tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
Duckie comes home from school today with not one, but two, huge bites on her legs with bullseye rashes.
We see the doctor at 3:15 tomorrow.
We see the doctor at 3:15 tomorrow.
Great. Just great!
- Thread starter tiredmommy
- Start date
Lothlorien
Active Member
If treated right away, she should be fine. Most docs on this side of the country don't mess around with the clear-cut bulls-eye rash.
tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone. I did get a picture... which is good because the outer ring is starting to fade. I wouldn't normally say this, but I'm glad we're seeing our family doctor's partner because he seems to like to hand out antibiotics like they're candy. Our doctor doesn't like to over-prescribe, at least where ear aches and sinuses are concerned.
tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
by the way, does anyone know how between the tick bite and the bulls eye appearing? We're trying to figure out when it happened.
Hound dog
Nana's are Beautiful
Lyme Disease Symptoms
The Lyme disease bacterium can infect several parts of the body, producing different symptoms at different times. Not all patients with Lyme disease will have all symptoms, and many of the symptoms can occur with other diseases as well. If you believe you may have Lyme disease, it is important that you consult your health care provider for proper diagnosis.
The first sign of infection is usually a circular rash called erythemamigrans or EM. This rash occurs in approximately 70-80% of infected persons and begins at the site of a tick bite after a delay of 3-30 days. A distinctive feature of the rash is that it gradually expands over a period of several days, reaching up to 12 inches (30 cm) across. The center of the rash may clear as it enlarges, resulting in a bull's-eye appearance. It may be warm but is not usually painful. Some patients develop additional EM lesions in other areas of the body after several days. Patients also experience symptoms of fatigue, chills, fever, headache, and muscle and joint aches, and swollen lymph nodes. In some cases, these may be the only symptoms of infection.
Untreated, the infection may spread to other parts of the body within a few days to weeks, producing an array of discrete symptoms. These include loss of muscle tone on one or both sides of the face (called facial or "Bell's palsy), severe headaches and neck stiffness due to meningitis, shooting pains that may interfere with sleep, heart palpitations and dizziness due to changes in heartbeat, and pain that moves from joint to joint. Many of these symptoms will resolve, even without treatment.
After several months, approximately 60% of patients with untreated infection will begin to have intermittent bouts of arthritis, with severe joint pain and swelling. Large joints are most often affected, particularly the knees. In addition, up to 5% of untreated patients may develop chronic neurological complaints months to years after infection. These include shooting pains, numbness or tingling in the hands or feet, and problems with concentration and short term memory.
Most cases of Lyme disease can be cured with antibiotics, especially if treatment is begun early in the course of illness. However, a small percentage of patients with Lyme disease have symptoms that last months to years after treatment with antibiotics. These symptoms can include muscle and joint pains, arthritis, cognitive defects, sleep disturbance, or fatigue. The cause of these symptoms is not known. There is some evidence that they result from an autoimmune response, in which a person's immune system continues to respond even after the infection has been cleared
So looks like it's 3-30 days for the rash to appear.
Would you like the CDC's opinon of the best test to run for diagnosis? I've got that too.
Gee, this is all you needed. Good thing you got those pics!!
Hugs
The Lyme disease bacterium can infect several parts of the body, producing different symptoms at different times. Not all patients with Lyme disease will have all symptoms, and many of the symptoms can occur with other diseases as well. If you believe you may have Lyme disease, it is important that you consult your health care provider for proper diagnosis.
The first sign of infection is usually a circular rash called erythemamigrans or EM. This rash occurs in approximately 70-80% of infected persons and begins at the site of a tick bite after a delay of 3-30 days. A distinctive feature of the rash is that it gradually expands over a period of several days, reaching up to 12 inches (30 cm) across. The center of the rash may clear as it enlarges, resulting in a bull's-eye appearance. It may be warm but is not usually painful. Some patients develop additional EM lesions in other areas of the body after several days. Patients also experience symptoms of fatigue, chills, fever, headache, and muscle and joint aches, and swollen lymph nodes. In some cases, these may be the only symptoms of infection.
Untreated, the infection may spread to other parts of the body within a few days to weeks, producing an array of discrete symptoms. These include loss of muscle tone on one or both sides of the face (called facial or "Bell's palsy), severe headaches and neck stiffness due to meningitis, shooting pains that may interfere with sleep, heart palpitations and dizziness due to changes in heartbeat, and pain that moves from joint to joint. Many of these symptoms will resolve, even without treatment.
After several months, approximately 60% of patients with untreated infection will begin to have intermittent bouts of arthritis, with severe joint pain and swelling. Large joints are most often affected, particularly the knees. In addition, up to 5% of untreated patients may develop chronic neurological complaints months to years after infection. These include shooting pains, numbness or tingling in the hands or feet, and problems with concentration and short term memory.
