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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 410790" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>That was really great feedback.</p><p></p><p>Just to clarify - I wasn't commenting on the gap in the problem (him seeming to be OK for the first 7 years) because from what you said, I can see issues from Day 1. But they changed when he went to pre-school/school. Why the change? Because he had to begin interacting with other people, and he was not able to control them or their actions. Kids like this need to be able to understand their world, and the easiest way to understand it is to control it. As parents, we then respond by not letting them have control, and thus begins the vicious circle. Actually, letting the child have control as much as possible, in areas tat don't matter to you, can help them learn to compromise and let you have control where it DOES matter. For example, if it's cold outside, the child wants to wear his red jumper with green trousers, you want him to wear the brown jumper because it looks so much nicer. But really - if he's wearing a jumper, ANY jumper, that is more important. And if it's cold outside and he wants to go out and play in such a hurry that he refuses to take the time to put a coat on - let him go without the coat. But keep it handy near the door, he will be back for it. But if you make a federal case out of it, his own stubbornness will stop him from coming back so soon and admitting he made a bad choice.</p><p></p><p>The agendas sound like what I was talking about - you need good communication. And it is NO coincidence that the teachers who complain the most are the ones giving you least useful feedback. That is exactly hat we observed - whenever a teacher tried to "wean us off" communication, problems escalated. These problems greatly reduced when we returned to daily communication. A possible difference between your agendas and our communication book, is in the Book I used to write stuff too, such as "He had nightmares last night, was wakeful for hours and is likely to be tired and irritable this morning." My level of reporting set the expectation for the amount of detail I wanted in return. If you're not getting enough feedback, go to the school and ask for more. Maybe even put your request in writing. For us, it was part of the IEP. It came in very handy. One incident is a good example - difficult child 3 had been horrible at school on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. On Friday, however, he was good as gold. He was quiet, sitting still and not fidgetting and even seemed to get on with his schoolwork a bit better. On Friday afternoon the kids walked to the sports oval and he walked quietly beside the teacher. She actually wrote in the book that he had been very good and polite. He didn't want to run with the other kids, though, and was clingy. The bus collected the kids from the oval and dropped them home. When he got home, difficult child 3 came in to my room where I was, climbed on the bed beside me and cuddled in. That's when his forehead made contact with my arm, and I knew immediately - fever. Big time. I grabbed the thermometer, read the result (103 F) and called the doctor immediately. </p><p>Over time we saw a pattern - his behaviour would be worse while he was coming down with a cold or similar, would be back to his normal while he HAD the cold, then would worsen again as he recovered. My guess is, while his body was changing state (going form well to ill and back again) he was less able to adapt, and the problem behaviours broke out.</p><p></p><p>Factors we noted that reduced his ability to "hold it together" - </p><p></p><p>* getting sick or recovering (from a range of different illnesses)</p><p></p><p>* substitute teacher (any)</p><p></p><p>* teacher having a bad day</p><p></p><p>* other kids in class or in the playground hassling him or being mean (hard to identify but has a huge impact)</p><p></p><p>* class work that is challenging (ie writing tasks, new topic, work that he doesn't 'get')</p><p></p><p>* changing task (including changing form something he doesn't like, to something he likes - it's all difficult)</p><p></p><p>* communication problem esp teacher or child feeling unheard - the frustration in either of them causes massive deterioration in behaviour.</p><p></p><p>* punishment for almost any reason can cause raging, without the discipline 'working'. Reward-based is more effective, coupled with calm removal of child form dangerous situation (as far as possible). Deflection should be used where possible. </p><p></p><p>Avoid "no" and "don't" words, change to "do this instead" or "come here to me" alternatives. For example, difficult child 3's idiot teacher in Grade 5 (who couldn't understand this basic concept even after it was explained to her in detail) would say to difficult child 3, "Stop tapping that pencil on the desk, it's annoying the other kids." difficult child 3 might not have even been aware he was doing it, but repetitive movement and sound is actually a coping mechanism for him and he could not stop for long. A better option would have been for her to say to difficult child 3, "Put down the pencil and come here to me." It changes what he is doing, but not in a negative way. Chances are when he goes back to his desk, the mental pattern will have changed and he won't feel a need to tap the pencil so much.