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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 410491" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Welcome. This is a good place to be when nothing else in your area seems to help.</p><p> </p><p>Some thoughts - the ADHD alone could explain a lot of this, especially given the other possible problems he's been trying to cope with. The weird behaviour, the mood swings - I suggest you keep a daily notebook of his behaviour and mood. In the diary, note what medications he takes and when. Any reported problems - list them. Note times when there are issues. For a while, avoid interacting unless it is important. My suspicion is, you might find the medications are causing at least in part, the mood swings and strange behaviours. It certainly needs to be considered so you can check it out, rule it out if you're sure it's not rebound. Because if it IS rebound, or a reaction, then the sooner you change his medications the sooner the problems will ease. Those problems. There are still a lot of others.</p><p> </p><p>Your husband has to back off though. Big time. Not that I don't feel sympathy for his position, but I suspect it is not helping, it is probably making this kid a lot worse. You will be feeling like you're the meat in the sandwich with all this, and having you trying to hose things down while your husband is looking for a switch, is only adding to the confusion in your son's head (and anxiety) and the conflict between you. It's not just him, it's not just you, it's the bad combination of you and husband in conflict to such an extent over this, that aggravates the problems for your boys.</p><p> </p><p>You need to change your mindset on discipline. Not that you've been wrong, just not the right fit for this boy. He clearly needs help, he clearly needs a lot of hands-on (and is resisting it big time) but harsh discipline with these kids often undermines progress, so you end up going backwards if you try it.</p><p> </p><p>You've been lurking, so you will know we often recommend "<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0061906190/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1299079510&sr=1-1" target="_blank">The Explosive Child</a>" by Ross Greene. Read it, get your husband to read it. It seems counter-intuitive, but it can turn around a kid like this, at least so far as the kid is reacting to an increasingly confusing environment (and the school is part of the confusion here too - you have no control over that).</p><p> </p><p>Your first step is to try to get into your son's head. What is making him tick when he does this, or that? Part of this is to recognise that when he swears and gets angry, there is a reason that makes sense to him. I'm not saying it's acceptable, only that at some level it will be understandable. If you can work out where it is coming from, then deal with the source and not the result. Of course we don't want our kids swearing at us, but we need to find out where the anger and frustration is coming from, and work on that first. Then after the cause is no longer an issue, you can begin to work on the swearing. </p><p> </p><p>I'm going to take a stab in the dark here - when he was tearing up his books and yelling, "You can't make me, what are you going to do about it?" my guess is, he was in conflict with either a teacher at school, or you trying to get him to do his homework. I'm guessing it was perhaps a writing task, or possibly a maths task in an exercise he was struggling with, could not understand. Or it was at a time when he had had enough for the day and wanted it all to stop. And someone (you? A teacher?) was insisting hard and trying to force the issue. The reaction you describe is very, very familiar - it is the reaction of an individual who feels pushed to the edge. An adult behaving like this would usually only do so when really, really aggravated beyond belief. But this is a child. What is more, it is a child whose coping skills and social skills are not in line with his peers. He is going to be more inclined to use this behaviour, and if it works for him (ie if he can 'win') then he will learn to do it again next time. It's not calculated, it is merely a learned response. And if he is bright, he will learn fast.</p><p> </p><p>When you deal with his outbursts by physically blocking him and standing your ground, you may feel it is the only thing you can do. But in this case, you are actively teaching him how to be oppositional, because it is what you are doing to him. Kids like this learn by imitating you. You then find your own parenting techniques being used back on you. My example here is when easy child 2/difficult child 2 was about 2-3 years old. She had asked me for a fourth cup of juice and I said, "No, it is water's turn." She took a sip of the water I gave her, then stood with her hands on her hips and glared at me. "I told you I wanted JUICE! Why don't you do what you're told?" Punishing the "insolence" would have got me nowhere. I did try - it escalated the problem greatly because to her, I was being unfair to punish her, for behaviour I came out with constantly.</p><p> </p><p>From this you can see that, if whatever you do as discipline is what he will do back, then getting physical with him is going to actively teach him to get physical with you. </p><p> </p><p>There is good news though, especially for your husband. You and he are perhaps both focussed on the belief that you need to clamp down harder when he is more difficult. But this is often what makes them worse. If you change your approach and ease back, focussing on causes and letting some stuff go for now, you may find improvement to some degree, fairly quickly. Again - follow "Explosive Child" in this, so your efforts are coordinated and directed. Planning ahead is the way to go here, as well as working with your son when there is a problem. The aim is prevention, being proactive and not reactive. </p><p> </p><p>Now we look at diagnosis. Some of the things you began your post with, indicate that before the ADHD issues were a problem, there were other interesting characteristics. That indicates that it could be more than ADHD. it IS more at the moment. I really hate the term ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) but it does describe a lot of what you have listed here. It is, I believe, caused by a child imitating discipline methods as a coping strategy, for a start.