Guns. Woken up to 2 news stories here in the UK.

[AppleCori]

Solutions....

So, what can be done to curb violence/murders whether committed with a gun or a knife?

We have presidential candidates swarming all around right now.

What would you tell them if you could speak to one (any one of them, just to get the ideas out there).

I think we need to work on the mental health system/services.

I have heard it said on this board that our jails and prisons are doubling as mental health facilities. What can be done?

Any other ideas?

Oops, gotta head out to the ball game!

 

[dstc_99]

I firmly believe that all gun purchases should require background checks. I know this will not prevent people who are truly intent on getting a weapon from getting one but it could slow them down.

I firmly believe no one needs an assault rifle or Uzi. Unless they are law enforcement or military on duty.

I firmly believe we should have the right to own guns.

I also firmly believe people who do should be required to pass training classes on their initial purchase.

I also firmly believe we need a much better mental healthcare system to treat people with violent tendencies.

I also firmly believe we need improved prison systems and penalties for those using weapons to commit crimes.

No dang clue how to make all that work though. People are just to up in arms about it to find solutions at this point. Everybody is so worried they will lose their rights that no one can apply common sense.

 

[SuZir]

We have lots of guns, mostly long guns, though, and much less gun related violence than USA (we like to kill each others with knives instead.)

To buy a gun you need permission from police. To get one you need to tell why you need a gun, why you need a type of gun you are going to buy, how you plan to keep gun and you have to take basic psychological test that goes through mostly your attitudes. After passing that you have to talk with Police officer, your record is checked and you will get a buying permission. Licences are also easily revoked if you commit more serious crimes or crimes that suggest you may abuse substances.

If police officer is on doubt they may ask to provide other proof, like doctors note etc. But for everyone I know who have been buying guns it has been rather simple process. It tends to take couple weeks, depending how busy police is, but it is still accessible and in fact works quite well. And most criminals certainly do not have guns. For example over 95 % of robberies to grocery stores etc. are committed with knife, scissors or axe, or at times toy gun. It is very rare a street criminal would have a gun.

It is bit of bother, but if you have reasonably clean record and you have a need for a gun and you are about 'normal person' you will get a gun that you have a need for.

Handguns are more difficult to get, you basically need to be an avid target shooter, because 'protection' is not considered legitimate reason to own a gun, but that of course is just matter of policy.

 

[pasajes4]

SuZir, It makes more sense than our system. I am totally against guns in the home with kids. I have a good friend whose young child was killed when his older brother wanted to show a friend the gun. My father had a gun because of his job. My mother would not allow him to bring it in the house. He had to keep it in a locked safe in the locked trunk of his car.

 

[nerfherder]

I'm a very polite yet rabid supporter of second amendment rights. My thinking goes like this:

If you can guarantee that over the next 50 years, 100 years, into perpetuity the US government will remain at least as free as it is now, then I will agree with you that 2A is obsolete, that personal possession of firearms is unnecessary, and that we can just make them go away.

If you can guarantee that not just my children but my grandchildren, great grandchildren, all my relatives can trust that no government, lack of government or collapse of government will cause disaster (think Hurricane Katrina for a recent example) requiring protection without a law enforcement intervention that works - then I'll agree with you.

If you think that civilians are so outgunned by modern military that the idea of defending oneself from a government gone rogue is pointless, then you should talk to my mother about what she saw men and women with basic household possessions and a motley mismatched collection of firearms and ammunition were able to do to the German soldiers in the Warsaw Ghetto. And, as a friend has noted "right. you can't fight off a modern tank. But all you have to do is wait - eventually they have to (go potty) or eat or do repairs."

I'm not advocating any kind of revolution. Far from it! But I'd rather my descendants were socialized to say "(special phrase with that special F word)" and fight than comply with "Get in the line on the right, please."

Self defense is barely an issue here. I live in the country. Everyone has at least a shotgun for dealing with predators or feral dogs. And if I call the sheriff because of a safety/security problem, he or the deputies are likely ten or fifteen minutes away. And our sheriff is pleased to run the Concealed Carry classes (which require a background check) as he feels a high percentage of legal carry makes his job easier, keeps crime low - the majority of crimes involving violence in our county involve meth or alcohol abuse (the latter being very prevalent on the reservations, sadly enough.)