Most cases of Lyme disease can be cured with antibiotics, especially if treatment is begun early in the course of illness. However, a small percentage of patients with Lyme disease have symptoms that last months to years after treatment with antibiotics. These symptoms can include muscle and joint pains, arthritis, cognitive defects, sleep disturbance, or fatigue. The cause of these symptoms is not known. There is some evidence that they result from an autoimmune response, in which a person's immune system continues to respond even after the infection has been cleared
So looks like it's 3-30 days for the rash to appear.
Would you like the CDC's opinon of the best test to run for diagnosis? I've got that too.
Gee, this is all you needed. Good thing you got those pics!!
Hugs
tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
So, we went to the appointment. He looked at the sheer number of bites and the now three suspiciously bulls-eye bites and a fourth that was a little oozy and asked her just where she'd been doing lately to get so many horrendous bites.
She threw husband under the truck and said he should have made sure she had on bug spray when they went out to the state park to fly their airplanes. He agreed. She even pointed out that I made sure she had bug spray on for activity day on Monday and gym on Tuesday.
He wasn't sure it was a tick because we never actually saw the tick. And he advised me that Lyme blood tests are known to be very inaccurate. He did, however, think there was definitely some sort of infection going on decided to culture the oozing bite and give her a ten day course of amoxicillin. Apparently, tetracycline is the antibiotic of choice but can't be taken by kids because it discolors their teeth.
She threw husband under the truck and said he should have made sure she had on bug spray when they went out to the state park to fly their airplanes. He agreed. She even pointed out that I made sure she had bug spray on for activity day on Monday and gym on Tuesday.
He wasn't sure it was a tick because we never actually saw the tick. And he advised me that Lyme blood tests are known to be very inaccurate. He did, however, think there was definitely some sort of infection going on decided to culture the oozing bite and give her a ten day course of amoxicillin. Apparently, tetracycline is the antibiotic of choice but can't be taken by kids because it discolors their teeth.
Marguerite
Active Member
I menionted on another thread - was chiggers considered? If it is chiggers, the centre of the bulls-eye should have a raised papule which she may have already scratched out. So rthe centre may now be a raw patch or a small scab, inside a raised red area (which can mask a scratched patch unless you look really closely).
The multiple nature of it makes me think chiggers rather than ticks. I got a dose of chiggers, I had a dozen of the things, all in the places where my clothing was tighter - wasitbands, wrist bands etc. Under boobs. I had been crawling around on the ground, cleaning out a broody cage no longer used by the mother hen and her chicks. I saw the little beasties, looking like red spider mites, crawling through the dirt, but I didn't realise they were biting me until it was too late. And I only saw a couple of them, but when I went back to look more thoroughly after the bites, thsat is when I realised that for the ones I saw, there would have been many more. Even then I only saw them because I was cleaning the cage. If I'd been rolling around playing, I never would have noticed them. Thery're tiny! Smaller than grass ticks, by a mile. As I said, like red spider mite. For each bite, the welts were huge.
Sprays and repellents don't always work so well on arachnids - ticks, spiders & mites. Insect sprays are fomulated for insects, generally. Insects breathe through a spiracle system, like a set of tubes that allow air to diffuse into the creature's body. Their small size makes this respiration method viable.
But arachnids - they have a book lung system as well as the spiracle system. Book lungs are more complex and allow for more efficient gas exchange. That's why you can get some really big spiders in the world, bigger than most insects. Crabs & lobsters use a book lung breathing system.
So unless the chemicals have been devised to work on a book lung system, all an insect spray or repellent is likely to do, is make a spider cranky. No thanks!
So check the labelling, see if the product is formulated for arachnids too.
Marg
The multiple nature of it makes me think chiggers rather than ticks. I got a dose of chiggers, I had a dozen of the things, all in the places where my clothing was tighter - wasitbands, wrist bands etc. Under boobs. I had been crawling around on the ground, cleaning out a broody cage no longer used by the mother hen and her chicks. I saw the little beasties, looking like red spider mites, crawling through the dirt, but I didn't realise they were biting me until it was too late. And I only saw a couple of them, but when I went back to look more thoroughly after the bites, thsat is when I realised that for the ones I saw, there would have been many more. Even then I only saw them because I was cleaning the cage. If I'd been rolling around playing, I never would have noticed them. Thery're tiny! Smaller than grass ticks, by a mile. As I said, like red spider mite. For each bite, the welts were huge.
