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<blockquote data-quote="HowMuchLonger" data-source="post: 410681" data-attributes="member: 11280"><p>Ok, it's morning which is my quiet alone time so I have more time to respond to everyone.</p><p> </p><p>StepTo2, I also think there is more than ADHD going on...I had mentioned ODD to a social worker who informed me that they would treat that the same as they would ADHD..so having that already diagnosed is pretty much the same thing. But I'd have to think there would be a difference. Perhaps not in medications, but maybe dosage, or perhaps adding a second one, or even just discipline approaches? I'm not exactly sure what a neuropsychologist is? I'm guessing maybe we have a different name for them here. He has spoken to a therapist but we mainly stick with our pediatrician for medications/advice right now. She feels we're OK. And in a way I guess she's right...for the most part we get through the day, but it's these random seemingly unprovoked outbursts that still aren't being addressed. </p><p> </p><p>JJJ, after yesterday's meltdown my first thought when I couldn't reach my husband was to call either an ambulance or the police but that scared me almost more than dealing with him did. I think perhaps if it does happen again, I may have to go that route though. In the heat of the moment I'm ready to strangle him, kick him out, tell him exactly what I'm thinking (I HATE THIS, I HATE YOU), but afterwards...he's just my little boy...a 9 year old baby....He'd kill me for telling anyone, but he still sucks his thumb and has a piece of fluff he rubs on his face for comfort, and will still come in my room after a nightmare or during thunderstorms kind of kid...and then for that foul language and HATE to come out of his mouth..it's just so contradictory. I would love though for someone else to witness these meltdowns. Even his dad has only seen/heard a partial one over the phone. I love your idea about time with the other kids. My oldest is almost 18 and understands the situation. It doesn't make him like his brother any more. My youngest seems to almost target the older boy..I think because if he can engage my oldest, it's pretty much always the oldest getting in trouble as he "should know better". My middle son is a very tender hearted sensitive kid...if the youngest gets in trouble, the middle son cries as well. One day difficult child 3 threatened to kill himself. It took me 30 mins to calm difficult child 3 down...but another 4 hours to console difficult child 2.</p><p> </p><p>Marguerite I totally appreciate you taking the time to post all the useful information. Some we've done, some hadn't thought of. I have been keeping a log for myself and his pediatrician in regards to moods/behaviours etc to keep track of how the medications are working. I've PORED over them trying to find a link, a commonality, anything to help us figure out the triggers with no luck. No overlapping foods, circumstances, school days. It's just so random and unpredictable which makes it worse. I know when he was on Ritalin the rebound (is that that same as crash?) effect when the medications would wear off was terrible. He would get that manic silliness, or the other extreme very violent and raging for no reason. We then tried dexedrine...that was a little bit better, but the crash between dosages (morning and afternoon) was very challenging for the school. We switched to Adderall on the Christmas break. It's the SR version so only one a day and it seems to last longer than the other two did. He's doing much better at school in every category. The problem is there's still the underlying "animal" just waiting to come out...everyone can feel and sense it. He gets the look on his face, or the tone of his voice changes (gets lower and more drawn out and slower), or there is sometimes the manic silliness. The silliness is almost (to me) a warning or a challenge he puts out. Like, "oh yeah, see if you can handle this and if you dont' get annoyed i'll ramp it up until you do" We had this yesterday and when he couldn't engage me that's when the violence, raging started. I tried to use humour to diffuse, but it made it worse. That seems to be the problem here is that sometimes things work and sometimes they do the complete opposite so you're always walking on eggshells and unsure of yourself. How does a 9 year old gain so much POWER over people???</p><p> </p><p>I agree with you on my husband backing off. I don't want to sugar coat anything but I also don't want to make him look like the bad guy. He has done a complete 180 in his attitude and own behaviours over the past year. He usually dealt with this with a spanking and fairly long punishment (a week with no outside time). When that was obvious it wasn't working I worked hard at convincing him we needed to do more, listen more, talk more and CALM DOWN. It's almost a blessing that most of our issues occur when he's at work as he has time to process and think about it and come home after work in a much calmer state. He's very old school "you WILL respect me, don't you EVER treat your mother like that..etc" and it's been almost as hard a road for him changing his own behaviour and impulse to spank first ask questions later. He's still a work in progress as well <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> I think part of the problem is he was always so strict that I laid back and almost became the "jellyfish parent" (Barbara Coloroso) and that has added confusion. I'm trying really hard to get to a good middle ground and pull my husband there with me. For the most part we're on the same page, but the overt and disgusting disrespect still has his hackles up. </p><p> </p><p>I have read the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0061906190/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1299079510&sr=1-1" target="_blank">Explosive Child </a>years ago for difficult child 2. I'll be honest, we've not had many problems with him for several years, so I've abandoned or forgotten most of the theories. I will have to pick up a copy again and see how I can use it for difficult child 3.