Firearm laws that work in NYC won't work out in the country. New York State is having a compliance problem now because of all the urban legislators thinking that what's good for them is good for the entire state - which is large by East Coast US standards, and mostly rural.

Mass stabbings are happening in China. One just happened in the US, in the same time frame as the shooting in Louisiana. Two boys just stabbed their family to death, with one survivor. It's not a fun thing to think about or write about.

There. That's my two cents.

 

[Lil]

Agree with IC. There wouldn't be any mass killings with a knife.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/
Yes, there were 10, but they also killed 29 and injured 130.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/04/a-note-on-mass-victim-knife-attacks/
This one has a list of numerous knife attacks mass murders/injuries...just realized this was already posted by MyFriendKita above....

Not quite sure why anyone would say the claim that you could kill a number of people in a dark theater with a knife is absurd. It absolutely could be done - two or three at least. Yes, guns are faster and easier but they're also noisy...knives are silent and stealthier. It doesn't take a lot of strength to kill someone with a knife if you aim for the right spots.

People have been killing each other since they had to use big rocks to get the job done.

All weapons are bad if they are being wielded by the evil or the stupid - surely we all agree on that.

 

[Tanya M]

All weapons are bad if they are being wielded by the evil or the stupid - surely we all agree on that.

Lil, I think you pretty much summed it up here. Well said!!

 

[BusynMember]

I have been puzzled at the U.S. love affair with guns since a was little and nobody in my area messed with guns. Yes, I saw it on television, but it was just like watching Western movies.I didn't know anyone who hunted until I moved from my city I grew up in. I'm really ok with rifles for those who shoot for food, but that's it. Personal opinion only.

In our culture it is in the constitution that we can own a gun and even the most crazy individuals can usual get one "hot" and use it. They are so around. No, I don't think criminals get guns in places where there are few, like the UK.

I like my chances with a knife rather than a gun, because a bullet is much faster and people are less apt to confront and attack somebody with a gun than a knife.

I would never keep a loaded gun in my house. I know of two young boys who put a gun in their mouths to kill themselves, Jumpers acquaintances. One was the son of a cop who kept a gun out. I'm sorry but shame on him. He has certainly seen what can happen and he k new his son was disturbed. It was no secret. Everyone knew. Still, Jumper liked him and his girlfriend had been with him the night before with no clue it would be his last night alive. I like his c =hances better if he had tried to stab himself. It usually takes longer too a nd dying bodies make noises like gurgling so people can figure out somebody is hurt.

If the government turned the military against the people to overtake us, they would win, not the few armed who actually knew how to shoot straight.

If your Difficult Child was in my house stealing something, I'd rather call 9-1-1 and not get so scared with my loaded gun in hand that I killed your child, and this happens a lot. Every death is somebody's child and probably the poor mother did all she could for t his child.

There have been no mass school stabbings where disturbed kids knived twenty kids to death. You can hide well from a knife because it isn't a long distance killer, like a bullet is.

I don't even like bringing this up, but some of our members don't know this. A board members son was shot in his own home by a cop. No, he wasn't going after the cop. This actually is not uncommon. Cops are just human and get overstressed and some, the truth be told, are power hungry, which is the wrong reason to become a cop, but it happens. My daughter Jumper is going to be an officer in blue and knows a lot of cops as friends as she tries to get the heads up on her chosen profession. She feels some are "scary to think they are cops." Others are "awesome people who want to help those in danger." Her words.

I'm not saying nobody ever dies by knife. If they want to legislate "knife control" I think it's kind of silly and a reaction to gun control, but I also have nothing against making our country safer for innocents.

Drive by kniving anyone? Haha.

Agree to respectfully disagree with those who disagree with me. I think other countries (every other country) has it right and we have it wrong. What I and many middle class Americans do is make sure we live in places where there are not routine gun battles, but some people can't afford not to live in a war zone and have bullets that go t hrough t heir windows (this actually happened in the apartment of one of my foster child', and it happened more than once with many close calls).

Guns don't kill.

People with guns kill the most.

