He masturbates openly in school...we can't stop him.

Discussion in 'The Watercooler' started by MidwestMom, Feb 3, 2012.

  1. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Most of you know I work at a daycare that uses some methods I think are questionable including no discipline and you can't say the words "no" or "don't" to our kids. We also can not remove them from their peers even if the child gives another a bloody nose nor can we make them apologize. This is called "Conscious Discipline." Thankfully I am usually on the bus and not in the classroom.

    I just learned something else about this form of discipline. If children swear or talk sexy, no matter WHAT they say, we are not allowed to intervene and tell them that the language is not nice. We have to let them "express themselves." We have one child who walks around with his hands down his pants all day long. We are also not allowed to even address the issue or pretend that we notice. That is a part of a child "expressing himself."

    Does this sound rational to anyone? Is there something I'm missing here? I think the whole idea of this conscious discipline is plain useless and goofy. It's supposed to encourage kids to talk to each other and in the four year old classe, the teachers WILL say, after two k ids have an altercation, "Johnny, is there anything you'd like to say to Joey?" Then the child can speak his piece and Joey is then allowed to answer. He can apologize if he likes, but a child can not be forced to apologize.

    Is this how our schools are headed? I hear this is common in secular early education schools (2-5 year olds).
  2. HaoZi

    HaoZi Guest

    As a parent I'd have a problem with my child being exposed to other children "expressing themselves" in such ways. I expect other children to be removed or mine to be moved somewhere safe when she's having a bad time, I expect the same in return. And heaven knows, my kid can learn enough bad language when I drive, I don't need her learning extra stuff elsewhere!
  3. buddy

    buddy New Member

    oh good grief. I can see some group thinking to this extreme but I dont get who actually puts their kids there, LOL!
  4. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    I thought we got past that stuff back in the 80s and 90s... it sure isn't common in our part of the world.
  5. Signorina

    Signorina Guest

    Not common here either - but I have to say that young boys do have a fascination with their "parts". I swear one of mine must have checked his 20x a day - like he was afraid it was going fall off or something. And he had a habit of grabbing himself thru his clothes when nervous ... I can't tell you how many times I said "let go please" or eventually: "it's not a handle" ... At his preschool "concert" I was so afraid he would be up on stage, singing his heart out with one hand planted firmly on his doodad.

    And I won't say which of my pcs it was...but he did get over it and "part awareness" is a pretty common thing in young boys...heck in males of all ages - but they do get more discreet! LOL

    But -I would be ticked as all heck if my preschooler was hearing "sexy talk" or swearing at school
  6. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    I think "Conscious Discipline" must really mean "no discipline at all"!
  7. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    This place has completely destroyed whatever plans were behind this. We had a similar sounding thing a few years back but it sure did NOT mean the kids did what they wanted no matter what. Isn't there another daycare you could work in? THis one is beyond wrong.
  8. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    I can't help but wonder if parents of these children have a clue just how far this "expressing themselves" thing is taken? This is extreme. And I'm sorry, but NOT normal. Society does NOT work this way. So what are they teaching these children? To be outcasts the moment they're out of that environment?

    I have a feeling if parents had a clue as to how far this is being taken that most of them would be yanking their kids out. Even parents that seem to think it's ok for their kid to hit others rarely like it when other kids are allowed to hit their own child. Know what I mean??

    As for the little guy with his hands in his pants........fairly normal behavior for a toddler boy who hasn't been taught better. His poor mom is probably trying to get it under control and then he goes to school and no one cares which makes it worse. ugh

    I know you probably need the job, but if it were me I'd be letting parents know just how extreme this policy is being taken.....even if it meant I'd have to look for work somewhere else.
  9. InsaneCdn

    InsaneCdn Well-Known Member

    There is, unfortunately, a dangerous twist to this.
    Kids need to be taught to keep certain things private. (we all agree to that)
    Part of the reason... is to not attract unwanted and dangerous attention.
  10. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    The kids ARE NOT allowed to touch each other or even kiss each other on the cheeks. THAT is stopped.