</p><p> </p><p>The "getting in his head" is what has us all stumbling. There seems to be no rhyme or reason other than to just antagonize and make everyone miserable. I sometimes feel that the happier anyone is, the more he tries to make them unhappy. One of his biggest problems is talking. He shuts down when in the rage and won't listen or talk reasonably (which I know is normal)...but it makes it very hard. I feel like after we've got him calm he will then share his feelings but I feel he's making stuff up. For example with yesterday's meltdown he claims it's because he hates waking up in the morning..it's rough for him. I can get that and deal with that, but why then have you had NO problems the past 300 mornings???? Or he'll say "it's because my mom doesn't do anything with me..she's always working or on the computer". This will be after me spending every waking moment with him, quitting my job to stay home for him, volunteering in his classroom 5 days a week etc etc. Another one we hear often is "it's because of easy child or difficult child 2"....when easy child was away for the summer working and difficult child 2 is outside playing. If we so much as put a seed of an idea in his head he runs with it, so it feels made up and fake. I think he may be having problems knowing himself why he does it, so just waits for an opportunity to jump on an excuse. Yesterday he spoke with a social worker on the crisis line and I could hear her say "did you sleep well last night?" and that was it..he was off and running with this newest story of how he hates mornings and can't sleep etc. Instead of ignoring it we jumped on it ourselves and part of his consequences for yesterday's antics were to figure out a way to avoid this in the future. We came up with him going to bed 1/2 hr earlier, and letting me know when I first come in to wake him whether this is a good or bad morning.</p><p> </p><p>*had to take a break for school*</p><p> </p><p>I too have worried my physical blocking or holding the door to his room will make matters worse, but the other option scares me more. He is extremely impulsive and reckless and will/has run out of the house to be gone for hours. At 9 yrs old that is UNacceptable and scary. </p><p> </p><p>I agree that cooperating with a complete stranger on the phone is a good thing (it could've become much worse if he hadn't), but that leads me to believe he is very much IN control of not only himself (there goes the diagnosis?) but of the situation? I don't know about that one yet. </p><p> </p><p>My husband and I have both tried finding out the reasons for refusing the medications. He's been on them since October and has only ever refused them twice (yesterday being the 2nd). He "claims" they taste bad, are gross, can't swallow etc...but again, it's a made up concept. The other 148 days he had no problem taking them when 'he wanted to' is the feeling I'm getting from him. </p><p> </p><p>We have here in Ontario schools what we call agendas. They are great books that come home every day with notes in from the teacher and students themselves. Behaviour, homework, upcoming events/projects etc. SOME teachers are awesome at filling these out, but interestingly enough, I find the biggest complainers of my son's bad behaviours are the ones LEAST willing to do the work and put something concrete down in these books!!! Frustrating! I had one teacher that would just put a sticker - green for good day, yellow for so-so, red for bad....but never write was was good or bad about it! I never knew how to consequence or talk to him about the day because I had no idea if red was him not finishing work, or something more serious like poking a kid in the eye with a pencil!! difficult child 3 has just finished a 7 week out of school program that deals with ONLY behaviours, strategies, tools etc for kids with behaviour issues at school. They go to a regular school for a regular school day but no academics...all strategies. He did awesome there, only a few hiccups at the end (I think he was anxious about transitioning back into his regular school). I knew he'd do great...almost didn't want to send him but never turn down an opportunity for help when it arises even if a waste of time :/</p><p> </p><p>I've been trying to answer all questions in order but I think I've mucked it up, hope this isn't too confusing! Marg I think you had mentioned/asked about the gap from birth to the 6/7 years old when behaviours started. As I was saying in my first post (but wandered off topic) he was a handful as a child. I was relieved when he started junior kindergarten just for some time to catch my breath! Never had any real 'behaviour' issues that I could see (although, I once had a family