Yes, I realize I won't get many stars (shrug).

 

[pasajes4]

Last night,less than 1/2 mile from my home, a 19 year old was shot to death in his car a 15 year old was also critically wounded. This happened in front of an elementary school. I doubt if a knife would have simultaneously killed one and wounded one. This is a popular spot for skateboarders, dog walkers, mothers pushing strollers, and elderly people out for a walk. If this had happened a tad bit earlier, there would have been many more casualties.

 

[MyFriendKita]

The point wasn't whether you could kill more people with guns vs. knives, it was that, yes, you can still have mass killings with knives. Actually, the biggest school massacre in the U.S. was accomplished without either one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

That the U.S. has more gun violence than any other is incorrect. There are countries that have more gun violence than the U.S., so I hope no one is claiming those countries have it right:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

You can ban guns, ban knives, ban rocks, ban every item anyone has ever used to kill. That still won't solve the problem. There still will be someone somewhere who comes up with a way to kill. Does it really matter if it's two victims vs. twenty?

 

[pasajes4]

We seem to be becoming an increasingly violent world. You are correct violence is violence and even one unnecessary death is one to many regardless of how or where it is done. The topic, I believe. was originally about gun control in the U.S.

 

[witzend]

JW, so those 1, 2, 3, & 4 year olds, et al, who accidentally shoot their siblings, friends, family, et al are generally generally dangerous people? Would you feel just as comfortable diasarming a 3 year old with a loaded 9 millimeter as disarming a 3 year old with a kitchen knife? If so, why? If not, why not?

Let me remind you that the Aurora theater shooter got over 70 in less than 4 minutes, do you think he would have gotten that far thar quickly with a knife?

I'm pretty sick of the Nazi argument, too. That didn't happen on day one or even year one. It happened decades after Hitler took power. Don't like Nazis and White Supremecists? Stop re-electing people who dehumanize entire religious classes & ethnic backgrounds as their primary talking points.

 

[MyFriendKita]

If the premise is that we should ban all guns to keep 1, 2, 3, and 4 year olds from harming themselves or others, then we should also ban all medications because sometimes 1, 2, 3, and 4 year olds get into them and poison themselves. Talk about absurd.

 

[pasajes4]

I believe I said this is a contentious subject. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but this is getting close to becoming ugly. I believe that those who feel strongly one way or the other will more than likely not concede their point of view.

 

[Lil]

The cases where 1-4 year olds get their hands on guns fall into my category of "stupid"...NOT the children, but the owners. You don't leave a loaded weapon (or a knife, medication, broken glass, lighters or any other potentially hazardous item) where a toddler can get a hold of it. For that matter, guns should be carefully stored even if the kid is old enough to know better.

It sounds like a lot of people here know people who have children who have died from firearms. I do too. A woman I knew (close friend of a friend) lost her 14 year old son, who was in his room showing off his hunting rifle to a friend and it was loaded. This horrific and senseless death could have been so easily avoided if they'd used simple gun-safety rules of making sure guns were unloaded when not in use and NOT handling it improperly. It was DRILLED into me that you NEVER put your finger on a trigger or point a gun at anything you don't intend to put a bullet in - even if you are SURE it is unloaded.

This is a serious problem. Gun control won't solve it.

My father kept a loaded 44 Magnum revolver under his bed in a wooden case. There was no lock on the case. My brother and I never, ever considered touching that gun. I remember being home alone with a girlfriend when I was about 13 and we watched scary movies and scared ourselves to death. We got butcher knives from the kitchen for "protection". It never occurred to me to get that gun.

Not all kids are like that...if anyone knows that, it's the people on this board. But we were. Even my D C was the type that had no interest in guns. He wasn't (when he was young) one who would even consider going through our things. Had he been a different kind of kid, there would have been a different safekeeping involved in Jabber's gun.

There is not any person here who has said guns are wonderful fuzzy toys that should be embraced. They've merely pointed out that people prone to do violence will find a way to do it whether guns are legal or not. If guns are illegal, they'll use knives, axes, explosives - or most likely - illegal guns. Drive-by shootings are horrible things. Does anyone here actually believe gang-bangers are using their own, properly purchased and registered weapons? Now that's absurd.