</p><p></p><p>You have not identified any link yet. But if you look at your list, you have ruled out a lot of things and that is progress. I'm betting two things:</p><p></p><p>1) The problem(s) triggering the behaviour issues are complex and probably social-based. Something is happening in his interactions with others, probably at school, that is not being managed appropriately. For us, the kid were mostly wonderful to difficult child 3, but there were a handful who were horrible nd who encouraged other, younger kids in other grades, to be horrible too. The aim was to trigger difficult child 3 to rage, because it distracted the teacher from the lesson and these kids could then relax and not have to work so hard. One boy would sit near difficult child 3 in class and when the teacher was not looking, would poke him with a pin, or a sharpened pencil or whatever he had. I only knew about it because a parent who was supporting as a volunteer in class came and told me. Also told me that the teacher must have known, but chose to do nothing (also did not put it in the communication book). When the parent told the teacher, the parent was told, "The kids will sort themselves out, they always do." But kids will only sort themselves out, if they are sufficiently skilled socially. That kid literally spent years sticking sharp objects into my son, and there is no way he could put up with it without there being problem behaviours breaking out somewhere.</p><p></p><p>2) There could well be something like Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) going on here, with all the related problems. They do learn to adapt as they get older, but support helps them adapt faster, as does understanding and therapy. And frankly, just plain maturity (ie time). </p><p></p><p>Now, the shouting and disrespect. This is important, please share this with your husband. Picture yourself driving home after work. You've had a really bad day and it has been so unfair. The boss was yelling at you because you wore a red jacket instead of a brown one. At coffee break there was no coffee and the boss yelled at you again because you were supposed to buy coffee and milk on the way to work. Then after coffee break you couldn't find your papers, someone had taken them while you were away from your desk. You reach for your chocolate bar you keep in your top drawer and ants had found it, it was covered in ants and you took a bite without realising. You rushed form your desk to rinse your mouth out, and the boss yelled at you again and threatened to sack you. Your co-worker then went to the boss and complained about you. By the end of the day you had already lost it with the boss and been given your notice. You know the next mortgage payment is due plus the biggest credit card bill you've ever had. And in the traffic on the way home you drive into the back of someone who stopped suddenly. Then you remember you forgot to pay the insurance bill last month. And the car you just hit was a Daimler, consulate car. You get out to go talk to the other driver, and a car behind you starts honking loudly. It is at this point that you lose it. Totally, completely. You cry, you swear, you collapse in a heap on the road and scream that life is just too, too unfair. Then someone chastises you for not having enough self-control and the Daimler driver especially chastises you for swearing in front of the ambassador. You then proceed to tell the chauffeur exactly what he can go and do to the ambassador, and where they can both go to do it.</p><p></p><p>What I am describing here is the level of frustration a child can have, even if all they're dealing with is ADHD. And we are increasingly suggesting that this could be more than ADHD (and ODD). Adults often don't recognise the issues that can set a kid off, as being valid or of any concern. So Jacob laughed at you when you fell off the monkey bars? Get over it! But Jacob is still sniggering behind his hand on the other side of the classroom; he whispers something to Jack next to him and they both snigger, looking at you. You get mad, the teacher sends you out of the room for swearing at her.</p><p></p><p>Once a kid learns how to swear (and the best lessons come from other kids at school - my kids learnt some appalling words at a frighteningly young age) then it's hard to put that genie back in the bottle. Also, when an individual (especially a child with impulse control) is sufficiently aggravated, they will swear. It is proven that it reduces pain significantly (emotional pain as well as physical pain) to swear. Swearing is a coping strategy. For everybody. And here you have a child who is having more trouble coping than other kids his age.</p><p></p><p>When he swears at you, of course it is not acceptable and it is disrespectful. But punishing him for it is not going to work, until you can remove his NEED to swear. Of course he knows he shouldn't. But when he is so upset, he cannot really control himself all the time in everything. Something has to give somewhere, and it is generally the people he feels safest with, that he will display the worst behaviour to.