member say "I dont know why you guys are so worried about difficult child 2 when it's difficult child 3 (then easy child) you need to worry about - she must've seen something we didn't). JK went GREAT! He is an extremely intelligent kid (which makes it harder because he knows how to manipulate and con) and did well, was popular and well liked by all. SK, same thing. His teacher was so taken by him she bought him an "extra special" xmas gift the other kids didn't get that she snuck to me after school before xmas break. Grade one again was awesome...until about the last month of school. Very little things but we were shocked as he had been such a great student with NO problems at school. From day ONE of grade 2 he was a menace. Suspended in the first week for threatening a child with scissors ("i was just handing them to him..."), Suspended one day after returning from suspension for telling teacher to "screw off" and flicking lights on and off in class and running through school with teachers chasing him....the rest of the year continued like this. I think out of 160 school days he was actually there for about 70..and of those I have NO clue how much time was spent in the office. Through all this he managed to pull all b's and two c's (!!??). I spoke with the teacher and she confirmed she ahdn't just "passed him on" he had really scored that high on the work he would get done.. "probably would've been straight A's if he'd been here...". Just a side note. difficult child 3 (and a few others) did so much mental damage to this teacher she ended up leaving after that year, her first, at the school <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /> Around mid-May the school ahd to call my work and get my supervisor to contact me. The message was simply "the police are on their way, not sure if you can get to the school on time...." AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I cried my eyes out all the way to school and threw up when I got out of the car. How can the police have to be called for a (then) 7 year old??? Anyhow, we got through and grade 3 was semi-good. We really thought we were on the right track, found the right disciplines, rewards, punishments, words etc. Then grade 4....suspended day two, day 5, day 10, brought a knife - 20 day suspension pending expulsion....right back to square one. Actually we were WAY beyond square one. They obviously decided not to expel (luckily the impulsive reckless kid kept it in hsi pocket and didn't pull it out). It was at that point we sought help and here we are today on Adderall</p><p> </p><p>Whew, I've wrote a book here...sorry guys. There's so much more and I keep hoping the more people I talk to someone will hear something that will be the red flag and I can change it and make everything better <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /> Unfortunately it hasn't happened yet.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="HowMuchLonger, post: 410681, member: 11280"] Ok, it's morning which is my quiet alone time so I have more time to respond to everyone. StepTo2, I also think there is more than ADHD going on...I had mentioned ODD to a social worker who informed me that they would treat that the same as they would ADHD..so having that already diagnosed is pretty much the same thing. But I'd have to think there would be a difference. Perhaps not in medications, but maybe dosage, or perhaps adding a second one, or even just discipline approaches? I'm not exactly sure what a neuropsychologist is? I'm guessing maybe we have a different name for them here. He has spoken to a therapist but we mainly stick with our pediatrician for medications/advice right now. She feels we're OK. And in a way I guess she's right...for the most part we get through the day, but it's these random seemingly unprovoked outbursts that still aren't being addressed. JJJ, after yesterday's meltdown my first thought when I couldn't reach my husband was to call either an ambulance or the police but that scared me almost more than dealing with him did. I think perhaps if it does happen again, I may have to go that route though. In the heat of the moment I'm ready to strangle him, kick him out, tell him exactly what I'm thinking (I HATE THIS, I HATE YOU), but afterwards...he's just my little boy...a 9 year old baby....He'd kill me for telling anyone, but he still sucks his thumb and has a piece of fluff he rubs on his face for comfort, and will still come in my room after a nightmare or during thunderstorms kind of kid...and then for that foul language and HATE to come out of his mouth..it's just so contradictory. I would love though for someone else to witness these meltdowns. Even his dad has only seen/heard a partial one over the phone. I love your idea about time with the other kids. My oldest is almost 18 and understands the situation. It doesn't make him like his brother any more. My youngest seems to almost target the older boy..I think because if he can engage my oldest, it's pretty much always the oldest getting in trouble as he "should know better". My middle son is a very tender hearted sensitive kid...if the youngest gets in trouble, the middle son cries as well. One day difficult child 3 threatened to kill himself. It took me 30 mins to calm difficult child 3 down...but another 4 hours to console difficult child 2. Marguerite I totally appreciate you taking the time to post all the useful information. Some