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Curious, touchy, feely - we had that with difficult child 3 especially. difficult child 1 was clingy while difficult child 3 would take off and go exploring, would only accept physical contact on his terms. He was affectionate but he had to initiate contact. easy child 2/difficult child 2 was so affectionate and touchy-feely, that she was often inappropriate, right up into her teens. I would walk through a room and be grabbed by her for a hug. I could be chopping onions and I would be grabbed for a hug - no looking first to make sure I was not in danger of cutting myself... pure impulse. And even now, I have seen her with her friends (female) - she is very demonstrative, I have seen her snuggling up to a female friend. Socially unusual here in Australia for friends of the same sex to make this sort of physical contact.</p><p>Where this is coming from in these three kids - it's not ADHD, it's Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). And if you have Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in the mix, it complicates the picture. It can be good news also, to an extent. But if you don't manage to find a way through to your kid, it can mean added problems. </p><p> </p><p>If he is feeling stressed, he is likely to go to pieces so fast, you get hit by the shrapnel. Other parents who don't experience this, don't get it or they blame you. ANd while you have more control than you realise, it is not in the way you traditionally expect and you have to make changes in your responses, in order to see changes in his. You have to get inventive. You also have to become your son's facilitator and support and not his obstacle. </p><p> </p><p>Your son cooperated for a stranger on the phone - that is interesting and actually, a very good sign. It means that he is basically a good kid, but is not able to communicate to you why he is struggling. He is also not coping with you blocking his bad actions as your way of handling him. it is not only not working, it is setting you guys up for really bad failure. It might work for a child who is occasionally wayward but otherwise 'normal'. It is not working for this boy.</p><p> </p><p>Get in his head.</p><p> </p><p>Read the book. Get your husband to read it too, or if he can't, get him to lurk here, join here or whatever. My husband did that and it has really helped us a great deal. Anything I have said about your husband here - I am not critical of his position, he is reacting the way any bloke would. The woman he loves is out of her depth and he wants to fix it for her. But I am telling you form our own experience - it won't work for him that way, not with this kid. But other ways do work. They're not a cure, but any improvement can make it a bit easier to know what you're coping with.</p><p> </p><p>I'm starting to repeat myself (that's what happens when your boys come and talk at you - difficult child 1 just dropped in for a visit too) so I'll let you absorb this and see if any of it gels for you.</p><p> </p><p>Let me know what you think, and shoot back any questions.</p><p> </p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 410491, member: 1991"] Welcome. This is a good place to be when nothing else in your area seems to help. Some thoughts - the ADHD alone could explain a lot of this, especially given the other possible problems he's been trying to cope with. The weird behaviour, the mood swings - I suggest you keep a daily notebook of his behaviour and mood. In the diary, note what medications he takes and when. Any reported problems - list them. Note times when there are issues. For a while, avoid interacting unless it is important. My suspicion is, you might find the medications are causing at least in part, the mood swings and strange behaviours. It certainly needs to be considered so you can check it out, rule it out if you're sure it's not rebound. Because if it IS rebound, or a reaction, then the sooner you change his medications the sooner the problems will ease. Those problems. There are still a lot of others. Your husband has to back off though. Big time. Not that I don't feel sympathy for his position, but I suspect it is not helping, it is probably making this kid a lot worse. You will be feeling like you're the meat in the sandwich with all this, and having you trying to hose things down while your husband is looking for a switch, is only adding to the confusion in your son's head (and anxiety) and the conflict between you. It's not just him, it's not just you, it's the bad combination of you and husband in conflict to such an extent over this, that aggravates the problems for your boys. You need to change your mindset on discipline. Not that you've been wrong, just not the right fit for this boy. He clearly needs help, he clearly needs a lot of hands-on (and is resisting it big time) but harsh discipline with these kids often undermines progress, so you end up going backwards if you try it. You've been lurking, so you will know we often recommend "[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0061906190/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1299079510&sr=1-1"]The Explosive Child[/URL]" by Ross Greene. Read it, get your husband to read it. It seems counter-intuitive, but it can turn around a kid like this, at least so far as the kid is reacting to an increasingly confusing environment (and the school is part of the confusion here too - you have no control over that). Your first step is to try to get into your son's head. What is making him tick when he does this, or that? Part of this is to recognise that when he swears and gets angry, there is a reason that makes sense to him. I'm not saying it's acceptable, only that at some level it will be understandable. If you can work out where it is coming from, then deal with the source and not the result. Of course we don't want our kids swearing at us, but we need to find out where the anger and frustration is coming from, and work on that first. Then after the cause is no longer an issue, you can begin to work on the