Here we go again - Women just aren't "allowed" to be stand up for themselves.

Star*

call 911........call 911
You, um........have a neighbor that "brays"......? Do tell! 4 legged or just an .........asset to the community?
 

keista

New Member
Wow! Didn't think I'd spur this big a discussion.

The neighbor is a NON issue. In My best teenspeak - WHATEVERRRRRRRRRRRR

Trinity, they guy-speak, girl-speak I think ads a whole other dimension.

On this forum, everyone gets to express their real emotions. Those emotions that we can't share with the rest of the world for various legitimate reasons. Yes, some have always shared them, some have learned to, and some are still only sharing them on this forum. Unless I missed a post, no one here claimed to speak their mind, firmly and assertively and still won the Ms Congeniality award.

The dilemma is that women are culturally driven to hide their true emotions, and therefore, their true selves, from the world, and after doing this for so many years, their true identity gets hidden from themselves. As I suspected, the book is what I consider "fluff". It is very insightful into the why's and how's young girls begin doing this. It also is helpful in going through thought processes to undo the "damaged" thinking, and move onto thoughtful self expression, but so far, that's where it stops. So far, there is no "dealing with the fallout"
Paraphrased from the book
Young (13-14) girl is riding in the car with Mom and StepDad. Mom and Dad want her to have a good relationship with stepD, so they told her to be nice to him. In the car stepD makes a racial comment that the girl is far from thrilled about, but she bites her tongue and convinces herself that it's not a big deal she needs to "play nice". but it really bugs her. She works harder at convincing herself it's no big deal. Essentially she convinces herself that her opinions don't matter etc. So at this "girls camp" She learns that it's OK for her to express her opinions, she's allowed to have them and she's allowed to have her own feelings about 'issues' - GREAT BUUUUUUUUUUT when she goes home and uses her new found girl power, how does she deal with the fallout????????

OK, I only just started Chapter 2, so maybe dealing with the fallout is still coming in the book - I HOPE. in my opinion it's a delicate balancing act between deciding what to say, when to say it, and who to say it to. Young girls learn to internalize emotions out of fear of social (that includes family) ramifications. Half the trick is to learn what was internalized, and the other half is to learn when, where, how and with whom it is acceptable to express those emotions.

I think the reason I posted is that I am just so sick and tired of having to deal with the "fallout" as well as playing that balancing game. If it were anyone else, I could easily have said NO, and been done with it. BUT it's my neighbor. We both own our homes. We help each other out within our means and our abilities. We're not quite friends, but more than acquaintances. So I had to play that balancing act of firm assertiveness and niceness. Is the relationship broken? No Damaged? yeah. He's saying that I'm mean jokingly, because now he has to hide his true feelings, that he's embarrassed, PO'ed, whatever, but knows he also wants to preserve the "good neighbor" relationship.

I would very much like to be stranded on a deserted island. Why must ppl be so complicated and complicate things? Times like this I feel like an Aspie.
 
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HaoZi

Guest
Oh, have you tried Pigs Eat Wolves: Going into Partnership with Your Dark Side by Charles Bates? I checked that out from the library a while back because the title sounded interesting, and it was pretty good.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
A few days ago in Australian Federal parliament (our daily Question Time gets televised live) a female senator, Penny Wong, was trying to finish what she had to say despite interruptions, when one of the opposition senators made a catcall ("miaou" noise) implying her firmness with "Please let me finish" was her being catty. She IMMEDIATELY got on her high horse and said, "Oh, right, it's fine to do that to a woman, is it? But you wouldn't do that to a man, would you?" She went on (briefly) to make her point and put down the guy and his actions, very firmly indeed. Regardless of our political affiliations, I'm sure I heard women cheering all over Australia.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...arts-a-feral-row/story-e6freuzr-1226067502768

Marg
 

keista

New Member
Along the lines of Star's comebacks, a friend just posted this on FB I have no clue what the background story is, but I'm guessing it was along the same lines as we are discussing.
"What? You didn't understand that? Here, let me break out the crayons and hand puppets and see if we can dumb this down for you..."


Marg WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"What I am tired of and what so many women are tired of is that whenever there is conflict, we have the Leader of the Opposition and senior (shadow) ministers [aka ALL MEN, some women too]reverting to this sort of sexist language."

Reminded me of a young ADA I watched REPEATEDLY ask the opposing attorney to stop calling her Sweetie, Sweetheart, etc and to PLEASE address her with respect as an officer of the court. Judge was oblivious to it all until she petitioned the court to find him in contempt due to the sexist language.
 
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HaoZi

Guest
That's when you just dish the same language right back at 'em honey-child.
 

muttmeister

Well-Known Member
I have a historical perspective on this.

