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Family of Origin
Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???
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<blockquote data-quote="Scent of Cedar *" data-source="post: 658243" data-attributes="member: 17461"><p>I would add a chilling coldness of heart, in the sense that, born with a thing that is like empathy <em>but without warmth or compassion</em>...that capacity to see how people fit together would make it a very easy thing to take from them, or to take them apart.</p><p></p><p>A very easy thing, if you see what you see but you see without compassion.</p><p></p><p>That would be an appropriate description of sociopathy, maybe.</p><p></p><p>It would not require a feeling of less than (or would probably preclude that altogether) to justify taking what is taken. Which would tie in to why the wealthy man would not have been enough, or would not have been a clean thing, for you. None of my sisters husbands were that eye-catching kind of attractive ~ but they did have, or pretended to have, money and stuff. But here is the thing. When we have so little, we believe money and stuff are the things that will complete us, that will allow us to live without shame. When we once have enough ~ and they say the wealthiest people are those who live far beneath their means, because they always have enough then, instead of forever chasing for more ~ when we once have enough, a place to live, food, medical and things to think about and people around us that we love, then we see more money and more stuff as just more money and more and more and more stuff.</p><p></p><p>So that person it looked like we could stand to sleep with because he could give us all that stuff? All at once, he looks pretty decrepit and we hate for him to touch us and we don't want to have his babies, once we have had enough stuff long enough to forget what it felt like to be without stuff.</p><p></p><p>But maybe, if you do have the capacity to see but you don't have the capacity to empathize, then that is where hatred comes in.</p><p></p><p>Looks like I am beyond my depth here.</p><p></p><p>An interesting thing to look at in that light though, Copa.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh, good!</p><p></p><p>I love that this happened for you.</p><p></p><p>Alpha female, Copa.</p><p></p><p>That's you.</p><p></p><p>:O)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My sister did something like that once. And it destroyed a life, or contributed to the destruction of a life.</p><p></p><p>And some time later, the person actually did die. And you could not say my sister's actions did or did not contribute to what then happened to this person. But it could be that what she did, maliciously and intentionally, may have contributed to what came next for him.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think I understand what you are saying, Copa. But I think, once again, you are being very harsh with Copa. A young, young woman. Beautiful, and without the strong, well-oxygenated core only a father could have given her, to know how to relate, how to see herself in relation to, the ever mysterious male who is just so enamored of her. For a minute or maybe, a lifetime. And how is she to know what to do with that when she has no core of strength to instruct her about things that are wordless, that pass in the flash of an instant. </p><p></p><p>So are you saying we discount the female in us, that we come to identify with the status quo, with the mysogyny our worlds are steeped in, to step into the male dominated world of financial power, identifying with them to the point of detesting ourselves for the female we undoubtedly are?</p><p></p><p>I think that is what I heard.</p><p></p><p>Remember the imagery of the Latina on the motorcycle in the Southern sun with the wind in her hair?</p><p></p><p>That is how I see you.</p><p></p><p>No man could be that.</p><p></p><p>Ever.</p><p></p><p>Only a woman can be all that a woman just is, without even trying.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I thought that once, too. But I think it is a colder thing than that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I do, Copa. I get that. You needed to know whether it was true, what your upbringing told you about yourself.</p><p></p><p>You had to know.</p><p></p><p>Not hide.</p><p></p><p>Know.</p><p></p><p>It's like when I went back to school. I had to know. I didn't have to do that. D H was ragingly against it. I had to know.</p><p></p><p>So did you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Aha! I am so freaking jealous! I would have been so wearing my high heels.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I don't think so, Copa.</p><p></p><p>We had to know. We had to test ourselves. It was an integrity thing. And we've been that way all our lives, maybe. Each in our own ways...though I would definitely love to have had my integrity test be while I was wearing like, really high heels.</p><p></p><p>Really high.</p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But how do they justify thinking like that? It seems to me that whatever wealth is left should be shared. That seems fair. This thing with our sisters...it almost seems that they want it to be given to them to prove partiality toward them on the part of the parent.</p><p></p><p>Against the other sibs, I mean.</p><p></p><p>I don't think it is even the monetary value of the thing, so much as it is to have been the one gifted with all of it to the public, right out in the open shame and exclusion of the others.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh, good. I like it that you have created success for yourself and your life and your son. I see where you are going with the distinction piece.</p><p></p><p>That is the thing I named integrity.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe the care of that brother, the defenseless need in him, will change the sister?