When you get right down to it, there is NO way to successfully ban guns in the United States. The country is too big and there are too many guns. Short of declaring martial law, throwing out the basic freedom that this country was founded on, and literally going door to door to take guns, you will never get them. Let's face it, in this country that would mean war, plain and simple. There are too many people with illegal guns or who have the survivalist SHTF mentality who have (sometimes stockpiled) weapons and who will fight to their dying breath to keep them.

So what do you do to stop gun violence? I don't know. The vast majority of people who commit crimes like the theater shootings are mentally ill...not legally insane, but clearly ill. So better mental health would help. But people won't go if they don't want help. We on this board know that better than most. Much gun violence is from gangs and other criminals. I have no idea how to deal with that. My best suggestion was already made. Tougher gun-crime laws.

 

[witzend]

Exactly what proof do you have that gun control won't solve it? It absolutely solved it in both Ireland and in Australia where politicians had the guts to stand up and say, "We're coming house to house and picking up your handguns, you can have a rifle for varmint control & a hunting rifle" after the slaughter of innocent children.

If your thoughts as to "gun control won't solve this issue" is that registering owners isn't enough, you're right. If you're thinking that people won't give up their guns then it's up to people who are sick and tired of innocent people dying every single day from dumb and/or evil people with guns to stand up and say "ENOUGH!" If you're thinking that bad guys will still have guns, you're right - but only for a while. Bad guys get caught and lose their guns. Bad guys die and family members with an ounce of sense turn them in. But "Gun control won't solve this issue" is denial and a stark refusal to try to solve it. Plain and simple. Unless you have some other plan that's real?

 

[BusynMember]

Last night,less than 1/2 mile from my home, a 19 year old was shot to death in his car a 15 year old was also critically wounded. This happened in front of an elementary school. I doubt if a knife would have simultaneously killed one and wounded one. This is a popular spot for skateboarders, dog walkers, mothers pushing strollers, and elderly people out for a walk. If this had happened a tad bit earlier, there would have been many more casualties.

This is my entire point about guns. Nothing beats guns for killing people. If anything else was as efficient those who feel the need to own a weapon would be just as happy welding a knife in case of an intruder or other danger. But it's guns they want because they are the easiest way to kill somebody or many people.

And kill they do. There are many mentally ill people, unstable people, power hungry people, and vigilantes in the world and in my opinion none of them should have guns. But in our country it is so easy to get a gun on the street, anyone can get one cheap. If you truly believe a knife is as lethal as a gun, keep a knife under your bed instead of a loaded gun. It's safer.

Just saying...

 

[InsaneCdn]

That last article... 24 wounded, 5 critical, none dead.
If that had been a gun, it would likely have been multiple dead and more critical.

Yes, you can attack multiple people with a knife. In general, the carnage is less, including fewer dead.

 

[MyFriendKita]

If you're thinking that bad guys will still have guns, you're right - but only for a while. Bad guys get caught and lose their guns.

I'm curious. If you believe that would solve the problem, why not just do that now? Catch all the bad guys and take their guns. Problem solved. Except for all of those knife - wielding bad guys, but we've decided they're not nearly as dangerous.

 

[BusynMember]

If knives are so dangerous, why do you prefer a gun? Anyone want to take a stab at that? Why not just carry a knife with you and keep a butcher knife out by your bed at night? What's the difference? You are making it seem like there is no difference.

Many people who are not really "bad guys" kill people while drinking or domestically or under high pressure or during mental illness...or kill themselves if they are sick.

Again, if I had a "bad guy" after me, my weapon of choice, between a gun and a knife, would be a knife.

There is a reason no other countries residents are begging for every civilian to have the option of owning guns and even concealing them.

And we can do knife control too. I have no problem with that. If the government wants to overtake us, that would require the military to be agreeable and if they are, the few armed and capable (capable being the important word here) won't be able to stop it. I'm inclined to think this won't happen, but, hey, that's me. I do not think those who are pro-gun are horrible people. I simply think the knife argument is silly and a diversion because everything knows that guns are the best and fastest way to kill many people at one time.

I'm fine with guns for sport, like hunting for food or target shooting, just not at people.