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<blockquote data-quote="Marguerite" data-source="post: 374461" data-attributes="member: 1991"><p>Angela - a quick answer to your questions - yep.</p><p></p><p>I think it must have been another thread I posted on in detail recently, I talked about Theory of Mind. Look it up. Here is a Wiki link -</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind</a></p><p></p><p>From that link -</p><p>'Appearance-reality task</p><p>Other tasks have been developed to try to solve the problems inherent in the false-belief task. In the "appearance-reality", or "Smarties" task, experimenters ask children what they believe to be the contents of a box that looks as though it holds a candy called "Smarties." After the child guesses (usually) "Smarties," each is shown that the box in fact contained pencils. The experimenter then re-closes the box and asks the child what she thinks another person, who has not been shown the true contents of the box, will think is inside. The child passes the task if she responds that another person will think that there are "Smarties" in the box, but fails the task if she responds that another person will think that the box contains pencils. Gopnik & Astington (1988) found that children pass this test at age four or five years.'</p><p></p><p>Kids on the spectrum take a lot longer with this test. Also, there are a lot of other ramifications with failing this, which follow on into how we relate to other people. A kid who lacks theory of mind will believe the opposite - that everyone's mind is the same as his, that his mind is an open book to everyone else and therefore his wants and needs should be instantly known by others, especially parents. People who don't get it are, in their opinion, either stupid or not paying attention. And they will often say so.</p><p></p><p>The web link goes on to say - </p><p></p><p></p><p>There is more good stuff. If you have trouble following it or relating it to your specific problems, let me know.</p><p></p><p>I will give you an example. Remember, difficult child 3 is now 16 years old and has made amazing progress. He now understands about theory of mind INTELLECTUALLY. But actually applying it is still challenging. In his schoolwork two years ago, he was set a task in Grade 9 English. He had a sample of text to read and then some questions to answer. One problem question was, "In the set text, what does Bob believe Mary was thinking?"</p><p>This is a classic Theory ofMind question and while with help difficult child 3 could work it out, it was a huge problem for him because the answer was not specifically stated in the text, it was only implied. </p><p>Now, when an autistic or Aspie kid does a comprehension exercise, they can be very good at them, especially in the lower grades. Because at that level, all the kid has to do is scan the text for the keyword. A question might be, "In the third paragraph, what was the wolf doing?"</p><p>The child counts down to the third paragraph and scans for the word "wolf" then looks for the adjacent verb. Bingo - he's got the answer. "The wolf ran through the orchard".</p><p>It gets much more difficult in later grades, when the questions become inferential. "In the text, we see that Jane says she doesn't like the new baby because it is noisy and messy. But what is really going on? Why is Jane so resentful?"</p><p>The answer which is only implied, is that Jane is not getting the attention she used to have before the baby arrives, and she is jealous. But to answer this, the child would need to be able to recognise the signs and to be able to sympathise (or at least empathise) with a fictional character. It is assumed tat this sort of question separates the really brighter kids form the average ones, but an autistic kid can be very bright, but still miss this question. It is because there are different kinds of intelligence, and an autistic child has a lower "EQ" or emotional intelligence as a rule, despite often having a high IQ (although it is difficult to measure).</p><p></p><p>Back to kids competing - I remember when easy child 2/difficult child 2 was very young (I think not quite a year old) we visited friends who had just had a baby. I was holding the baby on my lap when easy child 2/difficult child 2 saw this and became VERY upset. She crawled over, climbed up on my chair and began trying to pull the baby away. She was really distressed and clearly felt that there was absolutely no way that any other baby but her, should be on my lap. I had to hand the baby back before she would stop. And then easy child 2/difficult child 2 climbed up on my lap to make it clear that it belonged only to her. After a while she climbed down but if I went near the baby, easy child 2/difficult child 2 would be back and crying. I could talk to the baby while she was being held by her mother, but I was not permitted to touch or try to hold. This was way more than jealousy - it was fear of being supplanted. easy child 2/difficult child 2 believed she OWNED me, I was her possession and had no right to look at another child except out of curiosity. Mind you, at the same age, easy child 2/difficult child 2 was marvellous with other babies especially younger ones. Although she never used a pacifier, she would put them back for other babies who dropped theirs. At her child care centre she would crawl across the floor to pick up a pacifier and put it back. And with our friend, when she was holding her baby on her lap, easy child 2/difficult child 2 was just as attentive and gentle with the baby.