    This is state funded and the parents are in the poverty level. Many are still teenagers. They don't know what conscious discipline is, although the school tries to teach it to the parents (honest!). Many of the families are involved in social services.

    I need the job and there are few jobs around here.Quttig isn't an option. Fortunately, I'm mostly on the bus instead of the classroom and don't see these things that often. I hear about it from the teachers, who don't like it either.
  11. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    I can see why you stay, but I am willing to bet that a reporter or state representative would have a FIT over this. It is just nuts. Letting a child spend the day with his hand down his pants is just NOT safe. It makes him a HUGE target.

    I wonder what the teachers who end up with these kids after a year of this think of the program? After an entire year of being allowed to do this, these kids sure have to be outcasts and always in trouble for kdg or first grade.

    You are totally correct about how nuts it is. Reminds me of the district-sponsored before and after school program that Wiz went to for a few months in kdg. They didn't have double speak rationalizing doing nothing, they just did nothing. Like taking the kids out to play and letting half of them go around the corner of an unfenced area at the intersection of two five lane roads. If you went in and asked for your child, they usually had no idea where he was. The first time I went in and they didn't know and I checked with the outside teacher and SHE didn't know, I filed a complaint. The second time I saw him TOTALLY unsupervised, I took him home and had a neighbor watch him while I went to ask them where he was. They tried to be angry at ME. I took NONE of it. ANYONE could have taken him. Or he could have wandered off. I knew he was planning to leave and go rent a movie because he had told me he was going to and that they wouldn't stop him because no one watched them anyway. I even alerted them to this and was told that NO five year old would purposely wander off because they would be too scared.

    I stared and asked the woman if she had ever spoken to Wiz, because he completely would do that. You could see the video rental from the area where they let him play unsupervised, plus a McDonalds in between. It wouldn't have surprised me if he led four or five other kids with him to go get a snack and rent movies.

    I was lucky enough to quit and get a night job so that we didn't need them for daycare. This was the ONLY daycare option unless you could drive your child to daycare from the school or could pay $10 per day for transport before school and another $10 for transport after school to local daycare centers. This was in the high school and actually was part of a large national chain. They were super happy when I withdrew Wiz because when I complained I didn't just send the director a letter. I called the national office. There was too much at stake for me, esp because there were a LOT of reports of kids being molested in bathrooms and dressing rooms within ten miles of the school. I sent copies to the national office with my final complaint about them not supervising my child. They did refund every penny we paid to them after I explained that my uncle is an AP journalist in the area.

    I am really sorry you have to deal with such stupidity. The practices are way beyond any type of self expression and are just plain bad manners and lack of common sense. I sometimes wonder what kinds of drugs the people who dream up these stupid things are using.
  12. SomewhereOutThere

    SomewhereOutThere Well-Known Member

    Thank you, Star. It gets frustrating. But where I live we are still in a depression. You can't even get a job at Burger King.

    The school has a VERY close relationship with Child Protective Services and are often here. There is no abuse at the school. The kids are simply allowed to "express themselves" in any way they like and can't be corrected. In fact, we've had CPS workers come to talk to us for in services. They know the school philosophy. It's not unique in preschools anymore. My daughter-in-law used to work for a big day care chain and they used the same philosophy and she lives in Missouri. It's the "In" thing to do....conscious discipline. Not saying all schools do it...I am sure religious schools do not...but it's a popular fad that will fade and disappear. Letting a child masturbate or swear is not considered in any way child abuse. Not forcing kids to say "I'm sorry" if they bonk another child in the face on purpose is not child abuse. This is a good example, in my opinion, of how bad things get when the government runs them.