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know. When I am having compassion for my sister again, I will say that she wanted what I had, or what would be the thing women who created their lives from the wife position have, but never was able to find it. So, she did the best she knew. But she was always that way, Copa. Even when we were little girls, she would do the meanest darn things. I think she tries to do better, but maybe, she doesn't know how. So even her goodness that she chooses to be or do, has a rigidity to it.</p><p></p><p>Or something.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think we are figuring out what matters, what it is that makes a life worth living and where we haven't seen from the fullness of our hearts in the past, or where we have only seen from our hearts in the past. We are trying to see and make a coherent whole out of our human brains and our hearts, too.</p><p></p><p>And no one really knows how to do that very hard thing. No one does, Copa. Not in all of history has anyone been able to do that. But we have all done so many extraordinary things, in such amazingly courageous and independent ways, that we expect ourselves to be able to slip things into correct position for those good things we see in our hearts. </p><p></p><p>But where a well mothered (and a well fathered too) person approaches these questions from a position of grace, we are looking in from the outside, like always. </p><p></p><p>So, we are on hyper-alert, in a way. Frustrated with ourselves for not finding the solution and exhausted because at last, we realize and need to learn to welcome, that we are human. And that these are human situations and challenges. And that the messiness of it is okay.</p><p></p><p>It's okay, that we do what we do or that we did what we did.</p><p></p><p>We just don't want to be stupidly weakened, or stupidly vulnerable, out of willful blindness, anymore.</p><p></p><p>I feel different, I see differently, since doing this work, since changing how I see those I taught myself to love and extend the grace of forgiveness to. There are those who would see us destroyed. Why matters, but not as much as clarity of vision. It is so simple a thing Copa, to see them as they are. The enemy, the thing that made us vulnerable to them? It was us, it was how we protected them and not ourselves from them, all along.</p><p></p><p>Even when we were little girls Copa, and for reasons of their own <em>that we are not morally obligated to figure out for them</em>, our sisters never did love us.</p><p></p><p>They never did, Copa.</p><p></p><p>Huh.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I don't think that is true. For me, and I am guessing for you too because you worked instead of wearing the high heels for the gentleman trader, we proceeded from a sense of integrity (or from your word for that concept, distinction) all of our lives. I don't do competition well. If D H and I go to the casino to gamble, I feel badly for the person next to me, who is not winning, if I win.</p><p></p><p>True.</p><p></p><p>You may be the same.</p><p></p><p>Our sisters were the guys hating everyone because they might win some little something, even when our sisters had all the gold, and every machine was paying off for them. So in a way, they are always seeing from the outside, too.</p><p></p><p>But their eyes are very cold.</p><p></p><p>Ours are like, distracted. We are thinking about multiple layers of things, all the time.</p><p></p><p>This could be true, or I could just be complimenting myself (and you too) like crazy.</p><p></p><p>:O)</p><p></p><p>Happy Hour here, Copa.</p><p></p><p>Tomorrow, I will read your next responses. I am enjoying this, too.</p><p></p><p>Cedar</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scent of Cedar *, post: 658243, member: 17461"] I would add a chilling coldness of heart, in the sense that, born with a thing that is like empathy [I]but without warmth or compassion[/I]...that capacity to see how people fit together would make it a very easy thing to take from them, or to take them apart. A very easy thing, if you see what you see but you see without compassion. That would be an appropriate description of sociopathy, maybe. It would not require a feeling of less than (or would probably preclude that altogether) to justify taking what is taken. Which would tie in to why the wealthy man would not have been enough, or would not have been a clean thing, for you. None of my sisters husbands were that eye-catching kind of attractive ~ but they did have, or pretended to have, money and stuff. But here is the thing. When we have so little, we believe money and stuff are the things that will complete us, that will allow us to live without shame. When we once have enough ~ and they say the wealthiest people are those who live far beneath their means, because they always have enough then, instead of forever chasing for more ~ when we once have enough, a place to live, food, medical and things to think about and people around us that we love, then we see more money and more stuff as just more money and more and more and more stuff. So that person it looked like we could stand to sleep with because he could give us all that stuff? All at once, he looks pretty decrepit and we hate for him to touch us and we don't want to have his babies, once we have had enough stuff long enough to forget what it felt like to be without stuff. But maybe, if you do have the capacity to see but you don't have the capacity to empathize, then that is where hatred comes in. Looks like I am beyond my depth here. An interesting thing to look at in that light though, Copa. Oh, good! I love that this happened for you. Alpha female, Copa. That's you. :O) My sister did something like that once. And it destroyed a life, or contributed to the destruction of a life. And some time later, the person actually did die. And you could not say my sister's actions did or did not contribute to what then happened to this person. But it could be that what she did, maliciously and intentionally, may have contributed to what came