</p><p></p><p>I wrote on another thread how difficult child 3 read a Spot book to a 6 month old baby. He held the books up to the baby and asked the baby to choose a book to read. Then he read to the baby and regularly sopped to ask the baby a question about the book. "Where do you think Spot is hiding?" The baby, who had been getting restless and fussy, was riveted on difficult child 3 and making good eye contact because here was someone talking to him!</p><p></p><p>With difficult child and husband difficult child (you might want to find an easier way to identify them) you will find that at one level, they connect well and respect one another because I have seen this often - Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids recognise the innate honesty and openness in one another. But at another level they can get really frustrated with one another, especially if they are not at the same level. It is actually very good lessons for them socially, to learn that people ARE different. But when they are very young, they don't get it.</p><p></p><p>Something that you could try, is the Smarties box Theory of Mind exercise. Go through it with them (individually) and try to teach them that what one person thinks is so, is not what another person may think and could still be different from reality. However, they may not yet be ready for tis. The brain will mature more as they get older but until it is ready to learn a particular lesson, the child will not make progress. Disciplining for what a child cannot help, is ineffective and damaging. And pointless. That's why we put up childproof gates, or we turn saucepan handles inwards, and have childproof locks on cupboards. We don't punish a two year old for getting into the cleaning products cupboard; instead, we punish the person who failed to lock it all up. </p><p>In the same way, you need to protect your kids from behaviour they cannot help. Don't put them in a situation that is likely to cause problems. Do your best to supervise and intervene to prevent. But avoid punishing the sort of behaviour you describe, because it won't help. Instead, natural consequences will be more effective - if easy child gets upset at being constantly chastised or hit, she won't want to play with difficult child.</p><p></p><p>How you treat difficult child will set the pattern for him, in how to treat others. YOU set the example for how you want him to behave, in how you treat him. This will require a major change of mind set but will pay big dividends. Remember, this is likely to be a child with a much higher capability of self-discipline. He's already trying to discipline everyone around him because he already has his own ideas of what rules people should be following. He is undoubtedly already trying to follow those rules himself.</p><p></p><p>And yes, that noise sounds like a stimulant. Don't try to stop stims. Or tics. They can, if they are really annoying, be reduced. But anxiety can make them worse and trying to stop them can make the child more anxious. Catch 22. As the child gets older, they tend to choose stims tat are less socially obvious.</p><p></p><p>These kids sound classic Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) to me.</p><p></p><p>Trust me - although you will have rough times, overall it does get a lot better.</p><p></p><p>I'd be seriously asking them to consider Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) for GFG3yo, and I would also be considering the possibility in husband. It can be confused with bipolar, and the older someone is when diagnosed, the more likely it is that they adapted and have inadvertently masked a lot of the condition. Mind you, having Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), especially if it remained undiagnosed for decades, will cause depression and may appear as mood swings. The bipolar diagnosis may also be correct, or there could be a constellation of issues.</p><p></p><p>My husband does not have a diagnosis of Asperger's and at 55 is probably too old to be assessed. What would be achieved for us? But it IS our family working hypothesis.</p><p></p><p>One important message - do not try to change these people. You meet them where they are and teach them how to fit in socially, as an overlay to their condition. Autism cannot be cured. But it can adapt. However, never punish or be critical of autistic behaviours. Accept them. Try to help them limit stimming to more socially appropriate times (ie don't make loud noises while in a cinema with other people watching a film). But otherwise - let them be who they are.</p><p></p><p>My favourite example was when we first took delivery of a front-loader washing machine. I wanted to try it out so I set it up with a load of washing. About an hour later I couldn't find the boys. difficult child 1 was about 16, difficult child 3 was 6. I found them both in the laundry, sitting on the floor in front of the washing machine, watching through the little round window, their heads turning this way and that over and over, in unison with each other and the washing.