</p><p></p><p>What we do - we quietly respond with, "I am not shouting/swearing at you; please do not shout/swear at me." I also often add, "What is the real problem here? Let's see what we can do to help."</p><p>If you think about it, you should quickly be able to find a fairly obvious immediate trigger. For example when you are blocking him from running outside - he wants to go out. Why? Is he running outside to run away in rage? Or does he want to go outside to play after you've told him he has to stay inside and get his chores done? If the latter, then try to say to him, "I will let you go outside, AFTER X has been done." Keep the required task short, only five minutes. Even offer to set a time - "Spend five minutes doing X and we will go outside together immediately you are finished." Then keep your promise and as you do so, say to him, "I am letting you go outside now, as I said I would." Reinforce. And note - none of those statements were a negative statement. They were "Do X, you get Y immediately."</p><p></p><p>You have been asking him the various whys and wherefores, and his answers are sounding more like guesses. So it sounds like he isn't sure himself, of his reasons and is grasping at ideas. That's OK - but it indicates his self-awareness is way below par also. But you have raised the subject, so now he will think about it. If he says things like, "Mum doesn't spend enough time with me," when you know it isn't the case, then gently remind him how much time you spent with him in the immediate past. Or you can say nothing about that, just ask him, "How would you like me to fix this? What would you like me to do?" and then discuss with him how you can work together to give him what he wants. Even if you feel resentful given all you have already given up for him, push it aside. Because what happens with this process, is he will realise that you already do a lot and he hadn't noticed. Or wants more than any reasonable person can expect.</p><p></p><p>Warning - these kids (any kids at a certain age) are egocentric and if you do not let him know that you have other important tasks to get done he will always take for granted that you will be 100% available for him. That actually is bad for him; when he sees you doing other important tasks (such as preparing dinner) he will see that we all have to do what we have to do, before we do what we want to do. You will be a clear demonstration of that. He needs to learn it, you will be his example.</p><p></p><p>We use computer game time as reward. Not just difficult child 3 playing games, but playing games WITH ME. Lately it's guitar hero, and difficult child 3 & I sing along. Or I sing while he plays. It is fun, we're doing something positive together and we set time limit. Whatever time we spend comes off the time he has 'banked' by completing certain tasks Initially we brought this in s a reward for behaviour - difficult child 3 having a tantrum-free day (defined as not having to be sent to his room, but being able to regain self-control if upset) was rewarded with 15 minutes of gaming with Mum, cashable next day. I played a lot of Mario Party!</p><p></p><p>Your husband has to let you deal with the issue when difficult child is swearing at you. It's not husband on the receiving end, he needs to back off. I do get it - my husband is the same about disrespect, but has also learnt (the hard way) that you need to try to change the more basic stuff first. "Disrespect" is fairly complex socially and especially in impulse control plus extreme frustration, not much under the child's control.</p><p></p><p>You also need to learn how to apologise to him, so you can teach him how to apologise. He will need to be led through it, and this could be something your husband can work on with him. First, if you and your husband ever shout at one another or fight, he needs to hear you apologise to one another also. Then next time difficult child has been shouting at you, AFTER he has calmed down husband could try going to him and saying, "How are you feeling now? You know those things you said to your mother before - I understand you were very upset. But they perhaps were a bit stronger than was really right. She is your mum, she does a lot for you. I sometimes argue with her too, and she argues with me sometimes. But when we calm down, we say sorry. Would you like me to help you say sorry to her?"</p><p></p><p>If he can't, don't push it. Always in these interactions, you back off and drop it if he begins to get upset. The aim is to push as far as he can handle it, but always back away before he goes into another meltdown. And where possible, teach him to resolve his distress in more appropriate ways. This will take time and patience, as well as a lot of forgiveness. </p><p></p><p>Your husband sounds like a wonderful man - he loves you, he wants to protect you. But you are a big girl and have to deal with your own stuff here. He needs to know that he is still just as much a protector ad the man of the house, if he does back away from this for a while (except in the way I suggested). </p><p></p><p>it is possible that husband has stirred difficult child up too much, too recently, for my suggestion to work just yet But it will come with time and patience.