we've done, some hadn't thought of. I have been keeping a log for myself and his pediatrician in regards to moods/behaviours etc to keep track of how the medications are working. I've PORED over them trying to find a link, a commonality, anything to help us figure out the triggers with no luck. No overlapping foods, circumstances, school days. It's just so random and unpredictable which makes it worse. I know when he was on Ritalin the rebound (is that that same as crash?) effect when the medications would wear off was terrible. He would get that manic silliness, or the other extreme very violent and raging for no reason. We then tried dexedrine...that was a little bit better, but the crash between dosages (morning and afternoon) was very challenging for the school. We switched to Adderall on the Christmas break. It's the SR version so only one a day and it seems to last longer than the other two did. He's doing much better at school in every category. The problem is there's still the underlying "animal" just waiting to come out...everyone can feel and sense it. He gets the look on his face, or the tone of his voice changes (gets lower and more drawn out and slower), or there is sometimes the manic silliness. The silliness is almost (to me) a warning or a challenge he puts out. Like, "oh yeah, see if you can handle this and if you dont' get annoyed i'll ramp it up until you do" We had this yesterday and when he couldn't engage me that's when the violence, raging started. I tried to use humour to diffuse, but it made it worse. That seems to be the problem here is that sometimes things work and sometimes they do the complete opposite so you're always walking on eggshells and unsure of yourself. How does a 9 year old gain so much POWER over people??? I agree with you on my husband backing off. I don't want to sugar coat anything but I also don't want to make him look like the bad guy. He has done a complete 180 in his attitude and own behaviours over the past year. He usually dealt with this with a spanking and fairly long punishment (a week with no outside time). When that was obvious it wasn't working I worked hard at convincing him we needed to do more, listen more, talk more and CALM DOWN. It's almost a blessing that most of our issues occur when he's at work as he has time to process and think about it and come home after work in a much calmer state. He's very old school "you WILL respect me, don't you EVER treat your mother like that..etc" and it's been almost as hard a road for him changing his own behaviour and impulse to spank first ask questions later. He's still a work in progress as well ;) I think part of the problem is he was always so strict that I laid back and almost became the "jellyfish parent" (Barbara Coloroso) and that has added confusion. I'm trying really hard to get to a good middle ground and pull my husband there with me. For the most part we're on the same page, but the overt and disgusting disrespect still has his hackles up. I have read the [URL="http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0061906190/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1299079510&sr=1-1"]Explosive Child [/URL]years ago for difficult child 2. I'll be honest, we've not had many problems with him for several years, so I've abandoned or forgotten most of the theories. I will have to pick up a copy again and see how I can use it for difficult child 3. The "getting in his head" is what has us all stumbling. There seems to be no rhyme or reason other than to just antagonize and make everyone miserable. I sometimes feel that the happier anyone is, the more he tries to make them unhappy. One of his biggest problems is talking. He shuts down when in the rage and won't listen or talk reasonably (which I know is normal)...but it makes it very hard. I feel like after we've got him calm he will then share his feelings but I feel he's making stuff up. For example with yesterday's meltdown he claims it's because he hates waking up in the morning..it's rough for him. I can get that and deal with that, but why then have you had NO problems the past 300 mornings???? Or he'll say "it's because my mom doesn't do anything with me..she's always working or on the computer". This will be after me spending every waking moment with him, quitting my job to stay home for him, volunteering in his classroom 5 days a week etc etc. Another one we hear often is "it's because of easy child or difficult child 2"....when easy child was away for the summer working and difficult child 2 is outside playing. If we so much as put a seed of an idea in his head he runs with it, so it feels made up and fake. I think he may be having problems knowing himself why he does it, so just waits for an opportunity to jump on an excuse. Yesterday he spoke with a social worker on the crisis line and I could hear her say "did you sleep well last night?" and that was it..he was off and running with this newest story of how he hates mornings and can't sleep etc. Instead of ignoring it we jumped on it ourselves and part of his consequences for yesterday's antics were to figure out a way to avoid this in the future. We came up with him going to bed 1/2 hr earlier, and letting me know when I first come in to wake him whether this is a good or bad morning. *had to take a break for school* I too have worried my physical blocking or holding the door to his room will make matters worse, but the