Sprays and repellents don't always work so well on arachnids - ticks, spiders & mites. Insect sprays are fomulated for insects, generally. Insects breathe through a spiracle system, like a set of tubes that allow air to diffuse into the creature's body. Their small size makes this respiration method viable.
But arachnids - they have a book lung system as well as the spiracle system. Book lungs are more complex and allow for more efficient gas exchange. That's why you can get some really big spiders in the world, bigger than most insects. Crabs & lobsters use a book lung breathing system.
So unless the chemicals have been devised to work on a book lung system, all an insect spray or repellent is likely to do, is make a spider cranky. No thanks!
So check the labelling, see if the product is formulated for arachnids too.
Marg
tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
Marg- Deer ticks are fairly common in NY State, we account for something like 40% of the yearly Lyme disease infections in the US. I think the doctor is wise to err on the side of caution and treat them as probable tick bites. As for the chiggers... the bites are itchy but not that all out maddening itch brought on by chiggers. Also, there are no bites above her mid thigh... or right about my knee height which is the area of the body most seem to receive bites from ticks.
I told husband to make sure she wears long pants and long sleeves plus socks and a hat when going to the state park. And use the bug spray as back-up.
I told husband to make sure she wears long pants and long sleeves plus socks and a hat when going to the state park. And use the bug spray as back-up.
tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
SRL- We took pictures... the doctor found them helpful in diagnosis'ing them as probable tick bites.
Marguerite
Active Member
I have a theory, unconfimred of course, that the location of tick bites on a human is related to the most common alternative host species in the area.
In our area, unusual for the rest of Sydney, we have two possible vector species - deer (Rusa species mostly) and bandicoots. Bandicoots are endangered and not very common. deer are in plague proportions. The local deer-lovers are insistent that deer are not the mian vector, but when you have plagues of ticks corresponding to plagues of deer and not a hint of a bandicoot burrow, my feelnigs are that deer are the most likely vector in thie case.
When difficult child 3 had his massive load of ticks, ALL were groin height or above. They were all hatchlings (the first hatching or larvae). The usual pattern is, the ticks hatch from the eggs then climb to whatever height they choose to, and "quest" or hang out with their little legs ready to grab onto the first likely host. difficult child 3's groin heignt was roughly corresponding to the top of a deer's legs. If a tick quested at that height, they would never meet up with a bandicoot since they are rat-sized and live on the ground.
However, a point to take into account with kids and tick bites - kids, unlike most adults, are not always bipedal. Kids at play often roll on the ground. So ticks questing at any height will find a kid an attractive host.
I do think the doctor treating it as Lyme is a sensible precaution. I didn't think multiple tick bites would produce multiple bulls-eye rash - I thought the rash was a separate thing not necessarily at the bite site (hence erythema MIGRANS).
Apart from the Lyme possibilities, treatment for tick or chiggers would be fairly similar, symptomatic and reactive. So of course you treat what even POSSIBLY needs treating, rather than waiting for the sky to fall in.
I do hope, in a way, it was not tick bite - then the risk of Lyme would be zero.
I remember the chiggers as being really itchy, but I suspect if I had been a kid, I might have been able to distract myself from it. Once I'd scratched the head out of the pustules, the itch changed. Again theory - the itch is a human physiological reaction which also deals with the parasitisation aspect of the chiggers bite, by removing the larval stage before it does any more damage.
I had a lot of tick bites as a kid. We had dogs, we had sheep, we had cats and we commonly had to search the animals (and ourselves) for ticks. We lost a few animals to ticks that got missed. Sheep, especially. I hated losing the half-grown lambs. Younger lambs were easier to search, their wool was still pale enough and short enough.
Whether Lyme Disease exists in Australia has been hotly debated. I don't believe it does, but there is the possibility that a related organism does exist and is tick-borne. People do get diagnosed with Lyme Disease here but only because the test is interpreted VERY loosely, more so than the test criteria recommend. And if you interpret it loosely enough, EVERYONE would test positive because we all have some form of Borellia organism in our mouths. People have been tested even where they don't remember having had a rash, or even can't remember a tick bite. Catch 22 logic gets used.
My concern for Australia - we are possibly missing something which needs independent research Occupational Therapist (OT) determine what it is, what it does and how to treat it, all because some people got obsessed with Lyme Disease and insisted IT wascausative.
However, in the US it's a different picture. Borrelia burdorferi was positively identified, described and a test for it developed, because it was found there. Therefore, it is highly appropriate to test for it and treat for it purely on the off-chance.
So if I express scepticism, please don't assume I mean it relates to you or to Duckie. It's purely down to my frustration for the simple option being chosen, when it's far less likely for us over here.