</p><p></p><p>Keep posting, I'll keep thinking, and we will see if we can help you find more ideas and information. But I do think that if he hasn't got one already, he needs an IEP. You can then use this to force a higher quality of communication via the agendas. If you set the ball rolling and begin by communicating with them at the level you require, it might also help.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 410790, member: 1991"] That was really great feedback. Just to clarify - I wasn't commenting on the gap in the problem (him seeming to be OK for the first 7 years) because from what you said, I can see issues from Day 1. But they changed when he went to pre-school/school. Why the change? Because he had to begin interacting with other people, and he was not able to control them or their actions. Kids like this need to be able to understand their world, and the easiest way to understand it is to control it. As parents, we then respond by not letting them have control, and thus begins the vicious circle. Actually, letting the child have control as much as possible, in areas tat don't matter to you, can help them learn to compromise and let you have control where it DOES matter. For example, if it's cold outside, the child wants to wear his red jumper with green trousers, you want him to wear the brown jumper because it looks so much nicer. But really - if he's wearing a jumper, ANY jumper, that is more important. And if it's cold outside and he wants to go out and play in such a hurry that he refuses to take the time to put a coat on - let him go without the coat. But keep it handy near the door, he will be back for it. But if you make a federal case out of it, his own stubbornness will stop him from coming back so soon and admitting he made a bad choice. The agendas sound like what I was talking about - you need good communication. And it is NO coincidence that the teachers who complain the most are the ones giving you least useful feedback. That is exactly hat we observed - whenever a teacher tried to "wean us off" communication, problems escalated. These problems greatly reduced when we returned to daily communication. A possible difference between your agendas and our communication book, is in the Book I used to write stuff too, such as "He had nightmares last night, was wakeful for hours and is likely to be tired and irritable this morning." My level of reporting set the expectation for the amount of detail I wanted in return. If you're not getting enough feedback, go to the school and ask for more. Maybe even put your request in writing. For us, it was part of the IEP. It came in very handy. One incident is a good example - difficult child 3 had been horrible at school on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. On Friday, however, he was good as gold. He was quiet, sitting still and not fidgetting and even seemed to get on with his schoolwork a bit better. On Friday afternoon the kids walked to the sports oval and he walked quietly beside the teacher. She actually wrote in the book that he had been very good and polite. He didn't want to run with the other kids, though, and was clingy. The bus collected the kids from the oval and dropped them home. When he got home, difficult child 3 came in to my room where I was, climbed on the bed beside me and cuddled in. That's when his forehead made contact with my arm, and I knew immediately - fever. Big time. I grabbed the thermometer, read the result (103 F) and called the doctor immediately. Over time we saw a pattern - his behaviour would be worse while he was coming down with a cold or similar, would be back to his normal while he HAD the cold, then would worsen again as he recovered. My guess is, while his body was changing state (going form well to ill and back again) he was less able to adapt, and the problem behaviours broke out. Factors we noted that reduced his ability to "hold it together" - * getting sick or recovering (from a range of different illnesses) * substitute teacher (any) * teacher having a bad day * other kids in class or in the playground hassling him or being mean (hard to identify but has a huge impact) * class work that is challenging (ie writing tasks, new topic, work that he doesn't 'get') * changing task (including changing form something he doesn't like, to something he likes - it's all difficult) * communication problem esp teacher or child feeling unheard - the frustration in either of them causes massive deterioration in behaviour. * punishment for almost any reason can cause raging, without the discipline 'working'. Reward-based is more effective, coupled with calm removal of child form dangerous situation (as far as possible). Deflection should be used where possible. Avoid "no" and "don't" words, change to "do this instead" or "come here to me" alternatives. For example, difficult child 3's idiot teacher in Grade 5 (who couldn't understand this basic concept even after it was explained to her in detail) would say to difficult child 3, "Stop tapping that pencil on the desk, it's annoying the other kids." difficult child 3 might not have even been aware he was doing it, but repetitive movement and sound is actually a coping mechanism for him and he could not stop for long. A better option would have been for her to say to difficult child 3, "Put down the pencil and come here to me." It changes what he is doing, but not in a negative way. Chances are when he goes back to his desk, the mental pattern will