    We have a really bad biter at school, very difficult child. Her aide has bite marks up and down her arms. After she started at the school, several mothers complained at the bus stop to me that their child was bitten. I gave them the standard answer that was to call the center's main office. One parent reported that the main office told her that she is free to pull the child out of school if she is unhappy. The parents don't pay to go to this school and it has daycare...nobody left the school because of her. She is still there. As you can tell I'm not a fan of places that are government run. They tend in my opinion to be very easy child and this program is the new easy child program around.

    If I saw any child abuse at the center, I would certainly report it, job or no job. But CPS clearly defined child abuse and it is when a child is physically abused or sexually abused and they can only step in when you can prove it. Neglect can also be looked at, but our kids are not neglected. As far as their health and welfare goes, the staff goes overboard to make sure they are as safe as possible. But because of inclusion laws, all kids must be allowed to attend this school. We have a lot of kids with special needs. Most are sweet kids. Some are a danger to other kids. I've never really been a fan of inclusion when the child is violent, but that's not my call.
  13. TerryJ2

    TerryJ2 Well-Known Member

    NO. This makes no sense. I remember you talking about this policy before.
    If what the child is doing to express himself is creating a negative effect on the other kids, he needs to be removed. If he were expressing himself by wielding a knife, would you not be able to say "No"? Of course not.
  14. buddy

    buddy New Member

    Even if we assume other kids wont notice or care... what about the HEALTH and germs issue?? Can they at least make him wash his hands every single time they catch him??

    Holy heck.. potty germs on things and at that age kids put things in their mouths for pretend play or just because and YUCK!
  15. DDD

    DDD Well-Known Member

    Obviously I don't agree with the philosophy. I'm wondering, however, if the concept is to provide a non violent oasis for children who are at risk due to their socio-economic status. Or if ??? this is suppose to be a parenting model for parents to discourage negativity and/or abuse in parenting?

    If it's been in existence for awhile I really would be curious how these preschoolers adapt to regular schools when then transition. Sad...but interesting. DDD
  16. susiestar

    susiestar Roll With It

    When thank you was in first grade they had a program with the same name but it was NOT "let the kid do whatever they want" by a LONG LONG LONG shot.

    Conscious discipline was about getting the child to think about what they had done, how it made the other child or other kids in the class feel, and what would be a reasonable consequence and a better way to handle things. I spent quite a bit of time in the classroom that year because it was the first year we were really doing Occupational Therapist (OT) with thank you, plus I was room mom. It was all about getting the kids to think through what they were doing and it worked. The worst kid in class had severe diabetes and a mom who could barely add, so she was constantly giving him the wrong insulin dose and then having to get him to the ER (she was off that much - put him in a coma for two days at one point NOT because she did this purposely but because she couldn't add, read, write, or really comprehend what she was doing. The entire school was terrified each time he went home at night until finally the docs put a pump in that did it automatically.).

    When the kid could think clearly, you could get even him to understand how the other kid felt when he ripped up their project or hit them, and he would choose time out or to apologize or to say he was sorry. It was about helping a child THINK through the process and LEARN self discipline.

    If the child couldn't or wouldn't go through the steps, the teacher would have them sit and think about it for a while, then talk to them again and gently suggest the next step. It worked a LOT better than just having a kid say he was sorry because usually the kid wasn't if the teacher just told them to apologize.

    Your area has taken this (which several friends of mine who live in different states say is what they are doing in their school systems) and completely missed the point.

    I LIKE the way it is done here because by 3rd or 4th grade the kids are showing more empathy and are more able to solve their own problems. But that won't EVER happen in your area because apparently thinking has been replaced by "do whatever you want" which I thought was a 70s thing that we figured out was idiotic.

    Heck, it sort of sounds like a Penelope Leach talk I saw one day when Wiz was little. She advocated that parents NOT set routines and bedtimes and mealtimes. That it was "natural" and "better" to let a child eat whenever they are hungry, whatever they want, and sleep whenever/wherever they want. She actually kept a straight face and said that children will stay up late for a few nights but in less than a week they will probably be putting themselves to bed earlier than their parents would AND they will take more and longer naps than parents enforce. Plus if left to choose WHATEVER they want, healthy or not, they will overall choose healthy snacks over processed sugary or salty high fat snacks IF parents would just stop making them eat at set times and making them eat specific things.

