a Difficult Child, again, they want to be able to just live their life without and consequence, they have zero respect for any form of authority.

He just thinks everything should be set aside and we'd be a happy family. He thinks - really thinks - that no matter what he does, no matter how bad it gets, that we'll just forgive and forget immediately. Where does that come from? How does that make sense?

Yes, that's exactly how Difficult Child think. I can't tell you how many times I would talk to my son about how his actions have affected me and his dad only to have him say things like "why do you always have to throw the past in my face, why can't you just let it go" "Go ahead, kick me while I'm down" "Too bad I can't be perfect like you are"
I've told my son that I have forgiven him but I can't forget, it's just humanly impossible. I've told him that I don't trust him because of everything he's done and for me to trust him again will take a lot of work on his part. My son chooses to stay in the victim role. As far as he's concerned he does no wrong it's the everyone else who's out to get him.
I remember last year when my son go arrested. He wrote us a letter from jail and he told us that he had a camp set up in the woods and was ticked off because he just knew that while he was in jail someone would find his camp and steal all his stuff. They just don't get it. In "their world" they can steal and it's ok, but if someone steals from them, well that's just wrong.
I will never understand their thinking and gave up a long time ago trying to.

Hang in there Lil.

 

[Jabberwockey]

have him say things like "why do you always have to throw the past in my face, why can't you just let it go" "Go ahead, kick me while I'm down" "Too bad I can't be perfect like you are"

Our son has never made the perfect comment but is always ranting about throwing the past in his face and just letting it go.

 

[Lil]

I can't tell you how many times I would talk to my son about how his actions have affected me and his dad only to have him say things like "why do you always have to throw the past in my face, why can't you just let it go" "Go ahead, kick me while I'm down" "Too bad I can't be perfect like you are"
I've told my son that I have forgiven him but I can't forget, it's just humanly impossible. I've told him that I don't trust him because of everything he's done and for me to trust him again will take a lot of work on his part. My son chooses to stay in the victim role. As far as he's concerned he does no wrong it's the everyone else who's out to get him.
I remember last year when my son go arrested. He wrote us a letter from jail and he told us that he had a camp set up in the woods and was ticked off because he just knew that while he was in jail someone would find his camp and steal all his stuff. They just don't get it. In "their world" they can steal and it's ok, but if someone steals from them, well that's just wrong.

Yep. Other than the "perfect like you" comment, that all sounds EXACTLY like our son. He complains bitterly about other people treating him badly. He lost his job because the supervisor wanted to fire him. He got kicked out of the shelter because they didn't like him. He never does anything wrong...ever. And his stealing should be forgiven by now because he has spent the last three weeks being nice to us when he comes over to eat pizza and watch our TV.

Never mind that he's made no attempt to get a job and just pay his own bills! We don't care if he NEVER pays us back...if he just stops costing us money!

Me and him in the same room right now would be a VERY bad idea.

I know that honey. I just hope that it doesn't last forever.