have changed and he won't feel a need to tap the pencil so much. You have not identified any link yet. But if you look at your list, you have ruled out a lot of things and that is progress. I'm betting two things: 1) The problem(s) triggering the behaviour issues are complex and probably social-based. Something is happening in his interactions with others, probably at school, that is not being managed appropriately. For us, the kid were mostly wonderful to difficult child 3, but there were a handful who were horrible nd who encouraged other, younger kids in other grades, to be horrible too. The aim was to trigger difficult child 3 to rage, because it distracted the teacher from the lesson and these kids could then relax and not have to work so hard. One boy would sit near difficult child 3 in class and when the teacher was not looking, would poke him with a pin, or a sharpened pencil or whatever he had. I only knew about it because a parent who was supporting as a volunteer in class came and told me. Also told me that the teacher must have known, but chose to do nothing (also did not put it in the communication book). When the parent told the teacher, the parent was told, "The kids will sort themselves out, they always do." But kids will only sort themselves out, if they are sufficiently skilled socially. That kid literally spent years sticking sharp objects into my son, and there is no way he could put up with it without there being problem behaviours breaking out somewhere. 2) There could well be something like Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) going on here, with all the related problems. They do learn to adapt as they get older, but support helps them adapt faster, as does understanding and therapy. And frankly, just plain maturity (ie time). Now, the shouting and disrespect. This is important, please share this with your husband. Picture yourself driving home after work. You've had a really bad day and it has been so unfair. The boss was yelling at you because you wore a red jacket instead of a brown one. At coffee break there was no coffee and the boss yelled at you again because you were supposed to buy coffee and milk on the way to work. Then after coffee break you couldn't find your papers, someone had taken them while you were away from your desk. You reach for your chocolate bar you keep in your top drawer and ants had found it, it was covered in ants and you took a bite without realising. You rushed form your desk to rinse your mouth out, and the boss yelled at you again and threatened to sack you. Your co-worker then went to the boss and complained about you. By the end of the day you had already lost it with the boss and been given your notice. You know the next mortgage payment is due plus the biggest credit card bill you've ever had. And in the traffic on the way home you drive into the back of someone who stopped suddenly. Then you remember you forgot to pay the insurance bill last month. And the car you just hit was a Daimler, consulate car. You get out to go talk to the other driver, and a car behind you starts honking loudly. It is at this point that you lose it. Totally, completely. You cry, you swear, you collapse in a heap on the road and scream that life is just too, too unfair. Then someone chastises you for not having enough self-control and the Daimler driver especially chastises you for swearing in front of the ambassador. You then proceed to tell the chauffeur exactly what he can go and do to the ambassador, and where they can both go to do it. What I am describing here is the level of frustration a child can have, even if all they're dealing with is ADHD. And we are increasingly suggesting that this could be more than ADHD (and ODD). Adults often don't recognise the issues that can set a kid off, as being valid or of any concern. So Jacob laughed at you when you fell off the monkey bars? Get over it! But Jacob is still sniggering behind his hand on the other side of the classroom; he whispers something to Jack next to him and they both snigger, looking at you. You get mad, the teacher sends you out of the room for swearing at her. Once a kid learns how to swear (and the best lessons come from other kids at school - my kids learnt some appalling words at a frighteningly young age) then it's hard to put that genie back in the bottle. Also, when an individual (especially a child with impulse control) is sufficiently aggravated, they will swear. It is proven that it reduces pain significantly (emotional pain as well as physical pain) to swear. Swearing is a coping strategy. For everybody. And here you have a child who is having more trouble coping than other kids his age. When he swears at you, of course it is not acceptable and it is disrespectful. But punishing him for it is not going to work, until you can remove his NEED to swear. Of course he knows he shouldn't. But when he is so upset, he cannot really control himself all the time in everything. Something has to give somewhere, and it is generally the people he feels safest with, that he will display the worst behaviour to. What we do - we quietly respond with, "I am not shouting/swearing at you; please do not shout/swear at me." I also often add, "What is the real problem here? Let's see what we can do to help." If you think about it, you should