    It was the stupidest and funniest thing I had ever heard. I have an aunt who did this. Her kids stopped napping by 12 mos, slept VERY little, and for about four years they went through a quart of honey every other week because EVERY food item had to have "dip" which meant honey. For fruit they had fruit snacks, those candies that are basically jello that someone let sit out for a few weeks until it dried up. They also would occasionally decide to not eat for a day which meant my aunt would sit and cajole them into eating chocolate donuts dipped in honey with promises of new toys and videos. I heard over and over about what a horrid parent I was because my kids had naptime every day, they had bedtimes, they got fruit snacks once in a while as CANDY and they did NOT dip all their food in honey (which, apparently, was good for kids because it was natural - should have seen her face when I asked if she would let them smoke pot if it was also organically grown - after all it IS natural).

    I went out to eat with my aunt and her kids ONE time. Mostly I stopped even going to their house because it was just such a horror show to me. The kids were in charge and my aunt thought she was mother of the year with an okay daughter and a son who is the best person who has ever lived (she still thinks this and has run off every girlfriend he has ever had by telling the girl how "blessed" she is to be dating such a perfect young man - who is a total jerk with real anger issues). Her daughter is amazing NOW, a sweet, smart, talented young lady who has taught herself excellent manners. But when they were little? Total nightmare to see in public.

    I am sorry you are stuck with this koi. I hope in a year or two it passes. Until then, I admire your patience. I would be telling them to stop and getting into trouble. This makes no sense and does the kids a HUGE disservice. NOT in my opinion, in reality.
  17. muttmeister

    muttmeister Well-Known Member

    Around here CPS can get involved if they think they are looking at verbal abuse or mental cruelty. To me, it is mental cruelty to allow children to grow up like wild animals without giving them any direction. If parents allowed their kids to do these things, they'd be in trouble. Why is it allowed in a school? Schools are supposed to teach children to live in this society. That one is not doing its job. As far as I'm concerned, what they're doing is criminal. They are taking money from the state and not doing the job as a school. How the he!! do these movements get started anyway? I feel sorry for these poor little kids who are learning there are no boundaries; when they go on to another school or the real world they are going to be in for a rude shock.
  18. jal

    jal Member

    When my son was in daycare, a few different ones, they were never run under that philosophy. It's sounds like this program is setting up a generation of childen that will know no boundries or societal norms. I'd be livid if my child was in a situation daily like that that wasn't helping them to discern right from wrong. Couple that in with teenagers as parents and these children are being set up to fail miserably. How can this be allowed? These children will not even know how to behave once they reach the schools...This is so very, very sad.
  19. donna723

    donna723 Well-Known Member

    I can't imagine any responsible parents going along with this extreme approach but apparently they must. If you tried to impose any kind of meaningful discipline at home after the kids had spent the whole day running wild and doing whatever they wanted to with no repercussions, the parents would be beating their heads against the wall ... unless they followed the same philosophy at home! It's probably easy! With this approach all you'd have to do to "parent" your children would be to throw some food at them a couple times a day and then just get out of the way!
  20. Hound dog

    Hound dog Nana's are Beautiful

    Personally, I wish they're return to the old philosophy that worked (ok for the most part) and stop all this experimenting with our nations children like lab rats. At this point, I'd settle for any reasonable philosophy, just frimping STICK to IT.

    I wonder if writing to whomever govt branch is funding this school and explaining to them about this "mission statement" and what is and is not taking place in the classroom would help. This school is taking funds to educate these children. I'm finding it difficult to believe that kids distracted by hitting, biting, and all the rest that goes on are actually learning very much.

    I have become a great supporter of homeschooling in my later years, I'm telling you. And it's most certainly not the teachers fault, either!