I grew up during the time (1950s) when women were treated as if they were stupid children. We were expected to keep our mouths shut and not make the boys or men mad and not overshadow them and make them feel bad about themselves. We were told to be aware of what other people thought and try not to ruffle anybody. That was what girls did. (Unfortunately or fortunately, most of that didn't take very well with me).

Then I went to college in the late 60s. Women were still second class citizens but because of a lot of the other things going on a lot of women (especially young women) began speaking out about things that were unpopular and learned that pleasing a bunch of dopey men was not necessarily worth thinking about.

I was a young adult in the 70s when the women's movement got going full blast. At that point a lot of us learned to be more assertive and to take no cr*p from anybody. There were confrontations everywhere and many of us spent a lot of our time in fight mode.

Later there was a backlash among some women. They wanted to go back to the way they thought things were in the mythical past. They forgot all of the outrages that had been perpetrated against women during those earlier years but they liked the idea of being put on a pedestal and not having to be responsible for themselves. We lost a lot of ground during that time.

I'm not sure we have recovered from that. I see strong women everywhere who are ignoring the foolishness. There are role models now who show that women can be assertive and effective. You can find a role model whether you are of the thinking of Hillary C. or Sarah P. You can admire Madelyn Albright or Condoleeza Rice. Whether you are on the right or the left or whatever your race or religion, you can find strong women, making a difference. I think that is going to do more for women yearning to be taken seriously than just about anything else. It's going to take awhile. The biggest problem is that there are still a lot of women who aren't with the program.

I have never been a typical girlie girl. I love nice clothes and high heels and make up and jewelry. I cook and knit and crochet and do all of the girly things and I enjoy them. But I also have always been blunt and outspoken and have had no patience with the girly drama that I still see so many places. Because of that, I have always related better with men than with women. I can go to the bar and be comfortable talking football with the guys. Because i live in a small place, they don't hit on me because they know me and they know if they do I will probably fall off of my stool laughing at them.

It's really not true that we aren't "allowed" to stand up for ourselves. It's just that it is something that we have to DO and let the chips fall where they may. If somebody else doesn't understand, that's not our problem it is theirs. We may have to keep pointing that out to them but eventually they may get it and if they don't, their sons or their grandsons will.

Keep raising he!!
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
This woman is not culturally driven to hide her emotions. Driven to hide chocolate....because others always TAKE it.
 

keista

New Member
It's really not true that we aren't "allowed" to stand up for ourselves. It's just that it is something that we have to DO and let the chips fall where they may. If somebody else doesn't understand, that's not our problem it is theirs. We may have to keep pointing that out to them but eventually they may get it and if they don't, their sons or their grandsons will.

Very well said. (that's why I put it in quotes) If more women embraced their strength and let the chips just fall, then that would become the norm instead of these social games - it's not just with men that these issues come up, but women too. It's why books like this are being written and why I'm trying to impress this on my girls. DD2 gets it. Hopefully, she'll keep her strong positive attitude. Kids call her strange or weird (because she LOVES math and asks for more work) and she'll look them right in they eye and say, "Yup, that's right!" If they call her a dork, she'll correct them saying, "No, I'm a nerd - get it right."

It gets more difficult with DD1 who has social anxieties to begin with, and wants to 'fit in' more. Fortunately, she does have a small circle of friends who do embrace individuality and honest emotional expression. (I pray they never move) It gets harder still with the 19y/o neighbor, who despite having permanent scars on her back and face is still pining for her first "love". Who is now dating a guy who annoys the C***out of her (he'd annoy anyone - sweet as pie, but like dog poo on her shoe) because she didn't want to "upset him"
 
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HaoZi

Guest
Reminds me of the differences in my parents when they were raising me. Mom was "Grow up and marry a lawyer (or whatever) after college." Dad was like "Pffft. Go to college and be a lawyer/paleontologist/veterinarian/insert choice here."
 

keista

New Member
OMG HaoZi. husband and I were the exact opposites. He kept saying the girls would have to marry a Dr or lawyer because of their expensive tastes (they love shrimp, crab and lobster) I would say they wouldn't have to because they would BE doctors or lawyers!

He refused to stop saying this so I started smacking him upside the head each time he said it - he still wouldn't stop! ??????????
 
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HaoZi

Guest
If you smack him for saying it, and he still doesn't get not to say, the kids at least will learn that he's lacking a bit upstairs and will stop paying mind to his opinions.
 

Marguerite

Active Member
I was into astronomy in a big way when I was little. Some of the first books I read were about astronomy. But when I was asked what I wanted to be when I grew up? "An astronomer's helper" because of course, girls would not be allowed to be astronomers...