quickly be able to find a fairly obvious immediate trigger. For example when you are blocking him from running outside - he wants to go out. Why? Is he running outside to run away in rage? Or does he want to go outside to play after you've told him he has to stay inside and get his chores done? If the latter, then try to say to him, "I will let you go outside, AFTER X has been done." Keep the required task short, only five minutes. Even offer to set a time - "Spend five minutes doing X and we will go outside together immediately you are finished." Then keep your promise and as you do so, say to him, "I am letting you go outside now, as I said I would." Reinforce. And note - none of those statements were a negative statement. They were "Do X, you get Y immediately." You have been asking him the various whys and wherefores, and his answers are sounding more like guesses. So it sounds like he isn't sure himself, of his reasons and is grasping at ideas. That's OK - but it indicates his self-awareness is way below par also. But you have raised the subject, so now he will think about it. If he says things like, "Mum doesn't spend enough time with me," when you know it isn't the case, then gently remind him how much time you spent with him in the immediate past. Or you can say nothing about that, just ask him, "How would you like me to fix this? What would you like me to do?" and then discuss with him how you can work together to give him what he wants. Even if you feel resentful given all you have already given up for him, push it aside. Because what happens with this process, is he will realise that you already do a lot and he hadn't noticed. Or wants more than any reasonable person can expect. Warning - these kids (any kids at a certain age) are egocentric and if you do not let him know that you have other important tasks to get done he will always take for granted that you will be 100% available for him. That actually is bad for him; when he sees you doing other important tasks (such as preparing dinner) he will see that we all have to do what we have to do, before we do what we want to do. You will be a clear demonstration of that. He needs to learn it, you will be his example. We use computer game time as reward. Not just difficult child 3 playing games, but playing games WITH ME. Lately it's guitar hero, and difficult child 3 & I sing along. Or I sing while he plays. It is fun, we're doing something positive together and we set time limit. Whatever time we spend comes off the time he has 'banked' by completing certain tasks Initially we brought this in s a reward for behaviour - difficult child 3 having a tantrum-free day (defined as not having to be sent to his room, but being able to regain self-control if upset) was rewarded with 15 minutes of gaming with Mum, cashable next day. I played a lot of Mario Party! Your husband has to let you deal with the issue when difficult child is swearing at you. It's not husband on the receiving end, he needs to back off. I do get it - my husband is the same about disrespect, but has also learnt (the hard way) that you need to try to change the more basic stuff first. "Disrespect" is fairly complex socially and especially in impulse control plus extreme frustration, not much under the child's control. You also need to learn how to apologise to him, so you can teach him how to apologise. He will need to be led through it, and this could be something your husband can work on with him. First, if you and your husband ever shout at one another or fight, he needs to hear you apologise to one another also. Then next time difficult child has been shouting at you, AFTER he has calmed down husband could try going to him and saying, "How are you feeling now? You know those things you said to your mother before - I understand you were very upset. But they perhaps were a bit stronger than was really right. She is your mum, she does a lot for you. I sometimes argue with her too, and she argues with me sometimes. But when we calm down, we say sorry. Would you like me to help you say sorry to her?" If he can't, don't push it. Always in these interactions, you back off and drop it if he begins to get upset. The aim is to push as far as he can handle it, but always back away before he goes into another meltdown. And where possible, teach him to resolve his distress in more appropriate ways. This will take time and patience, as well as a lot of forgiveness. Your husband sounds like a wonderful man - he loves you, he wants to protect you. But you are a big girl and have to deal with your own stuff here. He needs to know that he is still just as much a protector ad the man of the house, if he does back away from this for a while (except in the way I suggested). it is possible that husband has stirred difficult child up too much, too recently, for my suggestion to work just yet But it will come with time and patience. Keep posting, I'll keep thinking, and we will see if we can help you find more ideas and information. But I do think that if he hasn't got one already, he needs an IEP. You can then use this to force a higher quality of communication via the agendas. If you set the ball rolling and begin by communicating with them at the level you require, it might also help. Marg [/QUOTE]
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