havin troubles with my 3 year old boy

Carey

crazy mom of two boys
great advice...like a neuropsychologist? Our pediatrician, of course, doesn't feel that is neccessary. Do you have to go through them first, or can I contact a neuropsychologist on my own?

Nobody has diagnosed him, his behaviors really just have the common theme of aggressiveness, teasing, disregarding others' right/feelings/etc which reminded me of CD, having world with CD, ODD kids for 8 years. difficult child has a few rages/tantrums each day. Swats at me when mad, etc. I've been able to get through to him this past week a bit through conversation. IF I can keep his focus on my face as we talk about his charts, behaviors, etc, he does try to improve himself.

Everyone keeps telling me that once he goes to preschool he'll stop bullying the other kids because someone (another kid) will put him in his place...?!?!? doesn't sound right to me. I was hoping maybe once he grows a little socially he can come through this without a diagnosis or anything...sounds dumb huh?
 

Marguerite

Active Member
Hi, Carey.

I'm sorry you're having this sort of trouble. It may simply be that he is an exceptionally bright kid who is also very much aware of his 'status' as son of the Person In Charge, and could be using this as some sort of justification for his behaviour. "My mother's the boss of you, my mother loves me, therefore I am the boss of you also."

Add in the possibility that he resents the time this takes away from just him and you, and it could be explained that way.
If this is any part of resentment of your involvement in helping other kids, you could counter this by giving him some unconditional time, just the two of you, maybe playing a game or reading a book. A little each day that he can count on, which he still gets even if he's been horrible - I think it might help, if the problem is simply a need for time with mum. It needs to be fun time, pleasant time, time when he feels special. Maybe ten, fifteen minutes at least. And you need to do it with your other son, too. Again, one on one.
If you can get husband to do the same, take each boy for some special father-son time, it can only help. Maybe you could each take a child for a short time, then later on swap.

You've had "explosive Child" recommended. It's great, it really helps. You can use the techniques with a easy child too, so you can be consistent. But you would need husband on the same page, this will require you two to talk about things, to agree on things. Ignore the possibility of disorder/problem/whatever - you're dealing with some inappropriate behaviours which can turn up with PCs just as often. So, to deal with the behaviours, and to also deal with them in a way designed to really work WITH a very bright kid - the book is good there, too. I'm speaking from experience.

One thing you will find with "Explosive Child" - it sets standards for YOUR interactions, because often these kids learn best by example. So if you treat him with respect, he learns to follow this and treat you with respect. It's a bit more complicated than that, but it's a start. You can't teach a kid to not hit other kids, for example, by smacking them. And if there is ANY factor of him seeing himself in a position of authority over the other kids in your care, then bright or not, he is likely to be feeling some degree of confusion over exactly what his role is, what his responsibilities are and what his rights are. Where does he fit in?

An example here - I used to help out (ages ago) at a one-day-a-week Playgroup. This was a venue in a local hall where parents/caregivers would bring the pre-school children in their charge and let the kids mingle for a couple of hours. Some structured play was available as well as a wide range of unstructured play. We each had to watch our own kids but also work as a group to make sure everyone had a good time. There were chores - parents took turns at setting up, at running the activities, at organising the snacks etc. I remember not long after easy child started school, she came along with me during school holidays. She enjoyed going, but suddenly it became a problem for her. She was beginning to realise she had outgrown Playgroup, she didn't know where she fitted in. No longer did it feel 'right' to join in with the little kids, but she clearly was too young to be an authority figure. She was sad at the realisation that she was growing up, didn't want to let go, and didn't know what to move onto. It was her self-concept that was the problem. At about 5 years old she had the beginnings of the maturity to understand this, especially after we talked about it. But it made her sad and a bit scared as well, to know that growing up meant change and uncertainty.
easy child is VERY bright, which may be why we saw this problem as early as we did with her.