As time went on I became more interested in biological sciences. My mother went to great lengths to tell me I could be whatever I wanted to be. My father had wanted to be a teacher like his older brother, but the Great Depression hit hard and he had to leave school early and go out to work at menial jobs to support the family. My mother was expected to leave school to care for her parents - she was about 13 at the time. No chance of ever getting back to school. So both of them urged me to go to uni if I could. But despite them saying, "You can be whatever you want to be," when I left school and uni was looking far from certain, they wanted me to get a job in a bank because it would keep me occupied until I got married - when I would, of course, relinquish my job to someone unmarried, because it was considered immoral for a woman to be in the workforce after she married. Luckily I got into uni, but my first career path was teaching, because at least teachers, even female ones, were permitted to keep working after they married. Even after they had kids.

I am so glad things have improved!

Marg
 

flutterby

Fly away!
I used to worry about the fallout, too. Then it hit me one day that this person was making me extremely uncomfortable and showing no respect for me by doing so, and here I was worried about saying "no" without "hurting feelings".

I've always been blunt and direct. I've been told by both men and women that I intimidate them until they get to know me. I've managed to really tick off a lot of people without even knowing what I said. I guess the irony here is that I go through a lot of effort to word things in a way that say what I want to say, but not be so blunt, and I'm still called a xitch. (I never understood taking 5 paragraphs to say what you can say in 2 sentences. I hated essays in school that had to be so many words. I could do it in at least half.) So, whatever. Their problem, not mine.

And Lord help anyone who tries to get difficult child to do anything she doesn't want to do. Not because she is obstinate (which she is), but because she is very firm on what she believes and feels. She's not changing that for anyone. I like to think I had something to do with that, and I have always taught my kids to think for themselves, but she was probably mostly born with it.
 

Malika

Well-Known Member
This issue raises the question for me of what we mean by feminism... Used to be, in the "standard" definition of feminism, that the model for women was men - ie if they wanted to get something, achieve things, "go places", they should compete with men on men's terms. By being aggressive, forthright, ruthlessly competitive, ball-breaking (I caricature a little) and so on. Now there is a more subtle approach to feminism. What if we don't have to do things the typically male way? What if there can be a whole new way of relating and working that is NOT based on dog eat dog competitiveness but on the traditionally female qualities of empathy, compassion, tolerance and fluidity? Male values have ruled and shaped human history. Now women have the confidence and relative liberation not to have to ape those values but to strike out into their own territory, hopefully taking men along with them...
So in other words... being blunt, forthright, aggressive, etc, is fine as far as it goes but it is not the only way of being clear and assertive in communication.
 

hearts and roses

Mind Reader
I can really relate to a lot of what muttmeister wrote about her experiences growing up. Born in 1962 and having four older siblings who were born in the 40's and 50's made it interesting. My mother was definitely the head of the household and very outspoken. Something that really stands out for me still is that my mother would tell us that we could be anything we wanted but, still, her primary focus was on pretty we were, our bone structure, weight, legs, how we dressed and walked like ladies. She sent me to modeling school when I was 13, not because I had ever even heard of such a thing, but because (and I just asked her this past week why she sent me there) she wanted me to learn poise and how to behave like a young lady should so I would be a fine secretary some day and some established man would want to marry me! Omg! I recall getting calls for modeling jobs back then and her declining the jobs on my behalf and I never knew why.

The messages were very mixed during the 70'. While the women's movement was in full swing, there were moms and dads who were still very afraid to stray from what was once considered the norm back then. It wasn't until my later teens that I fully understood what the women's movement was and I agree that the meaning behind being a feminist has been skewed by apathy and misinterpretation. I don't want to be like a man. I want to be a woman whose point of view is respected and who earns the same wage as anyone else doing the same job, regardless of gender...among other things that our moms and grandmothers fought for.

One of the things I brought up repeatedly in our school district is that we cover Chinese history from over 2000 years ago, but we don't study the civil rights movement or the women's movement. Why don't we? Isn't is important for our children to understand how our world got where it is today? What life used to be like for women? I just don't understand why this very important issue is not a six week long project - at least - like the Chinese unit they make the middle school kids do every year. for the civil rights period, they watch Roots and that, sadly, is it.

Very interesting topic and I'm loving everyone's stories and responses!
 

CrazyinVA

Well-Known Member
Staff member
I was reading through this thread again and remembered a book I read years ago called "Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls." The author investigated another by-product of girls being taught to be "nice:" because they are told they should be outwardly sweet and charming, some girls end up being quietly cruel and manipulative .. we all know just how mean girls can be to one another when they decide someone isn't worthy of being in their inner circle, or when they're jealous, or whatever. Cyberbullying certainly comes to mind. Just another take on the subject. It's an interesting read if you're so inclined.

I tend to be pretty blunt myself, and I say what I think (although I do try to say it in the "nicest possible way" at times). Some women don't "get me," I know. My best friend is a guy. I cringe during certain "girly" conversations because I'm just not interested (kinda the same way I feel when easy child parents gloat over their children's accomplishments). I also hate to shop and won't ask for directions :p
 
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