Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
New profile posts
Latest activity
Internet Search
Members
Current visitors
New profile posts
Search profile posts
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Forums
General Discussions
Family of Origin
Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Scent of Cedar *" data-source="post: 661085" data-attributes="member: 17461"><p>I am in love with M's mother.</p><p></p><p>:O)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is. With all my heart Copa, I agree. It kills to see them fall. It kills, to know they hate us. It kills, to learn they see us as fools, or as a potential inheritance, or as frauds.</p><p></p><p>I have a son. I am none of the things he names me; yet, those are the words that describe my relationship to this child. Beneath the shame of it?</p><p></p><p>Is rage.</p><p></p><p>That is where we need to take this, Copa. It started for me with SWOT's posts about abusive adult children. That is where I began to see. I don't want to see it; don't want to see the truth in the heart of this son of mine. <em>As I learn to negate and refute FOO shame I am becoming angrier about the words my son uses to describe me.</em></p><p></p><p>You are going there too, Copa.</p><p></p><p>That is why we are doing this thread. To heal and to be strong and whole. To turn our kids around or to survive leaving them behind us. To lay claim to the rest of our lives, to lay claim to the women that we are and to the men that we love.</p><p></p><p>I am so ready to lay that wounded mother persona to rest. It is what it is.</p><p></p><p>Time to stand alone.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is where we fall apart. Right there in that place where we feel we have not done well by them or our situations with them would not exist. Regarding the redemption, Copa...the failure there is your son's.</p><p></p><p>You did your part ~ and more ~ with generosity and determination and love.</p><p></p><p>The only thing missing, for you and for me too, is public recognition of the wonderful mothers we were. We will go easily without that public affirmation, once we stop accusing ourselves.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I believe there is a genetic imperative in a mother to be the mother, to see her child as a child and to devote her life to keeping her "child" safe, until the child is successfully separated from the mom.</p><p></p><p>I do believe it is a genetic thing. There are too many of us here on the site who just cannot let go of children in their twenties and thirties and forties.</p><p></p><p>Oh, wait.</p><p></p><p>That was just me. With the children in their forties, I mean.</p><p></p><p>That was a joke.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have been trying to be better and better. I think that does not help the kids. But here is the secret thing I think I know this morning: It could be that nothing is going to help the kids. It could be that what happened to the kids never had a thing to do with us, any more than kids who do well have been motivated by their mothers.</p><p></p><p>I am going to remember that the next time one of my friends brags about her kids. (Actually, I was just talking to the professor at the Ivy League school mom. She says she was a terrible, crazy, wild mom. Her child did what he did in spite of her and loves her like crazy to this day.)</p><p></p><p>So, there you go.</p><p></p><p>If we had been worse moms, our kids may have chosen a different direction and even, may have had a gratitude bone in their bodies.</p><p></p><p>roar</p><p></p><p>(I must be getting healthier this morning. Good.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>M's mother is a good mother to you.</p><p></p><p>For those raised as we were Copa, we are our own worst enemies because of the words we use to describe ourselves and our situations to ourselves. That is what we are changing through the work we are doing on this thread: The words we use to create and validate self concept. Even if it doesn't feel right ~ maybe especially when it doesn't feel right to describe ourselves to ourselves in healthy ways ~ that is what we need to do. It is hard to know what is real. It is easy to fall into the trap of describing ourselves so glowingly in our internal worlds that we experience dissonance when confronted with the challenges of the external world. This is where Brene Brown's concept of "leaning in" comes in. </p><p></p><p>Sit with the discomfort of teaching yourself your son's behaviors are not only his responsibility <em>but that they are wrong and he is being less the man than you raised him to be in treating you the way that he does.</em></p><p></p><p>I am doing that too Copa. It's a very different look at the world which puts responsibility for the action taken on the person who took the action. <em>We are not responsible for the bad behaviors of others. We are not the root cause of someone else's disparagement or judgment. Everyone is looking for someone to blame. Let them.