So your son may just be a very bright kid. As I said, this doesn't preclude him from still finding the social situation confusing, with your role as supervisor clashing in his mind with your role as HIS mother. He might benefit from a social story, to explain to him exactly what your role is, and what his role is.

Or your son may have something more going on. As someone with several high-functioning autistics, I can tell you that sometimes in the early stages this can seem indistinguishable from an extremely bright easy child.
easy child was an amazing kid. OK, she was my eldest and ALL eldest children are amazingly brilliant. But she was also in Long Day Care full-time from 10 weeks old (I needed to work, due to our expensive mortgage). I really would have liked her to start school a year before she did. I made enquiries and it just wasn't possible. As it was, she started school a year younger than many kids, turning 5 about a third of the way through her Kindergarten year. Kids in our area MUST start school by the age of 6. They must be at least 5 years old by 31 July in the year they begin. Most kids are older than that by a year at least.
So easy child started school and immediately was a handful for her teacher, because she was bright, and bored. Because a lot of the other kids had also come form Long Day Care, the teacher said, "I have a classroom full of leaders and no followers!"

No such problems with difficult child 1. He seemed bright, but passive and very clingy. He was very snuggly, wanted to be held a lot and would sit still on my lap for hours. He seemed slow to learn skills such as doing up his shoes but people said, "Boys are different; easy child is so bright almost ANY child would seem less bright by comparison."
And he was still bright - he was reading to a certain extent before school, he knew his shapes, colours etc. He had, in spades, a lot of the basics needed in plenty of time. But he turned 5 about the same time school began.

easy child 2/difficult child 2 - a bright kid, maybe even brighter than easy child. And that was a problem - August birthdate. Two weeks past the cut-off. So I jumped through hoops and pulled every political string I could, to get her into school when I felt she was ready - at age 4, like her sister. As it was, she was probably the brightest kid in the class as well as the youngest. The political struggle was amazing, but we did it. And we also did it without her knowing about it. I was very careful about that.

So with this experience, 7 years later I had difficult child 3. By this stage difficult child 1 had been diagnosed with ADHD, which seemed to explain a lot about his clinginess, his passivity and his difficulty staying on task.

difficult child 3 was a bright kid. He was also a very good baby, perhaps because I gave him what he wanted. Food, mostly. He worked out how to go to sleep, you could see him turn his head and tuck his nose in to sleep, when he was put to bed, at about 3 months old. He watched TV game shows at about 6 months, which we all thought was cute, funny, and utter coincidence. Turns out it wasn't. He was hyperlexic. The little blighter turned out to be obsessed with the numbers on the scoreboard, and the letters in the names.
By a year old difficult child 3 was clearly musical. He would sit on my lap when I played piano and he would reach for the keys. Not bashing at it like babies do, but instead he would carefully and deliberately play chords, choosing melodic intervals. He was also using a computer (an old one literally found in the street). He began to navigate his way around some simply software like mazes, or matching numbers and letters (screen to keyboard). We videotaped this - a couple of days after he turned 2, we've got him on video typing to match the upper case letters on the keyboard to the lower case on the screen. He had already learned to navigate around the menu bar on the computer to change games or quit the program. By this stage he was reading music and playing his own tunes on the piano.
Screamingly bright.
I began the same procedures I had set in place with easy child 2/difficult child 2 - this was a kid who looked like needing early school entry. But soon I pulled the plug - difficult child 3 wasn't talking. OK, Einstein didn't talk until he was 5, but no way could difficult child 3 start school with the problems that now began to be more noticeable.

We didn't have the hitting of other kids that you describe, but then we weren't in the social situation your kids are in, either. Maybe he would have.

All this time I had thought I had the easy child I desperately wanted. Turned out I had yet another difficult child. But his abilities were phenomenal. By this stage he could pick up a newspaper and read it aloud, but he had no comprehension of what he was reading and the only words he could speak were ones he could read.

