Gentle push or swift kick!

Although it is tremendously hard now, I look back and so wish our difficult child had gone to jail at 18. We were in NO WAY ready to let that happen. It took me until 2012-2013 to finally get fed up enough to let go. I still have bad, guilty days, but fewer. We are codependent, but hopefully each day a tiny bit less!

Sent using ConductDisorders mobile app
 

Childofmine

one day at a time
Your son is not as fragile as you think.

Absolutely.

Your son IS tough. He is street tough,

Absolutely. And they are survivors. I have learned that over time.

Your son can do this if he wants to and you can do what you know you need to do too.

Absolutely. Great words, MWM.

She and I are very close now and she is clean. You have to have the hope that your son can do it because only he can. He has 100% of the power here and you have 0% over him, but 100% over yourself and your reactions. Believe that your son is far tougher than you think, stop thinking of him as that ten year old boy who you'd defend if anyone dared pick on him, and remember that your son is eighteen, almost fully grown in body, and used to risks and shady people.

And he's not the precious little 2 year old in the frame in your living room. Not anymore.

Had a little cry this morning.

That is good. Crying is always good and necessary. It keeps our hearts soft and our emotional health clean. Keep crying when you need to. Don't bottle it up.

I know he's doing a lot of thinking,

My son has been in jail some 8 or 9 times. I have learned that what he is usually thinking is how to beat it. How to negotiate his way out. Not about change. That's another reason I stay away. I don't want to sit and hear all of that.

I did eye a really nice little leather purse I adore..

Sweet! Go get it.

There is NOOOO WAY I would let my difficult child home now with almost 90 days of FORCED sobriety!!! When she has 6+ mos of treatment and it is felt she WANTS sobriety....we'll talk abt it.

Absolutely. I have to see the talk walked. I don't believe the talk anymore. Sustained change will have to be seen and believed by ME.

Some definitions of codependency:

excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically a partner who requires support due to an illness or addiction.

another:

Codependency is defined as a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (typically narcissism or drug addiction); and in broader terms, it refers to the dependence on the needs of, or control of, another.[1] It also often involves placing a lower priority on one's own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others.[2] Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships.[2] Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, or control patterns.[2] Narcissists are considered to be natural magnets for the codependent.

Yep this was me. If he was sad, I was sad. If he was in trouble I was in trouble. When he said I'm going to change, I hung on every word.

No more.

Hugs to you today, 4. Keep showing up. Keep talking. Keep writing. Keep crying. It is a day by day thing, recovery. Keep moving forward. We're here for you.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I went to Codependents Anonymous for three years. I never learned so much about myself and my reactions to others in my life. It changed me for the better. If they have one near you, GO. If not, go to Al-Anon or Nar-Anon and see what you can get out of it. Or see a private therapist. It is too easy to slip unless you have a support system.

My son was never in jail, but he was homeless. I doubt he thought much about how to change. I agree with COM. He thought mostly about how to find somebody to mooch off of. Some grown kids really do have "lightbulb" moments when homeless or in jail. Most are only thinking about how to get around the system and get what they want from their parents int he meantime (yep, they love that free$$$ and the tears we cry).
 

4PawsSake

Member
I should point out that (and I'm really not defending him, he's still a PITA), he's been telling me for months now, that he's an adult now and he doesn't want my help or input. I'M the one that offers help, food, phone calls, asking everyone if they've seen him lately... just to check and make sure he's okay. Yeah, it's controlling on my part Since he's under 18, every time he gets in trouble, the police bring the notice to parent to me (makes it really hard to not get involved), I'm also required as a mom *MY own decision* to be in court to support him even though he never wanted me to be there. Yet, he still is under 18 and in MY opinion, it's right for me to be involved. I did tell him that once he's 18, I won't be involved in his legal battles, he's on his own when it comes to that. He's been requesting that the police not bring those notices to me, every time I'm in the courtroom, he wonders why I'm there.
More and more, I'm realizing it's not so much HIM that is my problem...it's ME! I'm not beating myself up for that...all of my IMPOSING was well meaning and from the heart but not positively effective.
I was like this with my daughter too, once she turned 18, she moved out on her own. She loves her space, she works full time and is fairly independent. I was very good about her being on her own, I encouraged it. I know I raised them right.