You sound like you've done absolutely everything you could do. Taking the photos is something we often forget to do, it's sensible to do it. So what if you have a few extra photos in your files? If you end up not needing them, or they're not relevant - no harm done. But if they could shed light on a diagnosis - then well done, you!
Marg
In our area, unusual for the rest of Sydney, we have two possible vector species - deer (Rusa species mostly) and bandicoots. Bandicoots are endangered and not very common. deer are in plague proportions. The local deer-lovers are insistent that deer are not the mian vector, but when you have plagues of ticks corresponding to plagues of deer and not a hint of a bandicoot burrow, my feelnigs are that deer are the most likely vector in thie case.
When difficult child 3 had his massive load of ticks, ALL were groin height or above. They were all hatchlings (the first hatching or larvae). The usual pattern is, the ticks hatch from the eggs then climb to whatever height they choose to, and "quest" or hang out with their little legs ready to grab onto the first likely host. difficult child 3's groin heignt was roughly corresponding to the top of a deer's legs. If a tick quested at that height, they would never meet up with a bandicoot since they are rat-sized and live on the ground.
However, a point to take into account with kids and tick bites - kids, unlike most adults, are not always bipedal. Kids at play often roll on the ground. So ticks questing at any height will find a kid an attractive host.
I do think the doctor treating it as Lyme is a sensible precaution. I didn't think multiple tick bites would produce multiple bulls-eye rash - I thought the rash was a separate thing not necessarily at the bite site (hence erythema MIGRANS).
Apart from the Lyme possibilities, treatment for tick or chiggers would be fairly similar, symptomatic and reactive. So of course you treat what even POSSIBLY needs treating, rather than waiting for the sky to fall in.
I do hope, in a way, it was not tick bite - then the risk of Lyme would be zero.
I remember the chiggers as being really itchy, but I suspect if I had been a kid, I might have been able to distract myself from it. Once I'd scratched the head out of the pustules, the itch changed. Again theory - the itch is a human physiological reaction which also deals with the parasitisation aspect of the chiggers bite, by removing the larval stage before it does any more damage.
I had a lot of tick bites as a kid. We had dogs, we had sheep, we had cats and we commonly had to search the animals (and ourselves) for ticks. We lost a few animals to ticks that got missed. Sheep, especially. I hated losing the half-grown lambs. Younger lambs were easier to search, their wool was still pale enough and short enough.
Whether Lyme Disease exists in Australia has been hotly debated. I don't believe it does, but there is the possibility that a related organism does exist and is tick-borne. People do get diagnosed with Lyme Disease here but only because the test is interpreted VERY loosely, more so than the test criteria recommend. And if you interpret it loosely enough, EVERYONE would test positive because we all have some form of Borellia organism in our mouths. People have been tested even where they don't remember having had a rash, or even can't remember a tick bite. Catch 22 logic gets used.
My concern for Australia - we are possibly missing something which needs independent research Occupational Therapist (OT) determine what it is, what it does and how to treat it, all because some people got obsessed with Lyme Disease and insisted IT wascausative.
However, in the US it's a different picture. Borrelia burdorferi was positively identified, described and a test for it developed, because it was found there. Therefore, it is highly appropriate to test for it and treat for it purely on the off-chance.
So if I express scepticism, please don't assume I mean it relates to you or to Duckie. It's purely down to my frustration for the simple option being chosen, when it's far less likely for us over here.
You sound like you've done absolutely everything you could do. Taking the photos is something we often forget to do, it's sensible to do it. So what if you have a few extra photos in your files? If you end up not needing them, or they're not relevant - no harm done. But if they could shed light on a diagnosis - then well done, you!
Marg
I am glad the doctor is being careful. Having the culture done is excellent. I have such a hard time getting any doctor to culture anything around here.
I know the culture can really help you find which antibiotics are best for taking care of our Duckie!!! I hope she isn't terribly miserable with all those itchy bites!
I know the culture can really help you find which antibiotics are best for taking care of our Duckie!!! I hope she isn't terribly miserable with all those itchy bites!
tiredmommy
Well-Known Member
FWIW, Marg, Duckie is so allergic to grass that she doesn't roll in it. She ended up getting a bad case of hives once after rolling down a grass covered hill once and she has refused to do so again. She even brings a sweatshirt to gym class when it's outside so she has something to sit on.
Susie- This office seems good about take cultures. I believe they may be regular reporters to the county health department so they will run a culture. They track everything... flu, strep, etc and always verify where she's been and her school/activities.
Lothlorien
Active Member
Hang onto those pictures. If she has any symptoms later, you can remind doctor of the bullseye rash with them.
Marguerite
Active Member
This doctor's practice sounds like one of the best, TM. Here's hoping you get some good news. Whatever they say, you should be able to have confidence in them.
Marg
Marg