</em></p><p></p><p></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Every parent needs the love and favor of their child. For the vast majority of parents, the positive regard their children hold for them is never in question. </p><p></p><p>We do not have that.</p><p></p><p>The reason is because we take the blame for the things the kids knowingly do ~ things they know, and we know, that are opposite to the correct thoughts, actions, and values we taught them. The other ugliness to our situations is that if the kids can blame us <em>and if we will take the blame for the things they knowingly do that are wrong, that are in direct opposition to the ways they were raised</em>, they will come to hate us <em>because they hate themselves once the consequences of their bad choices kick in</em>.</p><p></p><p>That is how I see it this morning. The first step in making our ways out of the trap is to expect respect ~ from ourselves, in our own thinking about ourselves, and then, once we stop wobbling, from our kids and the others in our lives.</p><p></p><p>Including sisters.</p><p></p><p>Small steps are okay. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Does the man require loyalty, does he expect a strict code of behavior, does he demand that your son be the best he can be?</p><p></p><p>Maybe that is the answer.</p><p></p><p>I think that is the reason behind much of what we see in our young men in this time. They want to be heroes. That is the male's role, to be a hero. A strong, moral, upstanding hero of a man. Our society no longer allows men to be heroes.</p><p></p><p>I think that could be the underlying attraction.</p><p></p><p>That is what my son tells me. When he is talking to me, that is. Which he isn't, right now.</p><p></p><p>For heaven's sake!</p><p></p><p>roar</p><p></p><p>Good. I don't want to hear from him until he is a hero in his own eyes. That is when he will respect and cherish his own mother ~ when he can respect himself as a man.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am a very white woman. I cannot speak to the racism issue with any authority because I get it that I don't get it. But this hurts me. I am sorry for this happening to you, Copa. My granddaughters talk to me about what it is like to be not white, not blue eyed. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You could do that, Copa. Or, you could address the hurt little girl inside. Can you hear her, Copa? <em>She doesn't know a different truth than the one someone told her when she was little.</em></p><p></p><p><em>And they lied. They lied to that little girl about that like they lied to her about everything.</em></p><p></p><p>It isn't that he doesn't want you, Copa. Your son is too young to know what a mother is. What he doesn't want is what he had. He wants to be a man, now.</p><p></p><p>Wish him well, gird your loins, and let go, Copa.</p><p></p><p>If he wanted what you want for him, none of this would be happening. He has to walk a different path. Love him enough to let him do it without letting it destroy you.</p><p></p><p>Expect him to become the man you raised him to be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You absolutely should do that, Copa. <em>With a vengeance.</em></p><p></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p>No. I think that for both you and me Copa, our sons will come home only when they are men.</p><p></p><p>Good.</p><p></p><p>We don't want these whiny, blaming sons. A man is what I want my son to be, too.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This time is a gift in a way, Copa. Now you have every tool, every reason, and all the time in the world to relearn Copa. It is impossible for us to remother ourselves in healthy ways when we are beating ourselves up for being bad moms to our rebel sons and daughters. We need to stop listening to those negative tapes planted in our brains by parents or other predatory opportunists so worthless they abused their own and other people's children. We have to fight to erase their influences and nurture ourselves properly.</p><p></p><p>You cannot live with or without him <em>as you are now</em>, Copa.</p><p></p><p>:O)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Copa, you are so funny! "...problematic of late."</p><p></p><p>I love that.</p><p></p><p>But I think the truth about love is that we don't get to choose it. We don't get to turn it on or turn it off. "Those we love are simply those we love." That is Anne Rice.</p><p></p><p>You do love him.</p><p></p><p>He does love you.</p><p></p><p>It just doesn't look like what you thought it would.</p><p></p><p>My son loves me, too. His heart is filled with love for me. He just doesn't name it that way. He thinks it is hate he feels, or blame, or rage.</p><p></p><p>But I know different, because I am old now and have loved and hated a million times over.</p><p></p><p>My son feels a great deal for me. However this works out in the real world, he does love me or he would be indifferent to me. I do love him or I would be indifferent to him. Whether we name it love or we name it hate, we are deeply, irrevocably, connected.