</p><p>difficult child 1 realised I was there but did not look up or change what he was doing. But he said, "I don't know why, but I find this strangely compelling."</p><p></p><p>I left them to it.</p><p></p><p>Marg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marguerite, post: 374461, member: 1991"] Angela - a quick answer to your questions - yep. I think it must have been another thread I posted on in detail recently, I talked about Theory of Mind. Look it up. Here is a Wiki link - [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind[/url] From that link - 'Appearance-reality task Other tasks have been developed to try to solve the problems inherent in the false-belief task. In the "appearance-reality", or "Smarties" task, experimenters ask children what they believe to be the contents of a box that looks as though it holds a candy called "Smarties." After the child guesses (usually) "Smarties," each is shown that the box in fact contained pencils. The experimenter then re-closes the box and asks the child what she thinks another person, who has not been shown the true contents of the box, will think is inside. The child passes the task if she responds that another person will think that there are "Smarties" in the box, but fails the task if she responds that another person will think that the box contains pencils. Gopnik & Astington (1988) found that children pass this test at age four or five years.' Kids on the spectrum take a lot longer with this test. Also, there are a lot of other ramifications with failing this, which follow on into how we relate to other people. A kid who lacks theory of mind will believe the opposite - that everyone's mind is the same as his, that his mind is an open book to everyone else and therefore his wants and needs should be instantly known by others, especially parents. People who don't get it are, in their opinion, either stupid or not paying attention. And they will often say so. The web link goes on to say - There is more good stuff. If you have trouble following it or relating it to your specific problems, let me know. I will give you an example. Remember, difficult child 3 is now 16 years old and has made amazing progress. He now understands about theory of mind INTELLECTUALLY. But actually applying it is still challenging. In his schoolwork two years ago, he was set a task in Grade 9 English. He had a sample of text to read and then some questions to answer. One problem question was, "In the set text, what does Bob believe Mary was thinking?" This is a classic Theory ofMind question and while with help difficult child 3 could work it out, it was a huge problem for him because the answer was not specifically stated in the text, it was only implied. Now, when an autistic or Aspie kid does a comprehension exercise, they can be very good at them, especially in the lower grades. Because at that level, all the kid has to do is scan the text for the keyword. A question might be, "In the third paragraph, what was the wolf doing?" The child counts down to the third paragraph and scans for the word "wolf" then looks for the adjacent verb. Bingo - he's got the answer. "The wolf ran through the orchard". It gets much more difficult in later grades, when the questions become inferential. "In the text, we see that Jane says she doesn't like the new baby because it is noisy and messy. But what is really going on? Why is Jane so resentful?" The answer which is only implied, is that Jane is not getting the attention she used to have before the baby arrives, and she is jealous. But to answer this, the child would need to be able to recognise the signs and to be able to sympathise (or at least empathise) with a fictional character. It is assumed tat this sort of question separates the really brighter kids form the average ones, but an autistic kid can be very bright, but still miss this question. It is because there are different kinds of intelligence, and an autistic child has a lower "EQ" or emotional intelligence as a rule, despite often having a high IQ (although it is difficult to measure). Back to kids competing - I remember when easy child 2/difficult child 2 was very young (I think not quite a year old) we visited friends who had just had a baby. I was holding the baby on my lap when easy child 2/difficult child 2 saw this and became VERY upset. She crawled over, climbed up on my chair and began trying to pull the baby away. She was really distressed and clearly felt that there was absolutely no way that any other baby but her, should be on my lap. I had to hand the baby back before she would stop. And then easy child 2/difficult child 2 climbed up on my lap to make it clear that it belonged only to her. After a while she climbed down but if I went near the baby, easy child 2/difficult child 2 would be back and crying. I could talk to the baby while she was being held by her mother, but I was not permitted to touch or try to hold. This was way more than jealousy - it was fear of being supplanted. easy child 2/difficult child 2 believed she OWNED me, I was her possession and had no right to look at another child except out of curiosity. Mind you, at the same age, easy child 2/difficult child 2 was marvellous with other babies especially younger ones. Although she never used a pacifier, she would put them back for other babies who dropped theirs. At her child care centre she would crawl across the