Wendy
 

layne

Member
I should point out that (and I'm really not defending him, he's still a PITA), he's been telling me for months now, that he's an adult now and he doesn't want my help or input. I'M the one that offers help, food, phone calls, asking everyone if they've seen him lately... just to check and make sure he's okay. Yeah, it's controlling on my part Since he's under 18, every time he gets in trouble, the police bring the notice to parent to me (makes it really hard to not get involved), I'm also required as a mom *MY own decision* to be in court to support him even though he never wanted me to be there. Yet, he still is under 18 and in MY opinion, it's right for me to be involved. I did tell him that once he's 18, I won't be involved in his legal battles, he's on his own when it comes to that. He's been requesting that the police not bring those notices to me, every time I'm in the courtroom, he wonders why I'm there.
More and more, I'm realizing it's not so much HIM that is my problem...it's ME! I'm not beating myself up for that...all of my IMPOSING was well meaning and from the heart but not positively effective.
I was like this with my daughter too, once she turned 18, she moved out on her own. She loves her space, she works full time and is fairly independent. I was very good about her being on her own, I encouraged it. I know I raised them right.



Wendy

If he is under 18, it's not his damn decision whether or not for you to be there. He don't get to make that decision. Secondly, I think he is trying to fool you. You don't think he knows that you have to be there? He knows you have to be there. He's not stupid. He said he doesn't need you, but that's what he thinks. If you truly didn't help him, I like to see what tune he would be singing. Like you said, you give him what he needs, so he can sit there and easily say he doesn't need you. But lets see what he actually says when you stop giving him everything. Let's see how tough and independent he is then.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I should point out that (and I'm really not defending him, he's still a PITA), he's been telling me for months now, that he's an adult now and he doesn't want my help or input. I'M the one that offers help, food, phone calls, asking everyone if they've seen him lately... just to check and make sure he's okay. Yeah, it's controlling on my part Since he's under 18, every time he gets in trouble, the police bring the notice to parent to me (makes it really hard to not get involved), I'm also required as a mom *MY own decision* to be in court to support him even though he never wanted me to be there. Yet, he still is under 18 and in MY opinion, it's right for me to be involved. I did tell him that once he's 18, I won't be involved in his legal battles, he's on his own when it comes to that. He's been requesting that the police not bring those notices to me, every time I'm in the courtroom, he wonders why I'm there.
More and more, I'm realizing it's not so much HIM that is my problem...it's ME! I'm not beating myself up for that...all of my IMPOSING was well meaning and from the heart but not positively effective.
I was like this with my daughter too, once she turned 18, she moved out on her own. She loves her space, she works full time and is fairly independent. I was very good about her being on her own, I encouraged it. I know I raised them right.



Wendy
You did raise them right. After 18, you have NO legal right to see or be involved in anything. And by 17 they don't really push you to do that much. If he doesn't want you to be there, I wouldn't go. Why waste your time? If a friend asked you not to come to her house, would you still go?

"But this is my child."

Well, yes...and no.

Our children are borrowed for eighteen years. They were once babies and gurgled and smiled at us and we loved them so and they thought we were their world. Then they were little kids and so cute and loving and put dandeleins on the table for us. Then they were teens and needed our direction, but started pulling away. By the time they are eighteen, while many are still very immature in their minds, legally they are adults and we have no more control over them. We are not allowed to read anything legal or medical without their permission. We can't tell them what to do or how to do it, unless they ask as an opinion, and we can't make them do anything. They are almost fully grown in body and many serve in the military,go away to college and do fine, move out and do fine.