</p><p></p><p>This is true, Copa.</p><p></p><p>Don't let your son tell you who you are or how you feel.</p><p></p><p>He can feel whatever he likes. He is like, twenty. He knows nothing whatsoever of the meaning of love.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We are going to tile the remaining areas. If we ever stop having company. The kitchen, entry, and dining room are the prettiest slate tiles. We should have tiled the other areas when we replaced the carpeting. Slate will be very cold so we have been reluctant to do that.</p><p></p><p>Maybe Copa, I will leave it at cement until next year when we come back.</p><p></p><p>That is an excellent idea.</p><p></p><p>Cedar</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scent of Cedar *, post: 661085, member: 17461"] I am in love with M's mother. :O) It is. With all my heart Copa, I agree. It kills to see them fall. It kills, to know they hate us. It kills, to learn they see us as fools, or as a potential inheritance, or as frauds. I have a son. I am none of the things he names me; yet, those are the words that describe my relationship to this child. Beneath the shame of it? Is rage. That is where we need to take this, Copa. It started for me with SWOT's posts about abusive adult children. That is where I began to see. I don't want to see it; don't want to see the truth in the heart of this son of mine. [I]As I learn to negate and refute FOO shame I am becoming angrier about the words my son uses to describe me.[/I] You are going there too, Copa. That is why we are doing this thread. To heal and to be strong and whole. To turn our kids around or to survive leaving them behind us. To lay claim to the rest of our lives, to lay claim to the women that we are and to the men that we love. I am so ready to lay that wounded mother persona to rest. It is what it is. Time to stand alone. That is where we fall apart. Right there in that place where we feel we have not done well by them or our situations with them would not exist. Regarding the redemption, Copa...the failure there is your son's. You did your part ~ and more ~ with generosity and determination and love. The only thing missing, for you and for me too, is public recognition of the wonderful mothers we were. We will go easily without that public affirmation, once we stop accusing ourselves. I believe there is a genetic imperative in a mother to be the mother, to see her child as a child and to devote her life to keeping her "child" safe, until the child is successfully separated from the mom. I do believe it is a genetic thing. There are too many of us here on the site who just cannot let go of children in their twenties and thirties and forties. Oh, wait. That was just me. With the children in their forties, I mean. That was a joke. I have been trying to be better and better. I think that does not help the kids. But here is the secret thing I think I know this morning: It could be that nothing is going to help the kids. It could be that what happened to the kids never had a thing to do with us, any more than kids who do well have been motivated by their mothers. I am going to remember that the next time one of my friends brags about her kids. (Actually, I was just talking to the professor at the Ivy League school mom. She says she was a terrible, crazy, wild mom. Her child did what he did in spite of her and loves her like crazy to this day.) So, there you go. If we had been worse moms, our kids may have chosen a different direction and even, may have had a gratitude bone in their bodies. roar (I must be getting healthier this morning. Good.) M's mother is a good mother to you. For those raised as we were Copa, we are our own worst enemies because of the words we use to describe ourselves and our situations to ourselves. That is what we are changing through the work we are doing on this thread: The words we use to create and validate self concept. Even if it doesn't feel right ~ maybe especially when it doesn't feel right to describe ourselves to ourselves in healthy ways ~ that is what we need to do. It is hard to know what is real. It is easy to fall into the trap of describing ourselves so glowingly in our internal worlds that we experience dissonance when confronted with the challenges of the external world. This is where Brene Brown's concept of "leaning in" comes in. Sit with the discomfort of teaching yourself your son's behaviors are not only his responsibility [I]but that they are wrong and he is being less the man than you raised him to be in treating you the way that he does.[/I] I am doing that too Copa. It's a very different look at the world which puts responsibility for the action taken on the person who took the action. [I]We are not responsible for the bad behaviors of others. We are not the root cause of someone else's disparagement or judgment. Everyone is looking for someone to blame. Let them.