floor to pick up a pacifier and put it back. And with our friend, when she was holding her baby on her lap, easy child 2/difficult child 2 was just as attentive and gentle with the baby. I wrote on another thread how difficult child 3 read a Spot book to a 6 month old baby. He held the books up to the baby and asked the baby to choose a book to read. Then he read to the baby and regularly sopped to ask the baby a question about the book. "Where do you think Spot is hiding?" The baby, who had been getting restless and fussy, was riveted on difficult child 3 and making good eye contact because here was someone talking to him! With difficult child and husband difficult child (you might want to find an easier way to identify them) you will find that at one level, they connect well and respect one another because I have seen this often - Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) kids recognise the innate honesty and openness in one another. But at another level they can get really frustrated with one another, especially if they are not at the same level. It is actually very good lessons for them socially, to learn that people ARE different. But when they are very young, they don't get it. Something that you could try, is the Smarties box Theory of Mind exercise. Go through it with them (individually) and try to teach them that what one person thinks is so, is not what another person may think and could still be different from reality. However, they may not yet be ready for tis. The brain will mature more as they get older but until it is ready to learn a particular lesson, the child will not make progress. Disciplining for what a child cannot help, is ineffective and damaging. And pointless. That's why we put up childproof gates, or we turn saucepan handles inwards, and have childproof locks on cupboards. We don't punish a two year old for getting into the cleaning products cupboard; instead, we punish the person who failed to lock it all up. In the same way, you need to protect your kids from behaviour they cannot help. Don't put them in a situation that is likely to cause problems. Do your best to supervise and intervene to prevent. But avoid punishing the sort of behaviour you describe, because it won't help. Instead, natural consequences will be more effective - if easy child gets upset at being constantly chastised or hit, she won't want to play with difficult child. How you treat difficult child will set the pattern for him, in how to treat others. YOU set the example for how you want him to behave, in how you treat him. This will require a major change of mind set but will pay big dividends. Remember, this is likely to be a child with a much higher capability of self-discipline. He's already trying to discipline everyone around him because he already has his own ideas of what rules people should be following. He is undoubtedly already trying to follow those rules himself. And yes, that noise sounds like a stimulant. Don't try to stop stims. Or tics. They can, if they are really annoying, be reduced. But anxiety can make them worse and trying to stop them can make the child more anxious. Catch 22. As the child gets older, they tend to choose stims tat are less socially obvious. These kids sound classic Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) to me. Trust me - although you will have rough times, overall it does get a lot better. I'd be seriously asking them to consider Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) for GFG3yo, and I would also be considering the possibility in husband. It can be confused with bipolar, and the older someone is when diagnosed, the more likely it is that they adapted and have inadvertently masked a lot of the condition. Mind you, having Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD), especially if it remained undiagnosed for decades, will cause depression and may appear as mood swings. The bipolar diagnosis may also be correct, or there could be a constellation of issues. My husband does not have a diagnosis of Asperger's and at 55 is probably too old to be assessed. What would be achieved for us? But it IS our family working hypothesis. One important message - do not try to change these people. You meet them where they are and teach them how to fit in socially, as an overlay to their condition. Autism cannot be cured. But it can adapt. However, never punish or be critical of autistic behaviours. Accept them. Try to help them limit stimming to more socially appropriate times (ie don't make loud noises while in a cinema with other people watching a film). But otherwise - let them be who they are. My favourite example was when we first took delivery of a front-loader washing machine. I wanted to try it out so I set it up with a load of washing. About an hour later I couldn't find the boys. difficult child 1 was about 16, difficult child 3 was 6. I found them both in the laundry, sitting on the floor in front of the washing machine, watching through the little round window, their heads turning this way and that over and over, in unison with each other and the washing. difficult child 1 realised I was there but did not look up or change what he was doing. But he said, "I don't know why, but I find this strangely compelling." I left them to it. Marg [/QUOTE]
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