The fact is, our difficult children are just differently wired, tend to shun society, tend to do exactly the opposite of what makes a person successful. It isn't that they don't know better or can't do it (in my opinion it is never good to let ANy adult child think you don't think he/she can make it alone)...it is that he has to learn his own lessons, just like we did. How did YOU like your mother barging in and judging everything you did? I didn't want anything to do with it. I had tuned her out by age sixteen and was going to do what I wanted to do or felt was right when I was eighteen and I did. One biggie was I married outside of my religion. I was the first Jewish person on both sides of my family to marry somebody who wasn't Jewish, but I thought it was absolutely nutty to be restricted about marriage due to my parent's religion (I didn't have a real religion at the time). What could they do? Well, they didn't have to throw me a wedding, but I didn't care if I had a wedding. You may not think this is a serious offense, but to my family it was horrific...haha, I started a trend. Everyone after me followed my lead, but that's beside the point. WE CAN NOT CONTROL OUR GROWN CHILDREN.

And when I say "grown" I don't mean they are mature. Some people are never mature. I have a 36 year old son who will probably never grow up. However, I am not obligated to take care of him anymore and I don't. At least he is partly functional because he knows he can't come to Dad or Mom to take care of him. He has his own house, a good job, and he is still a difficult child, but he has been forced to be independent, difficult child or not.

Hugs again for your hurting mommy heart. I know how hard this is. It was hard for me too. Sometimes it still is.
 

layne

Member
You did raise them right. After 18, you have NO legal right to see or be involved in anything. And by 17 they don't really push you to do that much. If he doesn't want you to be there, I wouldn't go. Why waste your time? If a friend asked you not to come to her house, would you still go?

"But this is my child."

Well, yes...and no.

Our children are borrowed for eighteen years. They were once babies and gurgled and smiled at us and we loved them so and they thought we were their world. Then they were little kids and so cute and loving and put dandeleins on the table for us. Then they were teens and needed our direction, but started pulling away. By the time they are eighteen, while many are still very immature in their minds, legally they are adults and we have no more control over them. We are not allowed to read anything legal or medical without their permission. We can't tell them what to do or how to do it, unless they ask as an opinion, and we can't make them do anything. They are almost fully grown in body and many serve in the military,go away to college and do fine, move out and do fine.

The fact is, our difficult children are just differently wired, tend to shun society, tend to do exactly the opposite of what makes a person successful. It isn't that they don't know better or can't do it (in my opinion it is never good to let ANy adult child think you don't think he/she can make it alone)...it is that he has to learn his own lessons, just like we did. How did YOU like your mother barging in and judging everything you did? I didn't want anything to do with it. I had tuned her out by age sixteen and was going to do what I wanted to do or felt was right when I was eighteen and I did. One biggie was I married outside of my religion. I was the first Jewish person on both sides of my family to marry somebody who wasn't Jewish, but I thought it was absolutely nutty to be restricted about marriage due to my parent's religion (I didn't have a real religion at the time). What could they do? Well, they didn't have to throw me a wedding, but I didn't care if I had a wedding. You may not think this is a serious offense, but to my family it was horrific...haha, I started a trend. Everyone after me followed my lead, but that's beside the point. WE CAN NOT CONTROL OUR GROWN CHILDREN.

And when I say "grown" I don't mean they are mature. Some people are never mature. I have a 36 year old son who will probably never grow up. However, I am not obligated to take care of him anymore and I don't. At least he is partly functional because he knows he can't come to Dad or Mom to take care of him. He has his own house, a good job, and he is still a difficult child, but he has been forced to be independent, difficult child or not.

Hugs again for your hurting mommy heart. I know how hard this is. It was hard for me too. Sometimes it still is.


Applause! Amen!
 