next for him. I think I understand what you are saying, Copa. But I think, once again, you are being very harsh with Copa. A young, young woman. Beautiful, and without the strong, well-oxygenated core only a father could have given her, to know how to relate, how to see herself in relation to, the ever mysterious male who is just so enamored of her. For a minute or maybe, a lifetime. And how is she to know what to do with that when she has no core of strength to instruct her about things that are wordless, that pass in the flash of an instant. So are you saying we discount the female in us, that we come to identify with the status quo, with the mysogyny our worlds are steeped in, to step into the male dominated world of financial power, identifying with them to the point of detesting ourselves for the female we undoubtedly are? I think that is what I heard. Remember the imagery of the Latina on the motorcycle in the Southern sun with the wind in her hair? That is how I see you. No man could be that. Ever. Only a woman can be all that a woman just is, without even trying. I thought that once, too. But I think it is a colder thing than that. I do, Copa. I get that. You needed to know whether it was true, what your upbringing told you about yourself. You had to know. Not hide. Know. It's like when I went back to school. I had to know. I didn't have to do that. D H was ragingly against it. I had to know. So did you. Aha! I am so freaking jealous! I would have been so wearing my high heels. No, I don't think so, Copa. We had to know. We had to test ourselves. It was an integrity thing. And we've been that way all our lives, maybe. Each in our own ways...though I would definitely love to have had my integrity test be while I was wearing like, really high heels. Really high. :) But how do they justify thinking like that? It seems to me that whatever wealth is left should be shared. That seems fair. This thing with our sisters...it almost seems that they want it to be given to them to prove partiality toward them on the part of the parent. Against the other sibs, I mean. I don't think it is even the monetary value of the thing, so much as it is to have been the one gifted with all of it to the public, right out in the open shame and exclusion of the others. Oh, good. I like it that you have created success for yourself and your life and your son. I see where you are going with the distinction piece. That is the thing I named integrity. Maybe the care of that brother, the defenseless need in him, will change the sister? I don't know. When I am having compassion for my sister again, I will say that she wanted what I had, or what would be the thing women who created their lives from the wife position have, but never was able to find it. So, she did the best she knew. But she was always that way, Copa. Even when we were little girls, she would do the meanest darn things. I think she tries to do better, but maybe, she doesn't know how. So even her goodness that she chooses to be or do, has a rigidity to it. Or something. I think we are figuring out what matters, what it is that makes a life worth living and where we haven't seen from the fullness of our hearts in the past, or where we have only seen from our hearts in the past. We are trying to see and make a coherent whole out of our human brains and our hearts, too. And no one really knows how to do that very hard thing. No one does, Copa. Not in all of history has anyone been able to do that. But we have all done so many extraordinary things, in such amazingly courageous and independent ways, that we expect ourselves to be able to slip things into correct position for those good things we see in our hearts. But where a well mothered (and a well fathered too) person approaches these questions from a position of grace, we are looking in from the outside, like always. So, we are on hyper-alert, in a way. Frustrated with ourselves for not finding the solution and exhausted because at last, we realize and need to learn to welcome, that we are human. And that these are human situations and challenges. And that the messiness of it is okay. It's okay, that we do what we do or that we did what we did. We just don't want to be stupidly weakened, or stupidly vulnerable, out of willful blindness, anymore. I feel different, I see differently, since doing this work, since changing how I see those I taught myself to love and extend the grace of forgiveness to. There are those who would see us destroyed. Why matters, but not as much as clarity of vision. It is so simple a thing Copa, to see them as they are. The enemy, the thing that made us vulnerable to them? It was us, it was how we protected them and not ourselves from them, all along. Even when we were little girls Copa, and for reasons of their own [I]that we are not morally obligated to figure out for them[/I], our sisters never did love us. They never did, Copa. Huh. Well, I don't think that is true. For me, and I am guessing for you too because you worked instead of wearing the high heels for the gentleman trader, we proceeded from a sense of integrity (or from your word for that concept, distinction) all of our lives. I don't do competition well. If D H and I go to the casino to gamble, I feel badly for the person next to me, who is not winning, if I win. True. You may be the same. Our sisters were the guys hating everyone because they might win some little something, even when our sisters had all the gold, and every machine was paying off for them. So in a way, they are always seeing from the outside, too. But their eyes are very cold. Ours are like, distracted. We are thinking about multiple layers of things, all the time. This could be true, or I could just be complimenting myself (and you too) like crazy. :O) Happy Hour here, Copa. Tomorrow, I will read your next responses. I am enjoying this, too. Cedar [/QUOTE]
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Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???
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