Long story cut short - difficult child 3 was diagnosed as autistic (Asperger's considered) at about two and a half. At 3, he was confirmed as autistic and not Asperger's (because of the language delay) and stims were commenced because he also had ADHD. difficult child 1 was diagnosis'd Aspie + ADHD the same day while easy child 2/difficult child 2 was diagnosis'd borderline Aspie plus ADD (inattentive type).
The stims were almost magical. From the occasional single word (which I had been teaching him by writing them down in a book for him with a small drawing to show the meaning) difficult child 3 went to full sentences within a week. easy child was away at camp for a week and returned to a baby brother who could talk at last.
A year later we were told by a multi-disciplinary clinic that difficult child 3 was definitely autistic and he would never go to a normal school, would always be dependent, would have to get intensive care and therapy. He 'failed' his psychometric assessment (because it was all verbal! Idiots - if they'd given him a written test he probably would have done brilliantly). Very pessimistic.

They wouldn't know him now. He is amazing. People dispute the diagnosis, even his psychiatrist disputes it and labels him Aspie. It's very difficult to measure his IQ, but the best estimate we've had so far is an IQ in the mid-140s, which we were told was probably an underestimate. His siblings are between about 135 to 145, so this fits.

It's not always easy. We switched to using "Explosive Child" and finally began to make good progress with behaviour. Before that, we were using the strict authoritarian approach and it WAS NOT working. If anything, he was getting worse, more defiant, more aggressive. He was also bullied a lot at school and this also made him much more physically aggressive. A kid might jostle him, so he would hit the other kid, or shove him.

Now - he's doing well with schoolwork (except the more subtle areas in English and humanities subjects). He's blitzing maths & science, acing technology and electronics. He's already earned money fixing other people's computer problems.

There is a lot more to the story, but I won't go into it now.

Suffice to say - there are downsides to having a kid on the spectrum, but there are also benefits. There are also the "interesting" aspects (in total - PMI = Plus, Minus, Interesting). If you watch your son you may see some of these.
Some of these characteristics are what we strive for in our teaching. Some of them are standard fare, found in all kids in their development. And some are distinctive.

For example - Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids tend to be obsessive, meticulous, can get either distracted by or caught up in apparently irrelevant activities (such as watching water fall, or sand, or dirt, or as in difficult child 3's case the flicker of light through the trees); they are extremely egocentric (the world revolves around them) which can also seem very selfish; they are consistent and follow rules but it is THEIR rules which they have defined scientifically based on their observations of how the world connects and interacts; they treat others as they are treated by those others. So if you scold them, you will hear the same tones come back at you and scolding you. This is often misinterpreted as disrespect, insolence and rudeness. it is not. But look for this - it could be a pointer.
Good points - for more information, look for articles by Tony Attwood. He's very encouraging to read on this topic, very informative. Aspie/high functioning autistic kids are very loyal; loving, especially to those who show them love; law-abiding (with above proviso, that it is the laws that they recognise as being of value); truthful (they are really bad at telling complex lies so over time they learn to not try, as a rule); are truly egalitarian.
This egalitarianism can actually be a problem - as a teacher of mine once said, "God didn't really make all of us equal. It was really very naughty of him."
We really do not want equality, not really. Not once we meet true equality as presented by these kids. difficult child 3 would always judge other people's behaviour, efforts and interests by his own standards. Asked to read a book to a six month old baby, difficult child 3 held up two books to the baby and asked him to choose one. He then read the book exactly as books were read to him, including trying to encourage some thought processes on the book content. "Now, baby, can you see where Spot is hiding? Do you think he is under the chair? Why do you think Spot is hiding? Is he being naughty?" and so on. The baby, of course, was loving being talked to but I had to watch to make sure difficult child 3 didn't interpret lack of a meaningful verbal response as rudeness.
Does your son do this?