4PawsSake

Member
Wow, all these years, I've been feeling so guilty that Forest didn't have a dad. Well, that wasn't MY fault, it's his dad's fault. Let him live with guilt, if deadbeats ever do!
I didn't have a dad, my brother never had a dad. We grew up just fine, we didn't hang with druggies, we weren't constantly challenging the system, we grew up to be responsible adults and GREAT parents in spite of our upbringing. Looking back at Forest's childhood...that kid had it awesome!!! He did struggle with issues behaviour wise but nothing that I didn't have under control when I had to. He was happy as a pig in $hit. It was only when he was introduced to alcohol, drugs and "the wrong crowd" that he went astray and that wasn't MY doing..it was HIS.
I must sound like a babbling idiot but it does feel good to vent!! I'm actually starting to get pissed at HIM instead of feeling sorry for him and allowing him to play me on my sympathies.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
A lot of boys grow up without a dad. At his age, it is only one person at fault here...your son. He is too old to put that on anyone else. He knows how to act better and chooses not to...and that is HIS fault. It's not even the fault of his "friends" who introduced him to drugs. He picked them. There are plenty of nice people who do not abuse alcohol and drugs, but he wanted to rebel. I say, have at it, but not on Mom's dime.
 

4PawsSake

Member
Exactly.
I don't blame the guys he hangs with either. I'm sure many moms are upset that they choose to hang with Forest so...in that group, they're all equally to blame for their crappy lifestyle!


Wendy
 

4PawsSake

Member
I just called the correctional facility NOT to speak with him (He's going to have to extend the olive branch) but to check on his progress...he has been doing great, no incidents, very polite and cordial UNTIL today!! Seems he's made some friends and as usual in their words, he seems to be gravitating toward the wrong crowd. So, he was sitting next to a few boys and him and three others laughed hysterically at another one after making "extremely inappropriate comment" toward one of the female staff. That bought my PITA son 3 days in solitary confinement! The guard said, he'll learn who his friends are eventually.


Wendy
 
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4PawsSake

Member
I'm seriously considering appealing to the judge again on the 2nd of June. This time it'll be covering all charges he has against him. I know house arrest is what will be suggested again and honestly, we were willing to give it a try IF he showed signs of desire to change his ways, if he continues, I will ask that he serve in there and he can until he's 18.
This is only his first offence in there that he's being punished for..let's see how it affects him.

Wendy
 

Childofmine

one day at a time
4, my son was in solitary once as well for not following rules in jail.

It is often said you can tell how they are doing by the people they are hanging out with.

Having a drug addict under house arrest is my idea of a living h___. I would definitely appeal to anybody and everybody for that NOT to happen.

Hang in there. He will get it when he gets it and not before that time, no matter what you do or don't do.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I just called the correctional facility NOT to speak with him (He's going to have to extend the olive branch) but to check on his progress...he has been doing great, no incidents, very polite and cordial UNTIL today!! Seems he's made some friends and as usual in their words, he seems to be gravitating toward the wrong crowd. So, he was sitting next to a few boys and him and three others laughed hysterically at another one after making "extremely inappropriate comment" toward one of the female staff. That bought my PITA son 3 days in solitary confinement! The guard said, he'll learn who his friends are eventually.


Wendy
Why don't you just detach from it? Don't call. Don't ask how he's doing. Don't get involved. Enjoy your own life and let him figure it out. If he screws up, they will make sure he gets his natural consequences. In a few months, nobody is going to listen to what you say and, in a way, you may like that...you are no longer a factor and therefore you can let go of it.

If he extends the olive branch, make sure he isn't just doing it so that you'll send him money. Don't let him use or abuse you. You deserve better than that. NOBODY should do those things to you. And you can't help your son by angsting over his misbehavior. He has to fix it. You can't.

Um, it will take months of his being out of a supervised environment and clean and sober to tell if he has changed his ways. Why ask for him to be grounded to your house where you'll be miserable? He hasn't changed one wit. He just got into trouble. That's not changing. He has a long way to go and he hasn't even started yet. His promise, as you know, is worthless. Only his long term actions are good.

So far he is not acting too intimidated by the trouble he's in. He is choosing to hang with some pretty bad troublemakers rather than distance himself and try to work on himself. I knew my daughter really meant she wanted to change when she stopped looking for druggies to hang out with, even if it meant she was lonely and friendless.