swearing. I'm going to take a stab in the dark here - when he was tearing up his books and yelling, "You can't make me, what are you going to do about it?" my guess is, he was in conflict with either a teacher at school, or you trying to get him to do his homework. I'm guessing it was perhaps a writing task, or possibly a maths task in an exercise he was struggling with, could not understand. Or it was at a time when he had had enough for the day and wanted it all to stop. And someone (you? A teacher?) was insisting hard and trying to force the issue. The reaction you describe is very, very familiar - it is the reaction of an individual who feels pushed to the edge. An adult behaving like this would usually only do so when really, really aggravated beyond belief. But this is a child. What is more, it is a child whose coping skills and social skills are not in line with his peers. He is going to be more inclined to use this behaviour, and if it works for him (ie if he can 'win') then he will learn to do it again next time. It's not calculated, it is merely a learned response. And if he is bright, he will learn fast. When you deal with his outbursts by physically blocking him and standing your ground, you may feel it is the only thing you can do. But in this case, you are actively teaching him how to be oppositional, because it is what you are doing to him. Kids like this learn by imitating you. You then find your own parenting techniques being used back on you. My example here is when easy child 2/difficult child 2 was about 2-3 years old. She had asked me for a fourth cup of juice and I said, "No, it is water's turn." She took a sip of the water I gave her, then stood with her hands on her hips and glared at me. "I told you I wanted JUICE! Why don't you do what you're told?" Punishing the "insolence" would have got me nowhere. I did try - it escalated the problem greatly because to her, I was being unfair to punish her, for behaviour I came out with constantly. From this you can see that, if whatever you do as discipline is what he will do back, then getting physical with him is going to actively teach him to get physical with you. There is good news though, especially for your husband. You and he are perhaps both focussed on the belief that you need to clamp down harder when he is more difficult. But this is often what makes them worse. If you change your approach and ease back, focussing on causes and letting some stuff go for now, you may find improvement to some degree, fairly quickly. Again - follow "Explosive Child" in this, so your efforts are coordinated and directed. Planning ahead is the way to go here, as well as working with your son when there is a problem. The aim is prevention, being proactive and not reactive. Now we look at diagnosis. Some of the things you began your post with, indicate that before the ADHD issues were a problem, there were other interesting characteristics. That indicates that it could be more than ADHD. it IS more at the moment. I really hate the term ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) but it does describe a lot of what you have listed here. It is, I believe, caused by a child imitating discipline methods as a coping strategy, for a start. Curious, touchy, feely - we had that with difficult child 3 especially. difficult child 1 was clingy while difficult child 3 would take off and go exploring, would only accept physical contact on his terms. He was affectionate but he had to initiate contact. easy child 2/difficult child 2 was so affectionate and touchy-feely, that she was often inappropriate, right up into her teens. I would walk through a room and be grabbed by her for a hug. I could be chopping onions and I would be grabbed for a hug - no looking first to make sure I was not in danger of cutting myself... pure impulse. And even now, I have seen her with her friends (female) - she is very demonstrative, I have seen her snuggling up to a female friend. Socially unusual here in Australia for friends of the same sex to make this sort of physical contact. Where this is coming from in these three kids - it's not ADHD, it's Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD). And if you have Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) in the mix, it complicates the picture. It can be good news also, to an extent. But if you don't manage to find a way through to your kid, it can mean added problems. If he is feeling stressed, he is likely to go to pieces so fast, you get hit by the shrapnel. Other parents who don't experience this, don't get it or they blame you. ANd while you have more control than you realise, it is not in the way you traditionally expect and you have to make changes in your responses, in order to see changes in his. You have to get inventive. You also have to become your son's facilitator and support and not his obstacle. Your son cooperated for a stranger on the phone - that is interesting and actually, a very good sign. It means that he is basically a good kid, but is not able to communicate to you why he is struggling. He is also not coping with you blocking his bad actions as your way of handling him. it is not only not working, it is setting you guys up for really bad failure. It might work for a child who is occasionally wayward but otherwise 'normal'. It is not working for this boy. Get in his head. Read the book. Get your husband to read it too, or if he can't, get him to lurk here, join here or whatever. My husband did that and it has really helped us a great deal. Anything I have said about your husband here - I am not critical of his position, he is reacting the way any bloke would. The woman he loves is out of her depth and he wants to fix it for her. But I am telling you form our own experience - it won't work for him that way, not with this kid. But other ways do work. They're not a cure, but any improvement can make it a bit easier to know what you're coping with. I'm starting to repeat myself (that's what happens when your boys come and talk at you - difficult child 1 just dropped in for a visit too) so I'll let you absorb this and see if any of it gels for you. Let me know what you think, and shoot back any questions. Marg [/QUOTE]
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