Over time difficult child 3 has been learning "relativity". He understands intellectually that there are different viewpoints. He also has been mingling with other Special Needs kids, including others with autism. One friend of his is also very bright, high-functioning autistic. This other lad can be VERY scathing, very condescending to the point of seeming rude. It's a matter of understanding, and guiding him to a more appropriate response.
Others in the group are clearly "developmentally delayed" including a Prader-Willi kid, a couple of Downs teens and some others with global intellectual handicaps. The Aspies in the group have had to learn tolerance - it's been good for them. They also are all VERY fond of one another and very supportive of one another. It's lovely to see.

difficult child 3 learns at home by correspondence. The other really bright boy I mentioned used to, but now goes to a mainstream school with a Special Education class for high-functioning autistic kids. Both do a mainstream curriculum.

difficult child 3 learns better this way. He is pro-active about his learning and really enjoys a challenge. He's even begun to do well in English!

I hope this has helped.

Basically, I've had experience with very bright PCs, and with very bright difficult children. Whichever your son belongs to, you need similar techniques at this stage. Keep him intellectually stimulated, use praise rather than punishment, give him one-on-one time with you. And show him respect, follow "Explosive Child" and find ways to help him have control over areas in his life that are no big deal for you. Let him learn at his own pace (likely to be really fast at times) and just love him. Lots.

One last thought - there is an interesting Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) questionnaire on www.childbrain.com. it's not officially diagnostic but you might find it useful to either put your mind at rest, or give you something to print out and take to a doctor to ask a few pertinent questions.

Marg
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Ok, if this psychologist is even considering Conduct Disorder (an over 18 diagnosis) for a three year old child, kick him to the curb and talk to a neuropsychologist. Unfortunately, there are some bad lemons out there and, frankly, if anyone said that about a three year old who had so many symptoms of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), I'd laugh and leave. Been there/done that with clueless professionals and I moved on.
 

SRL

Active Member
I've checked out some of the symtpoms of Asperger's, think he may have it...should I just call my easy child and get him evaluated? I am just so sick of them always making me feel like I'm overreacting, you know? because at time he acts completely normal, and people think I;m a nut-job I think. But alot of those behaviors I described to you are alarming! I told my therapist about them and he feels it more of conduct disorder...so confused!
Carey

Usually you will need a referal from your pediatrician to see a developmental pediatrician, neuropyschologist, or to an Autism Clinic. You may be able to cold call as well, but that varies among diagnosticians. I know that right now it's the acting out behaviors that are of primary concern to you but to get the kind of evaluation you need, you'll need to focus on the ASDlike symptoms. Make a list of the AS-type symtoms you're seeing:

Memorizing documentaries, sounds robotic when repeating them back
Advanced academically (give examples,)
Poor social skills
Whatever else you are recognizing (lining up toys, obsessive behaviors, interests, difficulty with transitions, etc)
Include raging/tantrums at the end
Bring in artwork, writing, or videotape of him if it will help support the case.

Sadly, a study showed that many doctors were missing Autism in kids, and it was other parents, teachers, etc that were recognizing it instead that the CDC and pediatrics association created a campaign for doctors to recognize and respond to concerns of parents.
 

Carey

crazy mom of two boys
That list is a great idea, thank you. I will chat with pediatrician ASAP. He has been doing so great socially lately I am having a heck of a time with this, maybe because I'm admitting to myself and close family that he may have a problem...my husband and I are having a terrible time, he is mad that I've reached out to the people who/love interact with my son. I just would like us all to be on the same page, so we can all be responding to him appropriately and in the same way when he acts out. husband doesn't think I should have done that. My gut says he doesn't want anyone to think there may be a problem with our child....I don't know...we have to be more united.:sad-very:
 

Marguerite

Active Member
For your husband - it's very hard to accept that someone you dearly love could be flawed. For a lot of blokes it's even more difficult when it's a son, a much-wanted son to be the man they want him to be.
A flawed son - doesn't exist in his vocabulary. Denial is easier than grief. Because husband will have to grieve, and that is something else blokes aren't always very good at (sorry, all you fellas on this site - but I think you know this is true).