I really hope you can have a peaceful night. Whether you are peaceful or not, nothing will change for your son. You may as well read a good book, or take a hot bubble bath, or enjoy a mindless movie...and let the moments fall into place. None of us can control anyone but us. None of us can predict the future no matter how much we think about it.
 
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4PawsSake

Member
I'm not asking him to be grounded here, I'm telling them we can't have him here.
I know he's not changing and likely won't till he has found himself in a nasty place..the bottom.
He's taking life as a joke.
I can't not be informed as to how he's doing in there, I need it to back up what I tell the judge next Monday. His lawyer doesn't tell me diddly so it's the only way I'll be in the loop.
Had I not been in court last week to tell them that we would not allow him home, his lawyer had planned to say that we were okay with it. Forest would have been taken here.
Until he is 18, I'm still considered responsible and they WILL drop him in my lap, to avoid that, I need to be there!
After he turns 18 (22 days), he and his drama is in their hands. They are the ones that kept getting him off and allowing this to escalate while I begged them to hold him accountable. They didn't listen to me so...let them deal with him!!


Wendy
 

4PawsSake

Member
I know we've all been through so much with our difficult child's, but, I just want to add this.
While I know I need to be strong, tough, stern, I need to detach, reduce communication when required, I need to ignore, not give in, let go, let things happen as they will...I NEVER want this to harden me to a point that I'm always in "fight mode". I realize for some, it's what works, for me, I'd much prefer to stay somewhat soft. I like me the way I am. I'm gentle, a non confrontational type (although I know when to put my dukes up so to speak), I'm understanding, forgiving and kind.
My son is all of these as well...I realize it's not HIM, it's the substance that comes between us and that's what keeps me from going out of my mind when dealing with him.
Have a great day everyone!!
 

4PawsSake

Member
Third day since WE accepted Forest back in our home after his week and a half in youth correctional. So far so good! Today he went to work (summer crab processing plant) for a half day (season is still slow) then he came home, changed and went to work wth Ross (roofing).
Monday the judge went all "Judge Judy" on him. She asked him how it was in jail, horrible he said, "moms place doesn't seem so bad now does it?" NO. "Good, now turn around and apologize to her, and realize that this woman has been fighting for you for four years, she employs herself and chooses to miss work to support you whenever you mess up. He apologized.
She gave him 10 hrs/every breach which equaled to 120 hours community service, report every Friday to the station, curfew from 10pm to 6 am, can't hang with anyone with a criminal background and TWO YEARS PROBATION! I thanked her and told her that was very fair!
It is sooo wonderful seeing him bright and sober !!



Wendy
Frustrated but hopeful
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
I don't think any of us are in fight mode, except our difficult children. I may be wrong. I don't feel that coming off the posts.

I think most of us are pretty calm and steady when we deal with our difficult children. Many of us purposefully don't engage them much when they talk crazy and just listen. You don't have to fight...fighting/arguing is counter-productive. It doesn't work and it fuels the fire of many volatile difficult children. Some can and do get violent. Some are verbally abusive. And in no way do we HAVE to take either, nor, in my opinion, should we. But I have heard very little of these awesome moms deliberately picking fights with their adult children. Instead, we are trying to live serene, gooed lives in spite of our difficult children decisions to live destructive ones...because we can't change what they do. Therefore fighting is useless and just stresses our energy field.

I think you are smart to determine not to fight with your son. I think the other moms on the forum would agree with that. Our adult children have differing degrees of negative behaviors however. If our adult child never stops ranting at us about how horrible WE are and how his plight is OUR fault or if an adult child threatens to attack or attacks us or even gets in our face, it is prudent to calmly find a phone and call the cops, not to get back at this adult child, but to protect ourselves. Also, the adult child needs to know that if this happens, he could go to jail. I don't believe it free passes for serious infractions of boundaries and safety, but that is me. If an adult child is laying around all day at age 25 and not working and not helping around the house and taking drugs in or out of our homes and expects you to pay for his cell, internet, car insurance etc...well, he is not being violent. That is that against many of our house rules and if an adult child refuses to be anywhere near an adult we have two choices, really. We can allow it because they are our children and we will not risk the adult child having nowhere to live or being angry at us. Or we can set boundaries and act on them.