[/I] [I] [/I] Every parent needs the love and favor of their child. For the vast majority of parents, the positive regard their children hold for them is never in question. We do not have that. The reason is because we take the blame for the things the kids knowingly do ~ things they know, and we know, that are opposite to the correct thoughts, actions, and values we taught them. The other ugliness to our situations is that if the kids can blame us [I]and if we will take the blame for the things they knowingly do that are wrong, that are in direct opposition to the ways they were raised[/I], they will come to hate us [I]because they hate themselves once the consequences of their bad choices kick in[/I]. That is how I see it this morning. The first step in making our ways out of the trap is to expect respect ~ from ourselves, in our own thinking about ourselves, and then, once we stop wobbling, from our kids and the others in our lives. Including sisters. Small steps are okay. Does the man require loyalty, does he expect a strict code of behavior, does he demand that your son be the best he can be? Maybe that is the answer. I think that is the reason behind much of what we see in our young men in this time. They want to be heroes. That is the male's role, to be a hero. A strong, moral, upstanding hero of a man. Our society no longer allows men to be heroes. I think that could be the underlying attraction. That is what my son tells me. When he is talking to me, that is. Which he isn't, right now. For heaven's sake! roar Good. I don't want to hear from him until he is a hero in his own eyes. That is when he will respect and cherish his own mother ~ when he can respect himself as a man. I am a very white woman. I cannot speak to the racism issue with any authority because I get it that I don't get it. But this hurts me. I am sorry for this happening to you, Copa. My granddaughters talk to me about what it is like to be not white, not blue eyed. You could do that, Copa. Or, you could address the hurt little girl inside. Can you hear her, Copa? [I]She doesn't know a different truth than the one someone told her when she was little.[/I] [I]And they lied. They lied to that little girl about that like they lied to her about everything.[/I] It isn't that he doesn't want you, Copa. Your son is too young to know what a mother is. What he doesn't want is what he had. He wants to be a man, now. Wish him well, gird your loins, and let go, Copa. If he wanted what you want for him, none of this would be happening. He has to walk a different path. Love him enough to let him do it without letting it destroy you. Expect him to become the man you raised him to be. You absolutely should do that, Copa. [I]With a vengeance.[/I] [I] [/I] No. I think that for both you and me Copa, our sons will come home only when they are men. Good. We don't want these whiny, blaming sons. A man is what I want my son to be, too. This time is a gift in a way, Copa. Now you have every tool, every reason, and all the time in the world to relearn Copa. It is impossible for us to remother ourselves in healthy ways when we are beating ourselves up for being bad moms to our rebel sons and daughters. We need to stop listening to those negative tapes planted in our brains by parents or other predatory opportunists so worthless they abused their own and other people's children. We have to fight to erase their influences and nurture ourselves properly. You cannot live with or without him [I]as you are now[/I], Copa. :O) Copa, you are so funny! "...problematic of late." I love that. But I think the truth about love is that we don't get to choose it. We don't get to turn it on or turn it off. "Those we love are simply those we love." That is Anne Rice. You do love him. He does love you. It just doesn't look like what you thought it would. My son loves me, too. His heart is filled with love for me. He just doesn't name it that way. He thinks it is hate he feels, or blame, or rage. But I know different, because I am old now and have loved and hated a million times over. My son feels a great deal for me. However this works out in the real world, he does love me or he would be indifferent to me. I do love him or I would be indifferent to him. Whether we name it love or we name it hate, we are deeply, irrevocably, connected. This is true, Copa. Don't let your son tell you who you are or how you feel. He can feel whatever he likes. He is like, twenty. He knows nothing whatsoever of the meaning of love. We are going to tile the remaining areas. If we ever stop having company. The kitchen, entry, and dining room are the prettiest slate tiles. We should have tiled the other areas when we replaced the carpeting. Slate will be very cold so we have been reluctant to do that. Maybe Copa, I will leave it at cement until next year when we come back. That is an excellent idea. Cedar [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
General Discussions
Family of Origin
Hey, Cedar, or anyone interested in FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Cedar, WHY NOW???
Top