I saw a similar thing in my own family when I first became physically disabled with a mystery illness. I'm the baby of the family, they didn't like to see me in pain. They preferred the fiction that I was going nuts, because that was preferable. Over time (it took years) they slowly accepted that I am disabled and in constant pain. Another part of the problem for me was that as the youngest, I shouldn't have been the first to look and seem old. That made them see their own impending mortality and ageing as looming closer than they wanted to accept.

I had a similar experience to you and husband, with my oldest sister when her second son was a toddler. I was worried about him because he just didn't seem right. The picture was complicated because another sister (who was perceived as my mother's favourite) was staying with us and my eldest sister felt everyone was ganging up on her and her darling boy.
I took the plunge and went to talk to her to say I wanted her to get him tested.
"I suppose mum and our sister put you up to this?" she snarled. "well you can go back and tell them they wasted their time. And you can all mind your own business."
We had a blazing row, loads of tears and I finally convinced her I wasn't a messenger, I was on her side and I was really worried.
What convinced her - I said that I loved the boy and would be delighted to be proved wrong. But if I was NOT wrong, then finding out sooner would give him the best chance possible to get the problem fixed. I also suggested she be secretive about the appointment so she didn't have to field any smug attitudes from our sister and mother along the lines of, "I'm glad you finally saw sense and made the appointment for him." Then when the specialist gave the boy the all-clear, in writing, she could go and rub our mother's and sister's nose in it and I would help.
That won her over - being able to prove the fears groundless. (as it turned out, she did tell my mother and sister she was getting the boy assessed, I think because she was finally realising he did have problems. It was put down to mild spasticity due to oxygen starvation soon after birth - my sister had twice found him in the hospital nursery, blue and not breathing. However, looking at him now decades later, we think he's also Aspie).

Could you say to husband, "I hope you're right. But I need to KNOW you're right and have a doctor reassure me."

If your son is Aspie then he will be in good company. It's the Aspies of the world who can achieve amazing things and take the world in different directions. Albert Einstein, Bill Gates, Gregor Mendel are some names that come to mind quickly. I can think of others you may not have heard of including a cousin of mine, a musical genius who reached very high rank in the classical music world. My sister (the eldest one I just mentioned, we actually talked about this when I visited her last week) remembers our cousin at 15, sitting at our parents' dining table with some manuscript, writing an orchestral score from something playing in his head. He wrote prolifically through the 50s, 60s and 70s. He also in later years did a lot of work with autism, and was one of the first to try music as therapy in autism.

Have you read "The Explosive Child" yet? If so, practice the techniques on husband, for a start. It may seem crazy, but it can work! (Just don't tell him)
I find that the technique also works for large organisations, such as dept of ed. I firmly believe that just as some individuals can be autistic, so can some organisations. Think about it - communication issues, poor or inappropriate social interaction, meticulous and blind following of rules (a lot of which they worked out for themselves), and being reactive rather than proactive. Also, very literal-minded. And obsessed utterly to minute detail in a very narrow area.

Sound familiar?

Marg
 

Carey

crazy mom of two boys
Wow what a great thing to ponder, organizations displying autistic "behaviors" but you're absolutely right! I swear I know husband has some issues and he is TOTALLY reactive, not preventative or proactive. Love him dearly but I feel he needs to get himself straightened out in order to help difficult child. husband's dad is exactly the same. Swear they seem to be Aspie or something else perhaps.....And I'm thinking alot about what you said about the grieving, I didn't take that into account. husband doesn't share feelings. Worries/suffers in silence and alone, hence high frustation levels and low coping skills...I wish he'd let me be there for him rather than become defensive/argumentative all the time.

How is you family, easy child, difficult child? You have so much wonderful insight...thank you!

Carey
 
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