It is totally a personal opinion.
 

Childofmine

one day at a time
I am glad you are feeling something positive happen with difficult child, 4Paws. That helps a lot.

So far so good!

And you know, this is a one day at a time life---but most people in the world live in the past or the future. Most people don't HAVE to learn how to live in the moment because they aren't dealing with the ongoing unrelenting insanity of an adult child who is mentally ill.

We have to.

So I am glad you are claiming the moment here, and I truly hope your difficult child continues to walk in that new direction and never goes back to the old ways.

NOW is really all we have, so let's enjoy the NOW now.

I NEVER want this to harden me to a point that I'm always in "fight mode".

I used to get up in difficult child's face a lot. I used to get up in my ex-husband's face a lot (alcoholic, now recovering). I thought I would enlighten them to their problems and behaviors and somehow, once they actually knew how bad they were acting, they would stop. I had a lot to learn. I was acting as stupid and out of control as they were, and I don't have a brain disease. What was my excuse?

It was stark terror and ignorance and arrogance and being a manager and a fixer. I thought I had the answers and they just needed to listen to me.

Over the past 8 years, I have become much more humble about exactly who the problem is, here. Today, I see there are two problems in a relationship with somebody who is addicted---the addict/alcoholic and the enabler. Each has a lot of work to do.

I am working on me, and I will continue to work on me for the rest of my life. Now, I don't get up in anybody's face about anything and try to "set them straight." I have talked calmly to my son over the past year about his life and behavior, but little by little, even that I do less and less.

As I am learning to accept him as a grown man who is choosing a way of life and with the right to do that, I am learning that there is very little to say to him except to offer my love and encouragement.

The process of getting to this place---detachment with love and a growing acceptance of him---can feel flat and distant and empty. Sometimes I wonder if it is a hardening of the heart, and maybe it is, a bit.

I am still the free-wheeling hopeless romantic in so many ways, but I have also been honed by fire, and I am more grown up today than I ever have been. I hope it is a centered, calm heart that I have now, most of the time, not a hard, teflon heart.

I definitely am not a fighter anymore---I just to fight passionately for all of my beliefs and now I don't have to do that anymore.

Until he is 18, I'm still considered responsible

Your son is still young, and I pray that this behavior of his, his decisions, his mistakes to date, can move to his past and not continue. But that is his decision.

You are just as important as he is 4Paws, and I hope you can claim that knowledge in your life as time goes on, and be ever kinder to yourself, putting yourself very high up on the list of priorities, letting go of all of the adults in your/our lives and loving them gently, accepting them for just who they show us they are, and being okay with that, as we hope they can be with us.

May the days only get better in your family!
 

4PawsSake

Member
Wow, Childofmine, You always manage to "get me". You hit it all dead on. Wish I had known someone like you much sooner. Nice to be on the same page with someone!

"Controlling Wendy Marie" is learning to let go and I have to say, what a peaceful feeling it is. I'm still struggling with the vision of that little boy, yesterday, hubby and I were on our way out to dinner, we passed Forest, he was walking home from work (he called me twice for a drive, I ignored them) after an 8 hour day and it was sunny and hot out, IF I had my way, Id have turned the truck around and taken him home..Ross reminded me, he's NOT that little boy anymore and he has to get out of his antisocial/shyness and ask for a drive (he has about 50 or more coworkers, at least half are coming his way) and stop relying on MOMMY so much.
I'm trying to stick to our deal...deal was...I'll drive you to work but you're responsible to get home. I think that's fair enough. Technically, IF he hadn't screwed up so many times and was responsible, he'd have license and could have borrowed my car.

Thank you so much!




Wendy
 
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