other option scares me more. He is extremely impulsive and reckless and will/has run out of the house to be gone for hours. At 9 yrs old that is UNacceptable and scary. I agree that cooperating with a complete stranger on the phone is a good thing (it could've become much worse if he hadn't), but that leads me to believe he is very much IN control of not only himself (there goes the diagnosis?) but of the situation? I don't know about that one yet. My husband and I have both tried finding out the reasons for refusing the medications. He's been on them since October and has only ever refused them twice (yesterday being the 2nd). He "claims" they taste bad, are gross, can't swallow etc...but again, it's a made up concept. The other 148 days he had no problem taking them when 'he wanted to' is the feeling I'm getting from him. We have here in Ontario schools what we call agendas. They are great books that come home every day with notes in from the teacher and students themselves. Behaviour, homework, upcoming events/projects etc. SOME teachers are awesome at filling these out, but interestingly enough, I find the biggest complainers of my son's bad behaviours are the ones LEAST willing to do the work and put something concrete down in these books!!! Frustrating! I had one teacher that would just put a sticker - green for good day, yellow for so-so, red for bad....but never write was was good or bad about it! I never knew how to consequence or talk to him about the day because I had no idea if red was him not finishing work, or something more serious like poking a kid in the eye with a pencil!! difficult child 3 has just finished a 7 week out of school program that deals with ONLY behaviours, strategies, tools etc for kids with behaviour issues at school. They go to a regular school for a regular school day but no academics...all strategies. He did awesome there, only a few hiccups at the end (I think he was anxious about transitioning back into his regular school). I knew he'd do great...almost didn't want to send him but never turn down an opportunity for help when it arises even if a waste of time :/ I've been trying to answer all questions in order but I think I've mucked it up, hope this isn't too confusing! Marg I think you had mentioned/asked about the gap from birth to the 6/7 years old when behaviours started. As I was saying in my first post (but wandered off topic) he was a handful as a child. I was relieved when he started junior kindergarten just for some time to catch my breath! Never had any real 'behaviour' issues that I could see (although, I once had a family member say "I dont know why you guys are so worried about difficult child 2 when it's difficult child 3 (then easy child) you need to worry about - she must've seen something we didn't). JK went GREAT! He is an extremely intelligent kid (which makes it harder because he knows how to manipulate and con) and did well, was popular and well liked by all. SK, same thing. His teacher was so taken by him she bought him an "extra special" xmas gift the other kids didn't get that she snuck to me after school before xmas break. Grade one again was awesome...until about the last month of school. Very little things but we were shocked as he had been such a great student with NO problems at school. From day ONE of grade 2 he was a menace. Suspended in the first week for threatening a child with scissors ("i was just handing them to him..."), Suspended one day after returning from suspension for telling teacher to "screw off" and flicking lights on and off in class and running through school with teachers chasing him....the rest of the year continued like this. I think out of 160 school days he was actually there for about 70..and of those I have NO clue how much time was spent in the office. Through all this he managed to pull all b's and two c's (!!??). I spoke with the teacher and she confirmed she ahdn't just "passed him on" he had really scored that high on the work he would get done.. "probably would've been straight A's if he'd been here...". Just a side note. difficult child 3 (and a few others) did so much mental damage to this teacher she ended up leaving after that year, her first, at the school :( Around mid-May the school ahd to call my work and get my supervisor to contact me. The message was simply "the police are on their way, not sure if you can get to the school on time...." AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I cried my eyes out all the way to school and threw up when I got out of the car. How can the police have to be called for a (then) 7 year old??? Anyhow, we got through and grade 3 was semi-good. We really thought we were on the right track, found the right disciplines, rewards, punishments, words etc. Then grade 4....suspended day two, day 5, day 10, brought a knife - 20 day suspension pending expulsion....right back to square one. Actually we were WAY beyond square one. They obviously decided not to expel (luckily the impulsive reckless kid kept it in hsi pocket and didn't pull it out). It was at that point we sought help and here we are today on Adderall Whew, I've wrote a book here...sorry guys. There's so much more and I keep hoping the more people I talk to someone will hear something that will be the red flag and I can change it and make everything better :( Unfortunately it hasn't happened yet. [/QUOTE]
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